King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rhaegar was already married. But yes, technically he can marry Lyanna, and setting Elia aside, since he is a Prince, and the Martells aren't strong enough to do much about it (except vipers and scorpions in their bed). He is a Targaryen Prince, odds are he could get away with being married to both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ned never offered them free passage. Ned asks why they are not with Viserys at DS. The KG say that the KG do not flee -- then or now. That statement is an expression of understanding that Ned would let them leave ToJ if they let him get to his sister, but they refuse to take Ned up on this implicit offer to go to DS to be with Viserys on the grounds that they do not flee and they swore a vow. Without the assumption that there is an implicit offer to go to DS, the statement about fleeing, then or now, makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ned asks why they are not with Viserys at DS. The KG say that the KG do not flee -- then or now. That statement is an expression of understanding that Ned would let them leave ToJ if they let him get to his sister, but they refuse to take Ned up on this implicit offer to go to DS to be with Viserys on the grounds that they do not flee and they swore a vow. Without the assumption that there is an implicit offer to go to DS, the statement about fleeing, then or now, makes no sense. Ned could not just give them free passage to guard the Targaryens, he was after all Robert's man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ned could not just give them free passage to guard the Targaryens, he was after all Robert's man. At that point, Ned just want to get to his sister. The exchange makes clear to me that Ned is suggesting that he will let them pass and presumably go to DS if they give him free access to his sister in the tower. The KG seem to understand this offer but refuse to accept it. That is how I read the exchange as written. You are free to interpret the words differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here is my current take on the ToJ (it could change with new information). Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Since Rhaegar was worried about his relationship with his father, he sent Aegon to Starfall rather than King's Landing when Elia and Rhaenys were ordered to go to the Red Keep. Elia and Rhaenys had to go to KL, because Aerys had met both of them and knew who they were. Aegon could be sent somewhere else since no one at court had yet seen Aegon. Varys provided a close enough baby for this deception. Note: Aerys is the one who is supposed to be fooled in this scenario. When Hightower went to the ToJ to tell Rhaegar he had been recalled to King's Landing, Rhaegar ordered the three kingsguard to stay with Lyanna until the baby was born. If something bad happened to him, the three kingsguard should take Lyanna, the baby and Aegon into exile. The fight at the ToJ occurred when Ned tried to leave with Jon, not when he first arrived. Lyanna knew the plan was to take Jon into exile along with Aegon. She didn't want this for her child, so she made Ned promise to take Jon back with him to Winterfell. When Ned and Howland defeated the three kingsguard and returned the sword to Ashara she knew that no one else was coming. She had to let Ned take Jon rather than risk revealing Aegon's presence. After Ned left, Ashara (with the help of Varys) left Westeros to raise Aegon in Essos. Later, Ashara (who is posing as Septa Lemore) convinced JonCon to help Aegon prepare for his future role as king and to help Aegon get there. And this is where we are in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastafaria Sand Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Birthing alone is more common than you'd think. I had two babies unassisted (midwife was hanging around in the background drinking cups of tea in case she was needed) and I can think of five women off the top of my head who gave birth to healthy babies completely alone. The question is whether Rhaegar and Lyanna would have risked her birthing without a maester or midwife. Tbh they both seem to be fairly reckless when thinking through the consequences of their actions. It might have even been a point of pride for them to contrast the robust Lyanna with Rhaegar's more frail first wife- by all accounts Elia had difficult pregnancies and births. In any case it didn't seem to work out so well for them given that she apparently haemorrhaged, in which case no one but a trained maester or midwife could have saved her, if anyone at all.It does seem unlikely that Lyanna didn't have at least one attendant- I can't see the KG emptying chamber pots and baking lemon cakes. It would have to have been someone of unquestionable loyalty or a deaf mute. Wylla is a possibility but given that she was in Starfall to nurse Edric Dayne, I believe that she may have been on hand as a wet nurse for Ashara Dayne's baby, and when she was stillborn she went with Ned to nurse Jon, possibly cooking up the story of claiming to be his mother on the way. Either way I'm convinced that she knows something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here is my current take on the ToJ (it could change with new information). Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Since Rhaegar was worried about his relationship with his father, he sent Aegon to Starfall rather than King's Landing when Elia and Rhaenys were ordered to go to the Red Keep. Elia and Rhaenys had to go to KL, because Aerys had met both of them and knew who they were. Aegon could be sent somewhere else since no one at court had yet seen Aegon. Varys provided a close enough baby for this deception. Note: Aerys is the one who is supposed to be fooled in this scenario. When Hightower went to the ToJ to tell Rhaegar he had been recalled to King's Landing, Rhaegar ordered the three kingsguard to stay with Lyanna until the baby was born. If something bad happened to him, the three kingsguard should take Lyanna, the baby and Aegon into exile. The fight at the ToJ occurred when Ned tried to leave with Jon, not when he first arrived. Lyanna knew the plan was to take Jon into exile along with Aegon. She didn't want this for her child, so she made Ned promise to take Jon back with him to Winterfell. When Ned and Howland defeated the three kingsguard and returned the sword to Ashara she knew that no one else was coming. She had to let Ned take Jon rather than risk revealing Aegon's presence. After Ned left, Ashara (with the help of Varys) left Westeros to raise Aegon in Essos. Later, Ashara (who is posing as Septa Lemore) convinced JonCon to help Aegon prepare for his future role as king and to help Aegon get there. And this is where we are in the story. No way that the three King's Guard let Ned anywhere close to Lyanna and the baby. I don't care if he is super honorable Ned Stark, brother and uncle to Lyanna and baby. He is one of Robert's men, he is one the leaders of the Rebellion that: 1- just killed the entire Royal family in King's Landing, 2- fought an entire war against you, and 3- took the Throne from your King. They are not getting with in a hundred yards of Lyanna as long as the King's Guard are alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 No way that the three King's Guard let Ned anywhere close to Lyanna and the baby. I don't care if he is super honorable Ned Stark, brother and uncle to Lyanna and baby. He is one of Robert's men, he is one the leaders of the Rebellion that: 1- just killed the entire Royal family in King's Landing, 2- fought an entire war against you, and 3- took the Throne from your King. They are not getting with in a hundred yards of Lyanna as long as the King's Guard are alive. Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastafaria Sand Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Birthing alone is more common than you'd think. I had two babies unassisted (midwife was hanging around in the background drinking cups of tea in case she was needed) and I can think of five women off the top of my head who gave birth to healthy babies completely alone. The question is whether Rhaegar and Lyanna would have risked her birthing without a maester or midwife. Tbh they both seem to be fairly reckless when thinking through the consequences of their actions. It might have even been a point of pride for them to contrast the robust Lyanna with Rhaegar's more frail first wife- by all accounts Elia had difficult pregnancies and births. In any case it didn't seem to work out so well for them given that she apparently haemorrhaged, in which case no one but a trained maester or midwife could have saved her, if anyone at all.It does seem unlikely that Lyanna didn't have at least one attendant- I can't see the KG emptying chamber pots and baking lemon cakes. It would have to have been someone of unquestionable loyalty or a deaf mute. Wylla is a possibility but given that she was in Starfall to nurse Edric Dayne, I believe that she may have been on hand as a wet nurse for Ashara Dayne's baby, and when she was stillborn she went with Ned to nurse Jon, possibly cooking up the story of claiming to be his mother on the way. Either way I'm convinced that she knows something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastafaria Sand Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby.I agree that the laws against kinslaying trump Ned's loyalty to Robert, but perhaps the KG vowed to crown Jon and continue the Targaryen line of kings? The way the war's going Ned and Lyanna are more concerned with Jon's safety and future happiness, which will always be tenuous while Robert lives. Perhaps the KG are fighting for the right to keep Jon as a rallying point for Targaryen Loyalists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Well, for one, we do not know that Lyanna was pregnant, that is still just fan theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 No way that the three King's Guard let Ned anywhere close to Lyanna and the baby. I don't care if he is super honorable Ned Stark, brother and uncle to Lyanna and baby. He is one of Robert's men, he is one the leaders of the Rebellion that: 1- just killed the entire Royal family in King's Landing, 2- fought an entire war against you, and 3- took the Throne from your King. They are not getting with in a hundred yards of Lyanna as long as the King's Guard are alive. Lannisters killed family, and took throne from aerys( by killing him) and yet had not declared for robert until the final moments... i am wondering just where it clearly states that Rhaegar knew his father was dead thereby making him king and his son heir, so that kingsguard could be assigned for protection...and when did he and first wife divorce so he could marry lyanna? i just finished a re-read of GoT and so far nothing to support any of these wild ass theories...bloody bed = childbirth...why not wounds from a fall, a fight, or some such...a promise whispered = take my baby and raise it as your own...all i get from reading is that ned made a promise...which has not been revealed to date...he found her dying from undisclosed reasons and kingsguard were there to guard, as in prisoner or guard as in royal person here...seems more like guard the prisoner to me since they obviously didn't help save her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby. They don't have to believe he would kill them. All they have to believe is that he would make their existence known to Robert. And Ned arguably commits treason by not disclosing who Jon is to Robert. The KG have good reason to believe that Ned, as one of the leaders of the rebellion, is going to be loyal to the new king and not commit treason -- even if it puts his nephew's life at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Ned asks why they are not with Viserys at DS. The KG say that the KG do not flee -- then or now. That statement is an expression of understanding that Ned would let them leave ToJ if they let him get to his sister, but they refuse to take Ned up on this implicit offer to go to DS to be with Viserys on the grounds that they do not flee and they swore a vow. Without the assumption that there is an implicit offer to go to DS, the statement about fleeing, then or now, makes no sense. I have no idea why you think this, or why you think the three of them would take it in that way. I don't think that's in the exchange at all, nor does it even seem to be suggested that this was implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Snow Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Here is my current take on the ToJ (it could change with new information). Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Since Rhaegar was worried about his relationship with his father, he sent Aegon to Starfall rather than King's Landing when Elia and Rhaenys were ordered to go to the Red Keep. Elia and Rhaenys had to go to KL, because Aerys had met both of them and knew who they were. Aegon could be sent somewhere else since no one at court had yet seen Aegon. Varys provided a close enough baby for this deception. Note: Aerys is the one who is supposed to be fooled in this scenario. When Hightower went to the ToJ to tell Rhaegar he had been recalled to King's Landing, Rhaegar ordered the three kingsguard to stay with Lyanna until the baby was born. If something bad happened to him, the three kingsguard should take Lyanna, the baby and Aegon into exile. The fight at the ToJ occurred when Ned tried to leave with Jon, not when he first arrived. Lyanna knew the plan was to take Jon into exile along with Aegon. She didn't want this for her child, so she made Ned promise to take Jon back with him to Winterfell. When Ned and Howland defeated the three kingsguard and returned the sword to Ashara she knew that no one else was coming. She had to let Ned take Jon rather than risk revealing Aegon's presence. After Ned left, Ashara (with the help of Varys) left Westeros to raise Aegon in Essos. Later, Ashara (who is posing as Septa Lemore) convinced JonCon to help Aegon prepare for his future role as king and to help Aegon get there. And this is where we are in the story. I like your theory on Aegon much better than Varys spiriting a baby out of KL as the Lannister army sacks the city. It also pairs up well with the switch we actually saw at Castle Black with GIlly's baby and Mance rayder's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby. Not bullshit, The king and prince were dead, the only living Heir to the kingdom was a baby. The sack of KL was reason enough to not trust anyone associated with future king Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I have no idea why you think this, or why you think the three of them would take it in that way. I don't think that's in the exchange at all, nor does it even seem to be suggested that this was implied. Well whoever wrote the wiki sees it my way. Here is a quote directly from the wiki entry for Gerold Hightower -- bold added (go to the wiki and enter Gerold Hightower if you want confirmation of this entry): It was the Tower of Joy where Gerold and his two sworn brothers would eventually meet their fates. They were found here by Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell, and six of Eddards companions. After a short discussion with Eddard, during which Eddard gave the three Kingsguard knights several opportunities to leave unharmed, opportunities which Gerold, Arthur and Oswell refused, a battle ensued. Gerold died during the battle. He was buried at the site of the Tower of Joy. Stones from the Tower were used to build his cairn, upon a ridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby. He certainly wouldn't, but a man bound by his honour to serve his liege best he can is bound to reveal their existence to the said liege, who has developed a nasty habit of condoning the murder of babies. Well, for one, we do not know that Lyanna was pregnant, that is still just fan theory. i am wondering just where it clearly states that Rhaegar knew his father was dead thereby making him king and his son heir, so that kingsguard could be assigned for protection...and when did he and first wife divorce so he could marry lyanna? i just finished a re-read of GoT and so far nothing to support any of these wild ass theories...bloody bed = childbirth...why not wounds from a fall, a fight, or some such...a promise whispered = take my baby and raise it as your own...all i get from reading is that ned made a promise...which has not been revealed to date...he found her dying from undisclosed reasons and kingsguard were there to guard, as in prisoner or guard as in royal person here...seems more like guard the prisoner to me since they obviously didn't help save her. He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT) “Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …” “I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT) “The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT) That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC) These are the only occurences of "bed of blood/bloody bed" in the whole series so far, all connected to childbirth. It is never used in the instances when there is a bleeding person lying on a bed (Sansa's menstruation, dying Robert). As for Rhaegar's divorce - which of his wives did Aegon the Conqueror divorce to marry the other? Ned's promise may not have been that specific as to raise Jon on his own, but we know that this is what he did, went to great lengths to treat Jon differently than bastards are normally treated, and never disclosed the identity of his mother although there was no plausible reason to hurt Jon (and Cat) by not doing so. Apparently, the promise concerned Jon's wellbeing and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bullshit, there is no way any of the people involved in this scenario believe Ned is going to go in and kill his dying sister and her baby. They don't know Ned. Also, Rhaegar might have specifically ordered them to keep anyone away from the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Nobody asked how Eddard was able to find Lyanna's location .Who told Ned that Rhaegar called it the Tower of Joy ? Why wasn't Hightower at Aerys' side ? What would have happen if Rhaegar had met Eddard at the Trident ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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