No GRRM Script for Season 6

[Dofs]

ooh, now you've got my conspiratorial brain working. Did Martin cleverly give the TV show people the standard fantasy ending he was never planning on doing? That would be genius ;)

"Uh, yeah, so Dany rides in on her dragons, marries Jon, and they live happily ever after and no more Stark children die at all. Yup, that's it. No one will see it coming... trust me, it'll be great."

meanwhile the real ending is Sam as Azor Ahai, Jon and Dany both dead, the others are the good guys, etc. Everyone is a winner.

I doubt Martin would ever do it. One of the reasons he gave D&D the ending was so that they could finish the story in case something happens to him. Thus it would be weird for him to give D&D a fake ending. That's what D&D said in the interview about the whole thing:

"We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it."

Basically different ending may be the result of Martin's 'gardener' approach of writing the story.

[LmL]

I doubt Martin would ever do it. One of the reasons he gave D&D the ending was so that they could finish the story in case something happens to him. Thus it would be weird for him to give D&D a fake ending. That's what D&D said in the interview about the whole thing:

"We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it."

Basically different ending may be the result of Martin's 'gardener' approach of writing the story.

Right on, thanks for that quote from D&D there. I was mostly speaking tongue in cheek, obviously Martin would never do some so deceptive. He obviously wants to continue working on TV stuff, as we've seen with his involvement in the Captain Cosmos HBO project.

As for the gardener thing, I think sometimes that can be overstated. Any good author will tell you that you have to know where you're going to end before you start - particularly on a project of this scale and scope. That's what Martin has said - he's knows approximately where he is going, but the route is discovered as he goes. So I'm pretty sure the broad strokes are the broad strokes. But as Annara Snow said so well two posts up (great comments btw, Annara :), the show is so different that there's only so much it can spoil.

[ladyprudence03]

I think it's for the best that GRRM doesn't write the script of season 6. I mean: come on. We're waiting for so long now. I want to know how GOT continues. Will Jon survive or not???

[marsyao]

This tells a lot, since from now one, the show would deviate from the original novel to such a degree that GRRM no longer think proper to write for it anymore

[LmL]

This tells a lot, since from now one, the show would deviate from the original novel to such a degree that GRRM no longer think proper to write for it anymore

Yes,with each passing episode the concerns of the show "spoiling" the book seem more and more meaningless. The show isn't an adaptation at this point.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

This.

I'm not really worried about the show "spoiling" the books. Knowing some "broad strokes" about the plot will not mean that I won't enjoy finding out how and why it happens in the books, in addition to hundreds of details, minor subplots, character development and other things that will never make it into the show. After all, I had been spoiled on Ned's death before I even started reading AGOT, I had been spoiled on the Red Wedding, but that didn't make it any less interesting to read the books and those moments any less powerful. And with the show diverging more and more, chances are that the interpretations of these plot points will be radically different in books and the show.

After all, we still read and watch various different productions of Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Macbeth or Othello, even though we all know the plot. We watch drastically different adaptations of classic novels, and even more drastically different interpretations of historical events in various historical fiction works - even though we know "how it ends".

I'm sure D&D mean it when they say that the show will have the "same" ending and follow the same "broad strokes" plot-wise, but that doesn't mean it will be the same story. How can it be the "same" when you change characterizations and play fast and loose with character motivations, development and dynamics, when you merge different characters, add storylines, cut storylines, change characters' fates, and often drastically change (or ignore) the themes?

If the same "broad strokes" of the plot and the same ending made the stories "same", then people would think that Shakespeare's Richard III, Sharon Key Penman's novel The Sunne in Splendour and the TV series The White Queen/Philipa Gregory's books it was based on, are all the same story... except, of course, nobody in the world would ever say that.

+1

[Visenya Stark]

Personally, I'm glad he's not writing for the show. It'll give him more time to work on TWOW.

[sj4iy]

This tells a lot, since from now one, the show would deviate from the original novel to such a degree that GRRM no longer think proper to write for it anymore

Exactly! I mean, it's not like he has anything better to do- this is obviously a judgment call based on his personal feelings about the show!

Or maybe people should stop projecting their OWN feelings onto the situation, and instead, take what the man says as the truth. Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding. Except there's absolutely nothing to support such an accusation. And how awful would it be to be Martin and say "well, I'm trying to finish a book" and have people twist it into some ridiculous conspiracy theory?

If Martin dislikes what the show has done so much that he wants nothing to do with it- he'll say it. He's never been afraid to criticize it before- there's no reason to believe he would use this, of all things, to passive-aggressively drop hints that he's displeased with the show.

I, myself, won't presume to know what the man thinks unless he outright says it. I can't believe so many here would.

[Annara Snow]

Exactly! I mean, it's not like he has anything better to do- this is obviously a judgment call based on his personal feelings about the show!

Or maybe people should stop projecting their OWN feelings onto the situation, and instead, take what the man says as the truth. Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding. Except there's absolutely nothing to support such an accusation. And how awful would it be to be Martin and say "well, I'm trying to finish a book" and have people twist it into some ridiculous conspiracy theory?

If Martin dislikes what the show has done so much that he wants nothing to do with it- he'll say it. He's never been afraid to criticize it before- there's no reason to believe he would use this, of all things, to passive-aggressively drop hints that he's displeased with the show.

I, myself, won't presume to know what the man thinks unless he outright says it. I can't believe so many here would.

It doesn't have to mean he dislikes it. But he's already explained before that writing a script for the show takes a lot of his time because, not only does he need to get his mind back to the storylines he wrote many years ago, he also needs to adjust his mindset to where the show characters and storylines are, and try to keep them separate. It makes sense that, with the deviations becoming larger and larger, it would become even more difficult, so he is happier to let the show be D&D's thing, and focus on his own work.

[sj4iy]

It doesn't have to mean he dislikes it. But he's already explained before that writing a script for the show takes a lot of his time because, not only does he need to get his mind back to the storylines he wrote many years ago, he also needs to adjust his mindset to where the show characters and storylines are, and try to keep them separate. It makes sense that, with the deviations becoming larger and larger, it would become even more difficult, so he is happier to let the show be D&D's thing, and focus on his own work.

Well, that's very different from saying "He hates the show and doesn't want to work on it". I just dislike when people attribute their own feelings towards the show to Martin.

[Cas Stark]

Well, that's very different from saying "He hates the show and doesn't want to work on it". I just dislike when people attribute their own feelings towards the show to Martin.

GRRM being disenchanted with the show is a valid interpretation of his actions and statements.

He is releasing Winds chapters that correspond to what the show is doing.

He is pointedly noting that characters who are dying in the show stay alive in the books, even going so far as to say he might CHANGE THE STORY in a way that it would be impossible for the show to do since they've already killed the character--sorry, this strikes me as passive aggressive, otherwise, why say it publicly?

And he is no longer writing for the show or visiting the set or involved on any level with it as far as I understand other than getting the EP credit.

Taken together, it is not an outlandish interpretation to believe that the relationship between Martin and the D's isn't what it was at the beginning. Of course this theory could be wrong also, but it's not out of left field as some like to claim.

[Prince of the North]

Exactly! I mean, it's not like he has anything better to do- this is obviously a judgment call based on his personal feelings about the show!

Or maybe people should stop projecting their OWN feelings onto the situation, and instead, take what the man says as the truth. Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding. Except there's absolutely nothing to support such an accusation. And how awful would it be to be Martin and say "well, I'm trying to finish a book" and have people twist it into some ridiculous conspiracy theory?

I respectfully disagree with you here and I would point out that you are doing the very thing you're railing against when you say "Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding." That's just as much of a leap and an over-generalization as anything else. I'm certainly not "hoping" for it but I do believe there's something here so please don't paint me with that overly broad brush of yours. It comes across a bit like you're simply constructing your own strawman to marginalize opinions you don't agree with.

I do believe Martin is distancing himself more and more from the show and not simply because he's no longer writing for it. There're a few other things that lead me to believe this as well: releasing "Mercy" just before dialogue from it was used for Arya in season 4; releasing "Alayne I" just before Sansa's story line was majorly changed in season 5; and talking about logically/organically doing something "big" with a character in the books that the show can no longer do because they've eliminated that character already. There's just a bit too much "coincidence" there for me.

If Martin dislikes what the show has done so much that he wants nothing to do with it- he'll say it. He's never been afraid to criticize it before- there's no reason to believe he would use this, of all things, to passive-aggressively drop hints that he's displeased with the show.

I, myself, won't presume to know what the man thinks unless he outright says it. I can't believe so many here would.

I seriously doubt Martin will come out and completely eviscerate the show. He's on record as saying he doesn't really like people who sell the rights to their work and then complain about what was done with it (and, let's remember, Martin's makin' some bank on this whole deal). I assume you are talking about when Martin had to tell everyone that he didn't write the Jaime and Cercei sept sex scene like the show portrayed it when you say Martin has no problem saying he dislikes the show? If you are talking about other instances I'd love to be reminded of them.

ETA: Looks like Cas Stark just beat me to it. I think Cas makes a great point that it might mean something and it might mean nothing but it's certainly not a completely unreasonable interpretation of these several things taken together.

[sj4iy]

I respectfully disagree with you here and I would point out that you are doing the very thing you're railing against when you say "Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding." That's just as much of a leap and an over-generalization as anything else. I'm certainly not "hoping" for it but I do believe there's something here so please don't paint me with that overly broad brush of yours. It comes across a bit like you're simply constructing your own strawman to marginalize opinions you don't agree with.

I do believe Martin is distancing himself more and more from the show and not simply because he's no longer writing for it. There're a few other things that lead me to believe this as well: releasing "Mercy" just before dialogue from it was used for Arya in season 4; releasing "Alayne I" just before Sansa's story line was majorly changed in season 5; and talking about logically/organically doing something "big" with a character in the books that the show can no longer do because they've eliminated that character already. There's just a bit too much "coincidence" there for me.

I seriously doubt Martin will come out and completely eviscerate the show. He's on record as saying he doesn't really like people who sell the rights to their work and then complain about what was done with it (and, let's remember, Martin's makin' some bank on this whole deal). I assume you are talking about when Martin had to tell everyone that he didn't write the Jaime and Cercei sept sex scene like the show portrayed it when you say Martin has no problem saying he dislikes the show? If you are talking about other instances I'd love to be reminded of them.

ETA: Looks like Cas Stark just beat me to it. I think Cas makes a great point that it might mean something and it might mean nothing but it's certainly not a completely unreasonable interpretation of these several things taken together.

It's not a leap.

People saying "OMG, it might mean something!" when they have no evidence of any such thing is nothing more than making conspiracy theories out of nothing. Just like the twitter debacle last christmas.

The man has never said "I dislike the show and dislike what they are doing with it". Until he DOES, then there's no reason whatsoever to claim that he does.

[protar]

Even as far back as Martin's uncomfortable comments about Talisa there's been evidence that his view of the show is not as rosy as it once was. And I seem to recall some fairly snide comments about the Martells as well on his not a blog. Plus the whole "Oh yeah I'm totally putting in an awesome twist that the show can't possibly do Mwuhaha!" is about as close as Martin can get to openly expressing dislike for the show without actually doing it. That's a clear "take that" against the show.

ETA:

It's not a leap.

People saying "OMG, it might mean something!" when they have no evidence of any such thing is nothing more than making conspiracy theories out of nothing. Just like the twitter debacle last christmas.

The man has never said "I dislike the show and dislike what they are doing with it". Until he DOES, then there's no reason whatsoever to claim that he does.

There is no reason to be absolutely certain that he dislikes the show. But come on now, people don't always mean exactly what they say. Even if Martin hates the show he isn't going to say so publicly, because he's decried that sort of behaviour from authors in the past. Taking everything that Martin says at face value is just naive. There is no confirmation that he dislikes the show. But there is plenty of evidence.

[Cas Stark]

It's not a leap.

People saying "OMG, it might mean something!" when they have no evidence of any such thing is nothing more than making conspiracy theories out of nothing. Just like the twitter debacle last christmas.

The man has never said "I dislike the show and dislike what they are doing with it". Until he DOES, then there's no reason whatsoever to claim that he does.

He will never say it that directly, not in this decade anyway. People often drop hints, they make oblilque references, they talk around the main issue, and leave the audience to read between the lines or not.

Some people believe this is what he's doing, you don't, that doesn't make it a conspiracy theory, especially since the entertainment industry is notorious for people straight up lying in public about all kinds of things, so the idea that he's signalling some disatisfaction is a valid interpretation.

[LmL]

I respectfully disagree with you here and I would point out that you are doing the very thing you're railing against when you say "Dear god, the amount of people here somehow HOPING for some internal conflict between Martin and the showrunners is astounding." That's just as much of a leap and an over-generalization as anything else. I'm certainly not "hoping" for it but I do believe there's something here so please don't paint me with that overly broad brush of yours. It comes across a bit like you're simply constructing your own strawman to marginalize opinions you don't agree with.

I do believe Martin is distancing himself more and more from the show and not simply because he's no longer writing for it. There're a few other things that lead me to believe this as well: releasing "Mercy" just before dialogue from it was used for Arya in season 4; releasing "Alayne I" just before Sansa's story line was majorly changed in season 5; and talking about logically/organically doing something "big" with a character in the books that the show can no longer do because they've eliminated that character already. There's just a bit too much "coincidence" there for me.

I seriously doubt Martin will come out and completely eviscerate the show. He's on record as saying he doesn't really like people who sell the rights to their work and then complain about what was done with it (and, let's remember, Martin's makin' some bank on this whole deal). I assume you are talking about when Martin had to tell everyone that he didn't write the Jaime and Cercei sept sex scene like the show portrayed it when you say Martin has no problem saying he dislikes the show? If you are talking about other instances I'd love to be reminded of them.

ETA: Looks like Cas Stark just beat me to it. I think Cas makes a great point that it might mean something and it might mean nothing but it's certainly not a completely unreasonable interpretation of these several things taken together.

Completely agree. It's silly to say there's no evidence. This is a common board problem - people disagree with someone's conclusion, but instead of just disagreeing, they have to attempt undermine the validity of even taking a contrary position by claiming there is "no evidence whatsoever," when clearly there is reason to at least wonder about the state of their relationship.

Personally, I feel like this kind of hyperbole undermines your own credibility.

The notion that George would definitely come out and say if he disagrees with the show direction seems contrary to his pattern of behavior, as noted above. He never comes out and slams the show, because that would be unprofessional and ungrateful. Instead he very subtlety and tactfully mentions that something is a little different, and talks about different interpretations of famous literature in the past.

I am pretty sure George notices all the problems with the show that we do or that people do, but I am pretty sure he's come to terms with it. His readership has quadrupled since the show started, on top of whatever HBO is paying him. When he signed off an HBO doing an adaptation, he surely knew what would happen - he used to work in Hollywood, he knows the deal. He's fine with it, of course. He's secure in the knowledge his books are doing something that the show cannot and will not, so he's fine to let the show be why it wants, travesty or otherwise.

But he would never come out and slam the show, that's just unprofessional - that doesn't indicate he's happy with the show.

I'm sure he's grateful for everything the show has done for his career. Even when the show pisses me off, I'm still glad it exists because it made my favorite author a huge success, and I am happy for him.

[Prince of the North]

It's not a leap.

People saying "OMG, it might mean something!" when they have no evidence of any such thing is nothing more than making conspiracy theories out of nothing. Just like the twitter debacle last christmas.

The man has never said "I dislike the show and dislike what they are doing with it". Until he DOES, then there's no reason whatsoever to claim that he does.

Yes, it's a leap and an over-generalization and an attempt at strawmanning, at least, my position on this (and I suspect many others'). You don't seem to make any accommodations here that there may be those of us who, while not "hoping" there's a rift between Martin and the show runners, believe there are several things that may add up to exactly that. And it's simply your opinion that it's "making conspiracy theories of nothing". I disagree with you that it's nothing.

Also, you said above of Martin that "he's never been afraid to criticize it [the show] before". I provided the one instance I thought you may be talking about. Do you have other instances of Martin criticizing the show?

[Prince of the North]

[snipped a lot of good stuff...]

Agreed and you said it better :)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I always think this is such pointless speculation. Who cares whether or not Martin and the showrunners are getting along? It won't change one word of the books that GRRM wants to write, and the show will still go to 7 seasons.

Let D&D and HBO finish the book series, and my goodness, please let's hope for a TWoW release within the next 12 months, 18 months at the most. They're two different things now, and there's enjoyment to be had no matter how people are getting the story.

[grumpus]

I've thought about this a lot. GRRM's state of mind over the years of this saga, that is. I can't see how he could have honest resentments against the show for any reason, really. He knew what he was doing - and everything that could happen - when he signed the deal with HBO.

I had never read the books back in the day when I first saw them, then the show brought me in and I became a huge fan. The first three books were excellent. Great story, great characters, great pacing, great epic feel, just... top notch stuff. That's why the show followed them so closely, only making minor changes to pave the road for the massive streamlining to come. Then he seemed to lose narrative focus and general motivation. In the next 15 years he only put out one bloated, unedited book split in half and released as two volumes, and these volumes made the second act of his story drag terribly.

He had the chance to tell his story first, but he let it slip and slip and now in the last year or two it has become undeniable that the show would end long before ADOS could ever be published, and possibly before TWOW, too.

I think (and hope) that it's possible for GRRM to regain his focus and energy (and use an editor with a spine!) and deliver a great third act for this story, but it has to be devastating for him to have allowed the TV show to tell the ending of his masterwork before he publishes the last book.