Varys and His Little Bird

[Modesty Lannister]

As we know, the master of whisperers, mysterious lord Varys has a lot of little birds who inform him of everything. How Varys recruits them is also a mystery. But, I've been rereading some parts of AGOT and I actually refreshed my memory on who tells us about Varys and his network of spies.

“Lord Varys knows all,” Petyr said with a sly smile. “He will be joining us shortly, but I wanted to see you alone first. It has been too long, Cat. How many years?”

Catelyn ignored his familiarity. There were more important questions. “So it was the King’s Spider who found me.”

Littlefinger winced. “You don’t want to call him that. He’s very sensitive. Comes of being an eunuch, I imagine. Nothing happens in this city without Varys knowing. Oftimes he knows about it before it happens. He has informants everywhere. His little birds, he calls them. One of his little birds heard about your visit. Thankfully, Varys came to me first.”

“Why you?”

He shrugged. “Why not me? I am master of coin, the king’s own councillor. Selmy and Lord Renly rode north to meet Robert, and Lord Stannis is gone to Dragonstone, leaving only Maester Pycelle and me. I was the obvious choice. I was ever a friend to your sister Lysa, Varys knows that.”

Catelyn AGOT

We tend to think of Varys and Littlefinger as opponents, but actually they jump the gun together and meet Catelyn before she gets a chance to get to her husband. Littlefinger is the one who tells us how Varys operates and when questioned by Catelyn as to why would Varys ever go to him, Littlefinger gets a bit too defensive for his character. Yet, since this is the first time we meet him, we still have not opinion to judge his behaviour strange and later we just forget about it.

Later it is maester Pycelle who informs Eddard that Jon Arryn was poisoned with the Tears of Lys and ...

What sort of monster in man’s flesh would dare to murder such a noble lord?”

“I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon.”

Pycelle stroked his beard thoughtfully. “It is said. Women, cravens... and eunuchs.” He cleared his throat and spat a thick glob of phlegm onto the rushes. Above them, a raven cawed loudly in the rookery. “The Lord Varys was born a slave in Lys, did you know? Put not your trust in spiders, my lord.”

That was scarcely anything Ned needed to be told; there was something about Varys that made his flesh crawl.

Eddard, AGOT

When this scene is unravelling, we have no idea Lysa killed her husband. We still firmly suspect the Lannisters. Now, we know that Lysa poisoned Jon's wine (women). We know that Littlefinger gave her the poison (cravens), but we still do not know where Littlefinger got the poison from (eunuchs?). Can that small sentence by Pycelle be seen as a foreshadowing of who really gave Littlefinger the poison who killed Jon Arryn? We now know that Varys does not shy away from killing his enemies. We saw how Pycelle and Kevan ended.

Littlefinger and Varys are two members of the Small Council who are considered to be of foreign extraction (Braavos) and a foreigner (Lys) respectively.

Strangely, Littlefinger changed his sigil from the Titan of Braavos into the Mockingbird. Why? Ne never tells us.

All this leads me to the question I want to ask you all. Can it be that Littlefinger had started his illustrious career as one of Varys's little birds in Riverrun? Could it be that Varys and Littlefinger have been working together all the time? It seems highly unlikely that Varys wouldn't know anything about where Sansa Stark has gone or who poisoned Joffrey, but we never see him speak up.

What do you think?

[MistressofWhisperers]

Thanks for starting this thread! It's always fun to discuss our favorite schemers.

I don't think LF started out as one of Varys's birds though. Varys likes them young and LF spent his childhood in Riverrun. LF and Varys are portrayed as rivals in the story, so it would surprise me if they were working together all this time. I do think Varys allows LF's schemes to succeed when they don't run counter to his own. However, I kind of see Varys winning out in a showdown, but who knows, LF might ally himself to Varys's ultimate game plan if it suits him.

It is said we don't hear Varys speak up, as we would have so many questions answered, which would be awesome. However, we do get rare candid glimpses of his plans, like the Arya chapter in AGOT, when she overhears Varys & Illyrio plotting.

“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.”
She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.
“So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find. . . so young, to know their letters. . . perhaps older. . . not die so easy. . .”
“No. The younger are safer. . . treat them gently. . .”

[EastTymor]

Varys' little birds seem to be tongueless, Essosi, and dead before adulthood. Littlefinger does not fit those criteria.

I think its fairly clear that Varys makes use of a network of conventional spies and informants, conversations with the King's Landing elite, and the little birds to stay informed.

[Victor227]

Thanks for starting this thread! It's always fun to discuss our favorite schemers.

I don't think LF started out as one of Varys's birds though. Varys likes them young and LF spent his childhood in Riverrun. LF and Varys are portrayed as rivals in the story, so it would surprise me if they were working together all this time. I do think Varys allows LF's schemes to succeed when they don't run counter to his own. However, I kind of see Varys winning out in a showdown, but who knows, LF might ally himself to Varys's ultimate game plan if it suits him.

It is said we don't hear Varys speak up, as we would have so many questions answered, which would be awesome. However, we do get rare candid glimpses of his plans, like the Arya chapter in AGOT, when she overhears Varys & Illyrio plotting.

Are they portrayed as rivals though? The only time Varys ever mentions Littlefinger in his schemes is when he's persuading Illyrio to send him more birds and coin, with his 'the gods only know what Littlefinger is planning' line, to add to the array of events he's portraying as growing beyond his control.

The truth is, if Littlefinger is such a threat, why not deal with him? Varys has men and resources beyond what anyone suspects of him. He could have stopped Robert's death, and he could have falsified (or revealed) evidence to throw Littlefinger into a world of trouble. Likewise, Littlefinger has never seemed to work against Varys with anything more than words, and we all know how two-faced he is in that regard. The two existed for years as 'rival schemers' in King's Landing, and neither successfully killed the other? It would make a great deal more sense if they were working together, even if in only some fields rather sharing the same end-game.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Are they portrayed as rivals though? The only time Varys ever mentions Littlefinger in his schemes is when he's persuading Illyrio to send him more birds and coin, with his 'the gods only know what Littlefinger is planning' line, to add to the array of events he's portraying as growing beyond his control.

The truth is, if Littlefinger is such a threat, why not deal with him? Varys has men and resources beyond what anyone suspects of him. He could have stopped Robert's death, and he could have falsified (or revealed) evidence to throw Littlefinger into a world of trouble. Likewise, Littlefinger has never seemed to work against Varys with anything more than words, and we all know how two-faced he is in that regard. The two existed for years as 'rival schemers' in King's Landing, and neither successfully killed the other? It would make a great deal more sense if they were working together, even if in only some fields rather sharing the same end-game.

They actually shared the same enemies for a while. First Stannis, then the Lannisters. It's only now that their interests seem to be taking them to different paths, but I think Varys has already made his first move against LF in the form of the Mad Mouse (well, second move, if we count saving LF's nemesis from a certain execution)

[MistressofWhisperers]

Are they portrayed as rivals though? The only time Varys ever mentions Littlefinger in his schemes is when he's persuading Illyrio to send him more birds and coin, with his 'the gods only know what Littlefinger is planning' line, to add to the array of events he's portraying as growing beyond his control.

The truth is, if Littlefinger is such a threat, why not deal with him? Varys has men and resources beyond what anyone suspects of him. He could have stopped Robert's death, and he could have falsified (or revealed) evidence to throw Littlefinger into a world of trouble. Likewise, Littlefinger has never seemed to work against Varys with anything more than words, and we all know how two-faced he is in that regard. The two existed for years as 'rival schemers' in King's Landing, and neither successfully killed the other? It would make a great deal more sense if they were working together, even if in only some fields rather sharing the same end-game.

Are they portrayed as rivals though? The only time Varys ever mentions Littlefinger in his schemes is when he's persuading Illyrio to send him more birds and coin, with his 'the gods only know what Littlefinger is planning' line, to add to the array of events he's portraying as growing beyond his control.

The truth is, if Littlefinger is such a threat, why not deal with him? Varys has men and resources beyond what anyone suspects of him. He could have stopped Robert's death, and he could have falsified (or revealed) evidence to throw Littlefinger into a world of trouble. Likewise, Littlefinger has never seemed to work against Varys with anything more than words, and we all know how two-faced he is in that regard. The two existed for years as 'rival schemers' in King's Landing, and neither successfully killed the other? It would make a great deal more sense if they were working together, even if in only some fields rather sharing the same end-game.

I meant rivals as in they have different end goals for the politics of Westeros. LF schemes to put himself in greater and greater positions of power and it's never enough (from minor lord to Master of Coin to LP of Riverlands), his ultimate goal is to empower himself as much as possible (maybe Hand of the King). Varys's goal is to put his own puppet, fAegon, in power. What role does LF have in Varys's vision of Westeros? I can't be sure, but something tells me Varys knows better than to let LF into a position of power.

[Modesty Lannister]

Thank you all for your inputs, especially those who think that Varys and Littlefinger are rivals. We take this rivalry for granted and subconsciously, imho, we are influenced by wonderful sparing matches between two giants of Irish acting scene from the show - Conleth Hill (I just cannot love him enough) and Aiden Gillen.

But, after a careful reread, I do think this is smoke and mirrors. When I said Littlefinger may have started his career as Varys's little bird in Riverrun, I meant he may have been Varys's informant in Riverrun since childhood. Not all of the "birds" are mute. That would be too noticeable. In every village or castle, we would have a mute and know who they work for. Yet, this is not the case.

But, Littlefinger is a bird that mocks, a bird that plants its eggs in someone else's nest. Very fitting. He chose to put a bird on his sigil. And that is telling us something. I never thought beyond Littlefinger is mocking everyone on his way up. From the symbolic point of view, we can say that Littlefinger's storyline revolves around birds that have nothing to do with Varys. He is now with a "little bird" of another sort and Sweetrobin. However, the nickname predates that storyline.

Furthermore, Varys is a mummer and Littlefinger is a whoremonger. These two professions are closer than they seem to us since this is a virtual medieval world. I'd say they complement each other rather than rival each other.

Jon Arryn gets killed by Tears of Lys yet no one ever questions the man said to be from Lys. Odd.

All Ned Stark knows in King's Landing, he learns from these two characters who are doing their best to confuse him and us. Varys appears to be helping Ned Stark's case and negotiating his freedom (transfer to the Watch), but we know that he was talking to Ilirio about Stark getting killed.

Littlefinger betrayal of Stark is obvious, but LF's whispering in Joffrey's ear plants a seed of execution.

Littlefinger and Varys know way too much about each other and never attempt to stop each other. I repeat, it is inconceivable that Varys did not know who took Sansa and where. Yet he doesn't move against Baelish at all.

[John Suburbs]

I've had it in the back of my mind for a while now that while LF and V may not be working together, they both might be working for Illyrio, unbeknownst :eek: to each other.

[Led]

Littlefinger and Varys know way too much about each other and never attempt to stop each other. I repeat, it is inconceivable that Varys did not know who took Sansa and where. Yet he doesn't move against Baelish at all.

Perhaps the reason they have not moved against each other is that they both know the other could produce enough evidence to ruin their own plans as well? Defense by mutual destruction being assured if one is felled by the other?

[RobOsevens]

Perhaps the reason they have not moved against each other is that they both know the other could produce enough evidence to ruin their own plans as well? Defense by mutual destruction being assured if one is felled by the other?

Thats the way I have always read it or atleast figured it to be

[Modesty Lannister]

Perhaps the reason they have not moved against each other is that they both know the other could produce enough evidence to ruin their own plans as well? Defense by mutual destruction being assured if one is felled by the other?

That's what I thought, but rereading makes you pay attention to intrinsic details, such as a quote by Pycelle I mentioned in OP. GRRM hides these little clues everywhere. He said himself that he encourages rereading with his method of writing.

[a_motherf'ndragon]

As we know, the master of whisperers, mysterious lord Varys has a lot of little birds who inform him of everything. How Varys recruits them is also a mystery. But, I've been rereading some parts of AGOT and I actually refreshed my memory on who tells us about Varys and his network of spies.

We tend to think of Varys and Littlefinger as opponents, but actually they jump the gun together and meet Catelyn before she gets a chance to get to her husband. Littlefinger is the one who tells us how Varys operates and when questioned by Catelyn as to why would Varys ever go to him, Littlefinger gets a bit too defensive for his character. Yet, since this is the first time we meet him, we still have not opinion to judge his behaviour strange and later we just forget about it.

Later it is maester Pycelle who informs Eddard that Jon Arryn was poisoned with the Tears of Lys and ...

When this scene is unravelling, we have no idea Lysa killed her husband. We still firmly suspect the Lannisters. Now, we know that Lysa poisoned Jon's wine (women). We know that Littlefinger gave her the poison (cravens), but we still do not know where Littlefinger got the poison from (eunuchs?). Can that small sentence by Pycelle be seen as a foreshadowing of who really gave Littlefinger the poison who killed Jon Arryn? We now know that Varys does not shy away from killing his enemies. We saw how Pycelle and Kevan ended.

Littlefinger and Varys are two members of the Small Council who are considered to be of foreign extraction (Braavos) and a foreigner (Lys) respectively.

Strangely, Littlefinger changed his sigil from the Titan of Braavos into the Mockingbird. Why? Ne never tells us.

All this leads me to the question I want to ask you all. Can it be that Littlefinger had started his illustrious career as one of Varys's little birds in Riverrun? Could it be that Varys and Littlefinger have been working together all the time? It seems highly unlikely that Varys wouldn't know anything about where Sansa Stark has gone or who poisoned Joffrey, but we never see him speak up.

What do you think?

I am so glad you started this thread as I wondered this about a week or two ago, just thinking about how LF's pin is a mockingbird and Varys's henchmen are called little birds.

[shastada]

Varys wanted chaos to allow his Aegon to come in amidst the dust settling. The only thing Littlefinger did to disrupt that is to cause the chaos too soon before Varys was 'ready'. It may not be that he was working with LF but that he knew he could count on LF to be used as a pawn to create the chaos. LF was never an adversary as he was a destabilizing force. Varys gets rid of Kevan because he was a stabilizing force that would make it harder for Aegon to succeed.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I was thinking about the little kids that Ilyrio gets for Varys the other day and I was wondering why any of them would be loyal to the man who enslaved them and cut their tongues out. Then I thought that maybe they arrange some sort of trick, where they are put on a ship, and told they will be sold in Volantis or something, but then they get blown off course and have to land in Kings Landing, where Varys "discovers and frees" them, and in exchange asks for their help to protect the other children of the realm. Obviously he also kills them whenever they learn too much.

[MistressofWhisperers]

Varys wanted chaos to allow his Aegon to come in amidst the dust settling. The only thing Littlefinger did to disrupt that is to cause the chaos too soon before Varys was 'ready'. It may not be that he was working with LF but that he knew he could count on LF to be used as a pawn to create the chaos. LF was never an adversary as he was a destabilizing force. Varys gets rid of Kevan because he was a stabilizing force that would make it harder for Aegon to succeed.

:agree: LF destabilized the realm before Varys was ready with his pretender. We know he wanted to keep the lion and the wolf from coming at each others' throats per his candid convo with Illyrio and because of that he convinced Cersei to let Ned take the black. LF made a move against Varys when he convinced Joffrey to kill Ned.

I was thinking about the little kids that Ilyrio gets for Varys the other day and I was wondering why any of them would be loyal to the man who enslaved them and cut their tongues out. Then I thought that maybe they arrange some sort of trick, where they are put on a ship, and told they will be sold in Volantis or something, but then they get blown off course and have to land in Kings Landing, where Varys "discovers and frees" them, and in exchange asks for their help to protect the other children of the realm. Obviously he also kills them whenever they learn too much.

I always did wonder how he kept them loyal as well, but then I figured they must have been orphans/slaves and he was the only livelihood they had. It's still a risky venture though since they can be caught and interrogated via torture, but I guess that's why he cuts their tongues out, although they could still write their secrets to stop the torture. I guess nothing's foolproof.

Thank you all for your inputs, especially those who think that Varys and Littlefinger are rivals. We take this rivalry for granted and subconsciously, imho, we are influenced by wonderful sparing matches between two giants of Irish acting scene from the show - Conleth Hill (I just cannot love him enough) and Aiden Gillen.

But, after a careful reread, I do think this is smoke and mirrors. When I said Littlefinger may have started his career as Varys's little bird in Riverrun, I meant he may have been Varys's informant in Riverrun since childhood. Not all of the "birds" are mute. That would be too noticeable. In every village or castle, we would have a mute and know who they work for. Yet, this is not the case.

But, Littlefinger is a bird that mocks, a bird that plants its eggs in someone else's nest. Very fitting. He chose to put a bird on his sigil. And that is telling us something. I never thought beyond Littlefinger is mocking everyone on his way up. From the symbolic point of view, we can say that Littlefinger's storyline revolves around birds that have nothing to do with Varys. He is now with a "little bird" of another sort and Sweetrobin. However, the nickname predates that storyline.

Furthermore, Varys is a mummer and Littlefinger is a whoremonger. These two professions are closer than they seem to us since this is a virtual medieval world. I'd say they complement each other rather than rival each other.

Jon Arryn gets killed by Tears of Lys yet no one ever questions the man said to be from Lys. Odd.

All Ned Stark knows in King's Landing, he learns from these two characters who are doing their best to confuse him and us. Varys appears to be helping Ned Stark's case and negotiating his freedom (transfer to the Watch), but we know that he was talking to Ilirio about Stark getting killed.

Littlefinger betrayal of Stark is obvious, but LF's whispering in Joffrey's ear plants a seed of execution.

Littlefinger and Varys know way too much about each other and never attempt to stop each other. I repeat, it is inconceivable that Varys did not know who took Sansa and where. Yet he doesn't move against Baelish at all.

Anything's possible, I suppose, and we do know little enough about both of these characters, but it seems risky for Varys to enlist a nobleman's young son and take him into his confidence enough to make him a spy. I imagine Hoster would be quite put out to learn the Crown used his own ward to spy on him, plus pissed at old Lord Baelish as well, assuming he's complicit, and he'd have to be because how else would little Petyr trust Varys if his father didn't put him up to it? That's the beauty (and tragedy) of the other little birds; they are soft targets. No one would miss them if they got killed in the line of duty and they have no one else to support them except Varys.

As for the Tears of Lys, that is an interesting question, and in that Pycelle convo in Ned's POV, he's obviously trying to turn Ned against Varys, not that Ned needs help with that. I kind of figured LF purchased the poison from some black market, but we're never really given a good idea how hard it is to obtain such poisons. We are told maesters keep such poisons (with the Maester Cressen prologue in ACOK).

[Harry the Hair]

What a great topic!

Another interesting plot point that may confirm the secret Varys-LF alliance would be the Sansa-Willas betrothal. We are initially led to believe that Varys was rooting for that match which would've brought Lannisters and Tyrells closer together. Tywin said that if the Tyrells would've asked him for Sansa's hand in public, he would've had no choice but to play the gracious lord and accept, so why all the secrecy?

We also see throughout the series Varys framing the Tyrells for various crimes; notably leaving a Tyrell coin in Rugen's room which lead Cersei to suspect that the Tyrells had something to do with Tyrion's disappearance. A stable partnership between Lannisters and Tyrells seems to be the last thing Varys wants; the Sansa-Willas match was never intended to happen. And coincidentally, LF is the one who foils that plan. He clues Tywin in on the Sansa-Willas betrothal, forcing Tywin to counteract it with another wedding, he then proposes himself as a match for Sansa knowing full well that he'll be refused due to his low birth (this ain't his first rodeo) which means LF essentially instigated the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

LF and Varys are meant to appear as if they publicly oppose each other. The charade seems to be working since Cersei seems to think LF is loyal to the Lannister cause. Of course Tyrion doesn't buy the LF is a Lannister buddy act, and so he gets framed for Joff's murder and sent away to Essos thanks to Varys. Varys disappears and LF is left to assume the role of a loyal servant of the Crown.

This would mean that Varys knows exactly where Sansa is and sending the Mad Mouse to look for her is just a cover story for the real reason why he is there. I think the Mad Mouse acts as a means of communication between Varys and LF so that the two are never seen together. Cat was the only one to see Varys and LF work together (the dagger/brothel scene) and she gets killed off.

I think that the LF-Varys alliance will be confirmed in an Alayne chapter during one of her interactions with the Mad Mouse.

[Modesty Lannister]

What a great topic!

Another interesting plot point that may confirm the secret Varys-LF alliance would be the Sansa-Willas betrothal. We are initially led to believe that Varys was rooting for that match which would've brought Lannisters and Tyrells closer together. Tywin said that if the Tyrells would've asked him for Sansa's hand in public, he would've had no choice but to play the gracious lord and accept, so why all the secrecy?

We also see throughout the series Varys framing the Tyrells for various crimes; notably leaving a Tyrell coin in Rugen's room which lead Cersei to suspect that the Tyrells had something to do with Tyrion's disappearance. A stable partnership between Lannisters and Tyrells seems to be the last thing Varys wants; the Sansa-Willas match was never intended to happen. And coincidentally, LF is the one who foils that plan. He clues Tywin in on the Sansa-Willas betrothal, forcing Tywin to counteract it with another wedding, he then proposes himself as a match for Sansa knowing full well that he'll be refused due to his low birth (this ain't his first rodeo) which means LF essentially instigated the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

LF and Varys are meant to appear as if they publicly oppose each other. The charade seems to be working since Cersei seems to think LF is loyal to the Lannister cause. Of course Tyrion doesn't buy the LF is a Lannister buddy act, and so he gets framed for Joff's murder and sent away to Essos thanks to Varys. Varys disappears and LF is left to assume the role of a loyal servant of the Crown.

This would mean that Varys knows exactly where Sansa is and sending the Mad Mouse to look for her is just a cover story for the real reason why he is there. I think the Mad Mouse acts as a means of communication between Varys and LF so that the two are never seen together. Cat was the only one to see Varys and LF work together (the dagger/brothel scene) and she gets killed off.

I think that the LF-Varys alliance will be confirmed in an Alayne chapter during one of her interactions with the Mad Mouse.

I tend to agree with you and we should work to find quotes that support this. George always leaves clues in the text. Great unraveling of George's ASOIAF tapestry thread.

[ForgottenKnight]

Ironic, I just made a Varys and Littlefinger thread just before reading this one. I've always thought of them as rivals, especially now that we can see their interactions in the show. The idea of them in cahoots with one another is an utterly terrifying thought and perhaps even greater than the idea of Stannis and Dany working together. I have to say that their personalities are quite different but their upbringings have similarities. Maybe.

[DMC]

As someone who both accepts the Varys-Illyrio dungeon conversation at face value and believes Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to kill Ned, it logically doesn't follow to think the two are working together, at least during the books.

[Harry the Hair]

As someone who both accepts the Varys-Illyrio dungeon conversation at face value and believes Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to kill Ned, it logically doesn't follow to think the two are working together, at least during the books.

Was it proven that LF convinced Joff to kill Ned? This could've been one of those times when Joff acted like a douche because he just hates the Starks.