Questions Regarding Elia's Children & Dorne.

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I have recently started reading a GoT again. As always, I notice things or they seem to become more important to me than they were the last time I read the very same words.

Anyway, Ned was talking to Robert about Lysa taking off in the middle of the night and going to the Eyrie. Cersei was furious because Tywin Lannister had offered to foster the boy and had never done it for anyone before.

Eddard thinks to himself: "I'd rather have a child raised by a pit of vipers than Tywin Lannister." Forgive me if that isn't an exact quote, but it is near enough.

So, the words that stood out to me were "pit of vipers." Vipers are known to be Dorne. I have often wondered how Rhaegar could possibly leave his children at the Red Keep in such mortal danger. Does anyone think that he may have had them moved to Dorne after all? The Red Viper of course comes to King's Landing ostensibly to avenge the deaths of Elia and her children. Is it possible that he did that only to continue a ruse started long ago?

Prince Doran makes a point several times at the water garden that you cannot tell the rich children from the poor in the pools as they are at their play. It is also clear that Prince Doran has had a rather complex plan in motion between himself and Oberyn for some time.

It is also obvious that there is someone at the Red Keep that is feeding him very good information. He knew what Cersei had planned if he sent Trystane back to King's Landing down to the fact that people would be heard to shout "Halfman, Halfman."

Prince Doran, although he moves very slowly, is always quite sure of his information. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Who is his spy or his spies? Were Aegon and Rhaenys brought back to Dorne? I have tried my damnedest to figure out how JonCon got his hands on Aegon in the first place, although I admit I may have forgotten him saying that he took the child from King's Landing himself. If he was actually brought back to Dorne, that would make more sense. I know I may be in crackpot territory here, but sometimes, I just need to see my thoughts in print.

[Mladen]

GRRM confirmed that Rhaenys is undoubtedly dead.

JonCon got Aegon when the boy was six years old.

Doran himself talks about Elia's children being dead.

That said, no.

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GRRM confirmed that Rhaenys is undoubtedly dead.

JonCon got Aegon when the boy was six years old.

Doran himself talks about Elia's children being dead.

That said, no.

If we took everything in the books at face value, it wouldn't be a very good story. What Ned said about a pit of vipers made me wonder. He was by Dorne, he went to Starfall, shortly after, Ashara Dayne is said to have killed herself. These things are not coincidental. I think there is a reason the Dornish have never been taken aside from Daeron who's conquest was a joke and a tragedy at the same time. The Dornish are smart and cunning. I won't rule anything out when it comes to Doran. For all of his sitting and watching children play water games, I find his one of the most fascinating characters in the book. He does not have the charisma or sex appeal of his brother, but Oberyn listened to him and kept his counsel. That says a lot. I'm really interested to see where that story line goes. If Rhaenys is dead, she's dead. I still don't know where JonCon came across Aegon. Thanks for your answer though.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Prince Doran, although he moves very slowly, is always quite sure of his information. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Who is his spy or his spies? Were Aegon and Rhaenys brought back to Dorne? I have tried my damnedest to figure out how JonCon got his hands on Aegon in the first place, although I admit I may have forgotten him saying that he took the child from King's Landing himself. If he was actually brought back to Dorne, that would make more sense. I know I may be in crackpot territory here, but sometimes, I just need to see my thoughts in print.

If Doran was hiding his nephews he would not send Arianne to meet Aegon to discover if he is real or not, neither propose a alliance with a impostor

[Avlonnic]

Firespider, I agree that these books are so layered and nuanced as to make one doubt anything at face value. I confess I was quite disappointed when, as Mladen mentioned, GRRM confirmed Rhaenys was murdered by Lorch in front of witnesses. Aarggh - on so many levels.

With that said, however, the books are awash with clues as to the myriad ways in which baby Aegon (and possibly Elia) might have survived. I could probably come up with 5 or 10 easily so there must be many more clues others have considered. (I haven't searched but there are likely many previous threads on the topic.) But, I cannot reconcile Doran's or Oberyn's actions with any knowledge of survivors from the Maegor's massacre. Their behavior seems consistent with truly believing Elia and both children were brutally slaughtered.

Regarding Doran, I think it is likely that youngsters may have been sheltered incognito among the Water Garden children over the years. We know the daughter of an important Tyroshi was there when Arianne was young. An excellent place to hide a child is among a group of children. Unfortunately we know it was not the case for Rhaenys.

For me, a troubling aspect about Doran is succession planning/leadership training. When we are introduced to Dorne, we are met with two strong male personalities, Doran and Oberyn. Doran, in particular, is touted as a thoughtful, strategic planner with an eye to the 'long game'. But there appears to be a dearth in terms of the next generation of leaders. Arianne is off with her friends; Quentyn is off being fostered; Trystane is a kid off playing in the Water Gardens and losing at cyvasse. None of them is ready to shepherd Dorne in a crisis (and don't even start on the hotheaded Sand Snakes.) Where is the sitting in on councils and planning sessions? Where is the education and meetings with lords of other Dornish houses and diplomatic talks with lords of the Marches? Where is the maturity? The wisdom? The restraint? It seems incongruent to have such little preparation when no one is guaranteed a long life on Planetos, much less someone handicapped by crippling gout. Oberyn, at least, began preparing his offspring with weapons training and knowledge; Arianne does not demonstrate any such training.

Compare this to the North where Ned begins training the boys on weapons and war strategy nearly from the cradle. He takes Robb (and frequently Theon and Jon) to visit the other northern lords. He has them (especially Robb) sit in on councils and meetings and disputes. At the family dinner table, Ned includes neighboring northern lords and the NW and southern visitors and representatives from every aspect of running the castle. Even Catelyn is so familiar with the aspects of governing that Ned does not hesitate to command her to rule Winterfell and the North in his absence.

It is simply mystifying to me. There is much more to ruling the nation of Dorne than personal vengence. Of the characters we have met in Dorne, perhaps Daemon Sand has the strongest leadersip potential but he is not a Martell. I wonder if other Dornish houses are considering an opportunity to displace the Martells - exactly when Dorne might face invasion from nearly every direction, land and sea. I am hoping Doran will surprise me. (GRRM is an expert cyvasse chess master so I am keeping the faith regarding his plotting.)

[Mladen]

If we took everything in the books at face value, it wouldn't be a very good story. What Ned said about a pit of vipers made me wonder. He was by Dorne, he went to Starfall, shortly after, Ashara Dayne is said to have killed herself. These things are not coincidental. I think there is a reason the Dornish have never been taken aside from Daeron who's conquest was a joke and a tragedy at the same time. The Dornish are smart and cunning. I won't rule anything out when it comes to Doran. For all of his sitting and watching children play water games, I find his one of the most fascinating characters in the book. He does not have the charisma or sex appeal of his brother, but Oberyn listened to him and kept his counsel. That says a lot. I'm really interested to see where that story line goes. If Rhaenys is dead, she's dead. I still don't know where JonCon came across Aegon. Thanks for your answer though.

And if we would consider GRRM's words as worthless, then we wouldn't be reading the books. Ned's words were figure of speech. Which also brings a point that we shouldn't take every word as literal. These things are not coincidental, they are figure of speech. You trying to revive Rhaenys by using a phrase is not ctackpot, it goes against established facts of the book. Rhaenys and Elia are dead. Aegon is also dead, IMO. Plus, Doran's words may have a lot of meaning regarding Myrcella, perhaps, Jon for example.

If Doran was hiding his nephews he would not send Arianne to meet Aegon to discover if he is real or not, neither propose a alliance with a impostor

Bingo.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I have often wondered how Rhaegar could possibly leave his children at the Red Keep in such mortal danger.

This is the faulty part of your argument. Rhaegar's children were not in great peril while at the Red Keep. The Targaryens had total naval superiority over Robert's forces. The royal fleet controlled Blackwater Bay, while Paxter Redwyne's forces blockaded Storm's End. Rhaegar had every reason to expect that, even if he lost at the Trident, his wife and children would easily be evacuated to Dragonstone or the Free Cities at will. The only reason they weren't is that Aerys became convinced that the defeat at the Trident was the result of a Dornish betrayal, so he forced Elia and her children to remain at the Red Keep when the others (including Viserys and his pregnant mother) fled to Dragonstone.

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I agree you can't take every word literally but I don't agree that Rhaegar's family wasn't in peril and if none of you believe that any were safely taken to Dorne, well then, their deaths were horrifying and preventable.

I keep hoping to find something about Rhaegar aside from his good looks that would make me think of him as an essentially good person who felt a compulsion to fulfill a prophecy and allowed nothing to stand in his way. I still hope that. I don't find him a romantic figure, he did nothi

ng heroic that I can name and while I don't think he was an intentional villian, I do think he acted without thinking things through. Perhaps he could have taken a lesson or two from Doran.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I keep hoping to find something about Rhaegar aside from his good looks that would make me think of him as an essentially good person who felt a compulsion to fulfill a prophecy and allowed nothing to stand in his way. I still hope that. I don't find him a romantic figure, he did nothi

ng heroic that I can name and while I don't think he was an intentional villian, I do think he acted without thinking things through. Perhaps he could have taken a lesson or two from Doran.

But that's the thing. In Rhaegar's eyes, Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. In order for Aegon to fulfill a prophecy, he should be alive. How could something happen to a prince who was prophecized to do great things?

I think it might be possible that Rhaegar was convinced that Aegon could not be harmed. Stil, he did not leave his son without protection. Aegon was inside Maegors Holdfast, with Aerys' guards. And Rhaegar himself seems to have been convinced that he would win at the Trident, thus Aegon would have been safe like that as well.