Heresy 161

[wolfmaid7]

I think that a better, or rather more sympathetic way of looking at the Nights King is not that he was bad, far less evil - for there really is no hint of either in the story - but rather that he wound up on what turned out to be the wrong side when it all went down.

Very true.

[Voice]

If the tines were not snapped off i would agree with you,but that just seems to me like a crude dagger to be honest.

As someone who's hunted many a stag, it isn't unheard of to find one with broken tines.

[wolfmaid7]

As someone who's hunted many a stag, it isn't unheard of to find one with broken tines.

I'm no hunter of the four legged variety,so i'll take your word on it as i have no clue with regards to this.

[Black Crow]

Its not unheard of but the context of its description suggests that two [there would hardly be room for more] have been broken off and if they hadn't been stripped off the antler wouldn't have penetrated as deeply as it did since they would have stopped it.

[Eira Seren]

Yes... I'll add my chorus to the agreement on that symbolism, but in both cases I'd add a caveat. There is a general assumption outside of heresy that these are good things; that the Starks gain their direwolves and will be able to use this warging and greenseeing business to fight the Others, whilst likewise Danaerys has her amazing dragons and will likewise be able to ride them to victory over the Others assisted by Jon Snow a secret Targaryen and therefore a dragonrider born.

[excuse the sound of retching in the corner]

But what if this is not a good thing and that the Starks [and Queen Danaerys] are being used and are being led down the primrose pathway to the everlasting bonfire. Remember that in the end the Nights King had to be cast down by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell.

We should just keep a bucket in the corner of Heresy labelled "keep calm and :ack: on"

Could be, re: the Starks. Though. . . this idea that the NK is on the wrong side. . . meaning on the wrong side of the Starks? And the Starks have been on the wrong side for a while? Not sure where am going with this.

It can definitely count for both,and i think GRRM may not have thought about this beyond what he was trying to relay.I personally do maintain a curiosity as to how that event (Direwolf ended up with Antlered Dagger in throat) because it says ritual and message to me.If we go by if it came North or was in the Wolfswood all the time,it still begs the question how.That is a massive wolf,a pregnant one at that so there must have been something.We may never explain it,and it may never be revealed.And i hope we get a conversation between BR where he says and "by the way your welcome for your wolf."

I think symbolism is there but not with respect to magic returning.Magic has always been there else we would not have had BR watching the Starks for ages,or the GHH or even Skinchagers beyond the Wall.Its in our face because some people i.e Dany and the Stark kids had not their familiars to awaken what was already there.

This is where the beauty and unexplained things that is magic comes into play.The symbolism i think lies in "identity" who are these kids? Really?" Whereby- and we have this verbal account by two of them- "they are their wolves". That to me is one of the biggest mysteries in this series "how can they be their wolves?"

And i'm reminded of MMD's words "only death can pay for life." which brings me to the other point of "sacrifice" which seems exactly what that was.

Which beings me to point 2 in the symbolism: What and who does the Direwolf symbolize? House Stark? The North. Either way going along with the sacrifice motif.

Out of the death of House Stark or the North will emerge...........Whatever symbolism you choose to ascribe to the wolves.At kease for one of them (In Ghost) we see the Old gods so maybe a resurgence of them.

A good beer will wash that out BC

On the final sentence i am in agreement,except my feeling that the NK wasn't as history made him out to be.He could be bitter now.but then he just got a bad wrap and a dish of treachery.We have to look at what and who the Stark kids can be in capable hands ( and yes i call them kids because most of them are innocent tools). And at sometime in the future there will come a time where either they remain tools or identify with their pack where they bo longer will be tools but become players.

At this moment though all of them( with the exception of Jon and i have no clue what's going on with Rickon ) are being molded and shaped.And all of them have been or are being collected.

:cheers: some really good points here

Also, pertaining to the bolded. . . This is exactly why I think the direwolves were always south of the wall. Like magic, they aren't really returning, but have always been there. Perhaps reviving, or suddenly visible.

Though. . . to counter my own argument, it's possible that recently direwolves have migrated south of the wall and are returning to the Wolfswood. It's happening here in my state, there's a wolf pack taking up in the eastern foothills of the cascades. This article talks about wolfy behavior and the Teanaway Pack

[ladyinblack]

We don't know the pups were born from a dead mother...only that she died in the process.

"Direwolves loose in the realm, after so many years," muttered Hullen, the master of horse. "I like it not."

"It is a sign," Jory said.

Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?"

"There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw."

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

Jory's comment, "It is a sign" makes little sense if the antler were a dagger, or if Gared had been rambling on about his direwolf sacrifice.

"It is a sign," isn't what I'd say if I found a dog with a dagger stuck in his throat, or a dog some half-mad deserter had just mentioned killing.

Agree with this

Whelping or close to it, would make her vulnerable enough to be killed by the stag. The process of dying could have released the pups into the world. She would be full of milk.

A dagger isn't necessary when a stags antler is available.

Life is magic and so is death

The old gods are that foremost of all-they command

Respect for the natural world....

[Black Crow]

There is the problem though of why did they fight. A she-wolf so near her term is unlikely to go picking a fight with a stag and conversely the stag even less so. The she-wolf being sacrificed at the right time and the right place to deliver the six pups to the six children of Winterfell for whom they were intended, seems a far simpler and more straightforward than the chain of unexplained events and co-incidences required to turn it into a random event.

[Black Crow]

Could be, re: the Starks. Though. . . this idea that the NK is on the wrong side. . . meaning on the wrong side of the Starks? And the Starks have been on the wrong side for a while? Not sure where am going with this.

I'm thinking more in terms of men and magic. The Starks are associated with the Old Gods and say their prayers before the heart tree, but that's all they appear to do; yet the Old Gods were once associated with blood sacrifice and magic. Did they make a break with that side of it as the magic waned and are they now being reclaimed as the old powers awaken and magic is again abroad in the world.

[King Tyrion XX]

These books being what they are, I'm not sure she's dead even now.

She could be nursing the Stranger's pups in the WF crypts as we speak.

[Voice]

I'm no hunter of the four legged variety,so i'll take your word on it as i have no clue with regards to this.

I'd say it's actually harder to find a buck with a perfect rack than it is to find one with a few tines snapped off. They fight with eachother, they break. If one were in a scuffle with a wolf the size of a small horse, it isn't hard to imagine them shattering as the antler is driven into the beast.

Its not unheard of but the context of its description suggests that two [there would hardly be room for more] have been broken off and if they hadn't been stripped off the antler wouldn't have penetrated as deeply as it did since they would have stopped it.

Not if they broke off as penetration occurred. We're not talking about a dog. Or even a good sized wolf. This thing is huge and heavy. If antlers can shatter when bucks fight eachother, it isn't hard to imagine them shattering even more so when a horse-sized wolf is attacking.

[Black Crow]

Not in the soft flesh of the throat they won't, and that's the point. Yes, a tine can break off when opposing antlers are locked but that's not the case here by a very long way.

And on that note, good night all.

[Voice]

Agree with this

Whelping or close to it, would make her vulnerable enough to be killed by the stag. The process of dying could have released the pups into the world. She would be full of milk.

A dagger isn't necessary when a stags antler is available.

Life is magic and so is death

The old gods are that foremost of all-they command

Respect for the natural world....

As Jory said, "It is a sign." No one had the feeling someone murdered the direwolf with a dagger. Instead, every single one of them had the feeling this was a sign. An omen. A strange occurrence, rather than a contrived one.

There is the problem though of why did they fight. A she-wolf so near her term is unlikely to go picking a fight with a stag and conversely the stag even less so. The she-wolf being sacrificed at the right time and the right place to deliver the six pups to the six children of Winterfell for whom they were intended, seems a far simpler and more straightforward than the chain of unexplained events and co-incidences required to turn it into a random event.

I breed hunting dogs as it turns out, and they only eat more and more until it is time to whelp. The bitches get extremely territorial and protective when the time nears as well. It is even more likely she would attack, or hunt, as her due date approached.

[Voice]

Not in the soft flesh of the throat they won't, and that's the point. Yes, a tine can break off when opposing antlers are locked but that's not the case here by a very long way.

And on that note, good night all.

Necks have bones. A huge direwolf would have large, sturdy bones in its neck. If we add in the element of struggle with a beast bearing incredible jaw strength, the odds of tine-shatter go way up.

[WeaselPie]

hmm.

[Eira Seren]

hmm.

care to elaborate on that? :lol:

[Voice]

care to elaborate on that? :lol:

I think that's the sound of a mind changing ;)

[King Tyrion XX]

And with at least a foot of antler inside it's possible the stag picked the direwolf up and the antler snapped from the strain.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ltitle Fury Things

What is it?

Who is it?

Where is it?

A [stag] falls away from me, I guess I'll crawl

A [stag] always smashes me, again I'll crawl

Tried to think what's over me, it makes me crawl

Then [it] runs away from me, faster than I crawl

[Voice]

And with at least a foot of antler inside it's possible the stag picked the direwolf up and the antler snapped from the strain.

That's what I'm thinking. Momma Direwolf is feeling hungry. Sees a stag. Stag doesn't want to be eaten. A struggle ensues. Tines break. Necks are pierced. Pups are born.

[addicted to snow]

Not in the soft flesh of the throat they won't, and that's the point. Yes, a tine can break off when opposing antlers are locked but that's not the case here by a very long way.

And on that note, good night all.

They were a LONG way from Winter @ this point in the story, perhaps the deer/stag/elk's antlers were still in velvet, this would make it quite easy for the tines to snap off...

Either way, it makes no matter, the story will not be advanced in the least by revealing what happened to this Direwolf...