Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Other than the case Targaryens following the prophecy and escaping the doom, usually it seems to be counterproductive. Whether it is Targaryens in other cases, Stannis, Cersei. The actions you take trying to follow a prophecy to avoid a negative fate is often what ensures that happening. This won't happen always but it does seem to happen a lot. With the result being a self fulfilling prophecy. The jury is still out on some prophecies remaining, like Daenerys ones. Jon is also involved with prophecies and Melisandre, and it can be arguable that Melisandre's prophecy about the girl on a horse backfired on Jon. Though it would have worked better if he trusted her warning. The problem is that it isn't that easy to interpret what to follow. Then there are these quotes: [A] prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.- Marwyn to Samwell Tarly Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.[60] - Tyrion Lannister to Jorah Mormont Should we expect other attempts for a character to follow a prophecy to also backfire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Currently Melisandre has the best record, as far as following a prophecy to get possitive results go. Off the top of my head: Cressen - Sees poisening attempt, survives. Likely convinces Stannis of her power.Renly - Sees the future where Renly dies and his men turn to Stannis, and the future where "Renly" defeats Stannis on the Blackwater. Both true, both correctly understood, only problem is that Mel failed to make the connection that both are the same future.Davos - Mel sees Davos' attempt on her life, survives. Fist of the First Men - Sees the first time the Others have come in force against the NW. Convinces Stannis that a threat to mankind is coming even as a living, moving and decomposing hand failed to convince people in KL.Three kings - Mel sees the deaths of three kings, uses it to convince Stannis of the power of her magic, in an attempt to fulfill the prophecy of AAR. Banners in Barrowton - Provides real-time intel for Stannis regarding the army composition on the other side of the North for Stannis.Girl in Grey - Sees Alys Karstark, reads it as Arya Stark, but at the very least the news that Alys brings aid Stannis in that he now knows of the Karstark traitors, and Sigorn is preparing to take Karhold in Stannis' name with a better claimant than Arnolf. I think it is mainly due to the fact that while most prophecies are metaphorical, Mel's visions are not. They are a portal to the future. She did not see Renly, she saw his armor. She saw Cressen, and Davos, and banners in Barrowton. She saw through the fire to see the top of the Fist of the First Men, and a ring of torches around it. She saw a girl on a dying horse and assumed Arya. The prophecy of AAR is what she may get wrong, but so far her visions are pretty accurate, and she is able to work with them most of the time to get a positive result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberStone Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The ghost of high heart has a pretty legit record for prophecy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Personally I would have to say that any success Mel has had is overshadowed by her massive idiocy in thinking that Stannis is AA when if he is anything involved in that whole plot he will be the Night King, so basically the exact opposite and she had brought him to the wall and showed him magic is real. Rhaegar seems to have had success as well. He wanted 1 of his children or at least someone from his direct family to become the prince that was promised, and without his actions causing rebellion Jon would not have been born/ at the wall and Dany would not have dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Fist of the First Men - Sees the first time the Others have come in force against the NW. Convinces Stannis that a threat to mankind is coming even as a living, moving and decomposing hand failed to convince people in KL. Off topic, but was the hand still moving? I never read it that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ^Alliser says the hand has rotted away by the time Tyrion grants him the audience, he never even shows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzochris01 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The ghost of high heart has a pretty legit record for prophecy too. Yep, and the Ghost seems to interpret her prophecies more accurately than Mel. For instance, she recognised that she had seen Balon Greyjoy's death. Initially foretelling: I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. And when she sees the BWB again, she says: The king is dead, is that sour enough for you?""Which bloody king is dead, crone?" Lem demanded."The wet one. The kraken king, m'lords. I dreamt him dead and he died. and the iron squids now turn on one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The ghost of high heart has a pretty legit record for prophecy too. Most prophecies that we see are true to some degree. Mel is simply the best at the moment at actually doing something with it aside form going "oooooooooooooooh, so that's what it meant...." in hindsight. GOHH? Hindsight. Dany's visions? Hindsight. Mel? Real time interpretation, most of it accurate. Personally I would have to say that any success Mel has had is overshadowed by her massive idiocy in thinking that Stannis is AA when if he is anything involved in that whole plot he will be the Night King, so basically the exact opposite and she had brought him to the wall and showed him magic is real. Rhaegar seems to have had success as well. He wanted 1 of his children or at least someone from his direct family to become the prince that was promised, and without his actions causing rebellion Jon would not have been born/ at the wall and Dany would not have dragons. Why idiocy? She sees visions. We know that so far, everything that she had seen turned out to be correct. She saw Stannis fighting darkness with LB. At most, whatever is sending her visions wanted her to see Stannis fighting the Darkness with LB. If anything it's Jon I'm worried about turning ot the NK 2.0, the guy has a dream where people are shooting fire arrows at him, and he wears armor of black ice. He is LC of the NW, while Stannis never set foot yet in the Nightfort. For Stannis to make the mental change from going on about the Others being the "only enemy that matters" that he was "born to fight", to joining them.... It would be waaay too much of an asspull. Rhaegar had so far failed at least twice. He first thought he was AAR, then his three kids. One is dead by all accounts, another may be as well, replaced with a fake, and the third was just on the recieving end of some knives, and has far more forshadowing of going over to the dark side than Stannis. Off topic, but was the hand still moving? I never read it that way It was still moving when Thorne got to KL, he had it on ice. It rotted away while Tyrion forced him to wait out of petty spite. It would be pretty unreasonable to assume that not a single person saw it, either on the ship that took Thorne, the ports where they stopped for provisions and water, and in KL. If you had a moving hand and nothing to do all day for weeks on end, would you not show it around for literally anyone you come across? The thought that Throne waited weeks in a room with old sheets and not even once showing the hand to anyone demands more suspension of disbelief than I am capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Are there any Targs other than the Dreamer who didn't end up batshit insane because of their prophecy obsession? Her visions of leaving the east seem to stick out when compared to the devastation that resulted from Dany/Rhaegar/Egg/basically-every-other-targ-seer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ^Alliser says the hand has rotted away by the time Tyrion grants him the audience, he never even shows it. Thanks I couldn't remember but I was pretty sure it never moved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm starting to doubt that the Doom prophecy was real. I'm leaning more toward Targaryens conspiring with the Faceless Men, perhaps using "all the gold in Casterly Rock", to take out the mages that kept the 14 flames. The prophecy was just a cover to get the Targ family away from the empire so they would be the last remaining dragonriders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm starting to doubt that the Doom prophecy was real. I'm leaning more toward Targaryens conspiring with the Faceless Men, perhaps using "all the gold in Casterly Rock", to take out the mages that kept the 14 flames. The prophecy was just a cover to get the Targ family away from the empire so they would be the last remaining dragonriders. Why though? What is the motivation for this? To rule Westeros without having to share with other Valyrians ? There was no guarantee they could conquer the 7K on their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm starting to doubt that the Doom prophecy was real. I'm leaning more toward Targaryens conspiring with the Faceless Men, perhaps using "all the gold in Casterly Rock", to take out the mages that kept the 14 flames. The prophecy was just a cover to get the Targ family away from the empire so they would be the last remaining dragonriders. Yeah, I'm having some similar thoughts based on just how devastating we see the impacts of targ prophecy obsession. Would be a cute form of cosmic justice if the targ cover-story ended up being the undoing of all of the power they won themselves. Why though? What is the motivation for this? To rule Westeros without having to share with other Valyrians ? There was no guarantee they could conquer the 7K on their own My guess would be because they were a more minor dragon lord house and infighting amongst the great houses of Valyria doesn't seem to have been any less treacherous than amongst the houses of westeros. After the doom they were the only dragonlords. Maybe like the freys a greater house disrespected them, which combined with their ambition and pride lead their retaliation to go too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberStone Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nyrhex: although gohh prophecy is in hindsight to us, the readers, for the characters in the books its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nyrhex: although gohh prophecy is in hindsight to us, the readers, for the characters in the books its not. Really? When does she say Balon then? Is it before or after he is dead? What makes you think that she knows more than what she says? I usually take it in the Sybill Trelawney way of the prophecy coming from some other power through the speaker, otherwise why would they be talking in riddles? Do they all get a kick out of it? Does the GOHH have nothing better to do all day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yeah, I'm having some similar thoughts based on just how devastating we see the impacts of targ prophecy obsession. Would be a cute form of cosmic justice if the targ cover-story ended up being the undoing of all of the power they won themselves. My guess would be because they were a more minor dragon lord house and infighting amongst the great houses of Valyria doesn't seem to have been any less treacherous than amongst the houses of westeros. After the doom they were the only dragonlords. Maybe like the freys a greater house disrespected them, which combined with their ambition and pride lead their retaliation to go too far. I just can't square with mass genocide and destruction of their entire civilization and way of life so they could go conquer what is essentially a backwater nation and 'win' the valyrian edition of game of thrones... I mean is it even winning if you literally destroy the kingdom and move to a new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nyrhex, Rhaegar wanted someone from his family to be tptwp, and there are 2 candidates, Jon and Dany, 1 has actually fulfilled the prophecy of AA already, neither or them would be where they are without Rhaegars actions. His death, Viserys death, Aegons death, and Rhaenys death are all irrelevant to his actions having helped bring the prophecy about, which they have. Without his actions Jon is not born, and Dany does not have dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I just can't square with mass genocide and destruction of their entire civilization and way of life so they could go conquer what is essentially a backwater nation and 'win' the valyrian edition of game of thrones... I mean is it even winning if you literally destroy the kingdom and move to a new one? Just speculating out loud here without having re-read for support of this; but I'm not sure they meant for it go as far as they did. The way I would picture this actually playing out would be the Targs working with the faceless men to move their family up in the valyrian foodchain via some strategic killings, not knowing that the FM were planning on causing the doom. This could've just been what happens when you add craptons of magic, dragons and FM to the red wedding and set in on the valyrian peninsula. Their move to Dragonstone may have been a separate part of their plans, likely having something to do with the cursed-gold of casterly rock. Maybe they thought that if they never brought the gold back to Valyria they wouldn't be triggering the curse, so that conquering westeros could have a clear purpose. We're told that stories about the wealth of the Rock had travelled far and wide even in ancient times, but that it was this curse that kept the valyrians from ever trying to claim this wealth. So when the assassination part of the plan went completely tits up the survivors on dragonstone came up with the cover story to remove any culbility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Were the FM active in Valyria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nyrhex, Rhaegar wanted someone from his family to be tptwp, and there are 2 candidates, Jon and Dany, 1 has actually fulfilled the prophecy of AA already, neither or them would be where they are without Rhaegars actions. His death, Viserys death, Aegons death, and Rhaenys death are all irrelevant to his actions having helped bring the prophecy about, which they have. Without his actions Jon is not born, and Dany does not have dragons. Wanting and predicting are two different things. The woods witch said that AAR would be born from his mother and father. Rhaegar first thinks himself, then his kids. Wrong both times. At best, he is partially correct in his second try. We can go on about the "because prophecy says so" trope, but what it comes down to is that Jon and Dany are alive despite Rhaegar's actions, not because of them. Since the question is who has the best record of understanting and using prophecies, Mel is doing rounds around Rhaegar. By the same logic we can say that Robert is the main reason for Dany, since without his order to kill her, the chain of events for her to get dragons does not start. Without Mel to get Stannis to see that there is more to Aemon's letter than warning of Wildlings, Jon would try and destroy a fake horn and die right after. This does little to paint Rhaegar as good at prophecies, or at applying the knowledge to his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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