Why don't the Riverlands have a warrior culture?

[Wolf of Dorne]

I know that they do have some good Knights that come from there. Though if you look at the amount of fighting that has taken place there over the centuries. How would they not be more of a martial culture? At the same time how do the Crownlands have so many great Knights?

The reason I ask is throughout history areas that are in constant conflict usually breads a harder more war like people. Almost every war in westeros has crossed in to the Riverlands. Yet they seem to be average to below average as far as their warriors are concerned.

Or am I just dumb?

[Olligarchy]

The Riverlands are averagish when it comes to warriors... I'd imagine the explanation being something like,"If you are always the one taking it and never giving it you aren't likely to feel very enthusiastic when it comes to war."

Not since the days of Mudd Kings have the Riverlords ever been on the attack which has coloured their worldview somewhat.

[devilish]

The riverlands let their women do their fights.

[Leonardo]

The cities attract knights and high courts for obvious reasons; the Riverlands seems to be fairly wealthy though and probably have the most hedge knights. Their population density across area is probably greater than most too, as the Reach seems a fair bit larger as well as having a city.

[LordStoneheart]

It's just not a strategic place of defense like the other kingdoms are.

[Wolf of Dorne]

Also the quality of Knights born from there. Other than the Blackfish can you name a good knight from the Riverlands?

[LordStoneheart]

Also the quality of Knights born from there. Other than the Blackfish can you name a good knight from the Riverlands?

Edmure.

But also, define "good knight."

[Bobby b's bobby]

Also the quality of Knights born from there. Other than the Blackfish can you name a good knight from the Riverlands?

Jason mallister black walder Frey edmure hosteen Frey? (the Frey up north think his name is hosteen) and the demon of Darry.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

There are ok knights. Everywhere has ok knights.

But I think all their warriors die so they never get the culture, nor do they have easily defensive areas for training or practice.

It's not like the Marches, who have big castles and sworn enemies. The riverlords never know what to expect so no point having heaps of soldiers in one area. Likewise it's fertile so you want everyone farming.

A bit of an oversight but not fatal. There are reasons enough.

[Wolf of Dorne]

I never thought of Edmure as good and what I mean by a good knight is someone who is just known as a good fighter. Such as the hound or loras tyrell.

[Wolf of Dorne]

There are ok knights. Everywhere has ok knights.

But I think all their warriors die so they never get the culture, nor do they have easily defensive areas for training or practice.

It's not like the Marches, who have big castles and sworn enemies. The riverlords never know what to expect so no point having heaps of soldiers in one area. Likewise it's fertile so you want everyone farming.

A bit of an oversight but not fatal. There are reasons enough.

[devilish]

What's the point of having good knights? The land is indefensible. It has too many frontiers to defend, too many swamps and is hardly the richest land in Westeros. Marriage matchups are their only way of survival. I am actually surprised that Edmure wasn't already married by the time of GOT. Margaery Tyrell and Asha Greyjoy would have been great match ups although such marriage would have proved difficult. Another convenient marriage would have been with one of the Freys (which would have contributed to give some stability to the Riverlands) or alternatively with Desmera Redwyne. Edmure links with Redwynes would have probably had been enough to either sway the Tyrells in Robb's favor (Robb's marrying Margaery) or Robb to the Tyrells and Baratheons.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

What's the point of having good knights? The land is indefensible. It has too many frontiers to defend, too many swamps and is hardly the richest land in Westeros. Marriage matchups are their only way of survival. I am actually surprised that Edmure wasn't already married by the time of GOT. Margaery Tyrell and Asha Greyjoy would have been great match ups although such marriage would have proved difficult. Another convenient marriage would have been with one of the Freys (which would have contributed to give some stability to the Riverlands) or alternatively with Desmera Redwyne. Edmure links with Redwynes would have probably had been enough to either sway the Tyrells in Robb's favor (Robb's marrying Margaery) or Robb to the Tyrells and Baratheons.

Now the marriages are a plot requirement. Not too many swamps, only really the Neck and at the Twins and Seagard area (lots of smaller rivers) and the lands are very very fertile, just smaller so not less fertile but less productive.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I never thought of Edmure as good and what I mean by a good knight is someone who is just known as a good fighter. Such as the hound or loras tyrell.

Or the Blackfish?

The Demon of Darry was clearly something of a great warrior as were Bloodraven and Bittersteel.

The Lads of the Riverlands during the Dance of the Dragons were quite the warriors who were heavily involved with defeating the Westerlands, Stormlands armies and helped against the Reach army.

Of the current generation Jason Mallister is a renowned knight, the Freys boast Black Walder, Stevron and Walder Rivers who are all respected Warriors. There are probably others but we dont get too many details outside of the men with Roose and Robb. Take the Battle of the Fords, we dont really get details of which Riverland warriors stood out against Clegane, Marbrand, Crakehall and the other elite Westerland army.

[devilish]

Now the marriages are a plot requirement. Not too many swamps, only really the Neck and at the Twins and Seagard area (lots of smaller rivers) and the lands are very very fertile, just smaller so not less fertile but less productive.

Its still indefensible, not particularly rich or renowned for its warriors. Hence why marriages are so important for them even in a time of peace. I don't blame the Tullys for it. You can only play the hand one is dealt. Not everyone has endless lands protected by cold winters, miles of mountains or rich mines.

I blame the tullys on three things

a- not sorting their pending issues with the Freys. You don't snob powerful bannermen that way. You either destroy them or make them your allies

b- allowing their members to do whatever its pleased them. Lysa went bonkers, the black fish refused to get married etc. They should have instilled some discipline in their ranks

c- Not training Edmure well enough. He should have been sent to Eddard Stark were he would learn one thing or two about fighting

[thelittledragonthatcould]

b- allowing their members to do whatever its pleased them. Lysa went bonkers, the black fish refused to get married etc. They should have instilled some discipline in their ranks

Lysa didn't get to do as she pleased, she was made to marry a man in his 60's who was likely infertile. She didn't want to but she did it for the family. Her duty after that was to her son.

The Blackfish refused to get married and was pretty much exiled from Riverrun as a result. There was nothing else Hoster could do.

Both Hoster and Ned had a brother who didnt want to supply the family with more heirs.

c- Not training Edmure well enough. He should have been sent to Eddard Stark were he would learn one thing or two about fighting

How do you know Edmure was a poor fighter or that Ned would have improved his fighting abilities?

[Mladen]

Also the quality of Knights born from there. Other than the Blackfish can you name a good knight from the Riverlands?

Darry and Whent, two members of the famous Aerys' Kingsguard were from Riverlands.

I have no idea where the opinion that Riverlands have no warrior culture came from. This is the region that saw most fighting, not just in current ASOIAF, but in entire history of Westeros.

[devilish]

Lysa didn't get to do as she pleased, she was made to marry a man in his 60's who was likely infertile. She didn't want to but she did it for the family. Her duty after that was to her son.

The Blackfish refused to get married and was pretty much exiled from Riverrun as a result. There was nothing else Hoster could do.

Both Hoster and Ned had a brother who didnt want to supply the family with more heirs.

How do you know Edmure was a poor fighter or that Ned would have improved his fighting abilities?

It seemed that the old trout had failed to instill the sense of discipline within his family that was intrinsic to a successful noble family in the feudal times. Lysa refused to send her armies to help the Riverlands, Cat released a powerful pawn knowing that she was going to put her family into trouble and the Black fish refused to get married. You wont see that within the Tyrells and Baratheons (ok Renly didn't actually bend the knee to Stannis but lets face it both obeyed Robert like lap dogs).

I know that I am being unfair towards the Tullys. After all other families do what they please. Jamie kept screwing Cersei under Robert and Tywin's nose. The Targs had Rhaegar stealing Lyanna causing a war in the process etc. There again there are powerful families and less powerful ones. The latter should use more brains and less heart.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You wont see that within the Tyrells and Baratheons (ok Renly didn't actually bend the knee to Stannis but lets face it both obeyed Robert like lap dogs).

Renly wanted to arrest his brothers children and when that plan didn't materialize decided to usurp their throne. There is no discipline from him.

He obeyed his brother when Robert was both supremely generous to him and have the majority of the support, had things gone differently I think he'd be as willing to betray Robert as he was Roberts children.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Its still indefensible, not particularly rich or renowned for its warriors. Hence why marriages are so important for them even in a time of peace. I don't blame the Tullys for it. You can only play the hand one is dealt. Not everyone has endless lands protected by cold winters, miles of mountains or rich mines.

I blame the tullys on three things

a- not sorting their pending issues with the Freys. You don't snob powerful bannermen that way. You either destroy them or make them your allies

b- allowing their members to do whatever its pleased them. Lysa went bonkers, the black fish refused to get married etc. They should have instilled some discipline in their ranks

c- Not training Edmure well enough. He should have been sent to Eddard Stark were he would learn one thing or two about fighting

A. Ehhh, while Edmure should have married a Frey, they weren't being outright rebellious. There crimes are lesser then Mootons, Rygers and Darrys, who fought against the Tully's, while the Frey's were simply late. So can't fault them for not acting on something they had no evidence for.

B. As Lil Dragon said, the madness is hardly Lysa's fault. It certainly didn't please her. Blackfish was an issue.

C. Edmure can fight... He got carved at Riverrun, but the Fords was a success (although it worked against them). Eddard had a cool sword, but wasn't a great fighter in terms of elite.

The Tully's main faults are;

1. Family, Duty, Honour. Sticking to this to closely can lead to narrow mindedness (looking after only their children, being too trusting, not being trusting enough).

2. None seem very... forward thinking? Yeah. Blackfish does, but the others act for their FAMILY.

And other problems that affect them are their proximity to well... the Vale, the North, the West, the Reach... everywhere. Can't blame them for that.

They aren't very good at problem resolution. The Bracken/Blackwood feud continues, which is not a good sign. Control Hoster, get some!

Likewise they have a poor hold over their vassals (Frey's are an example, so are the Targ loyalists (although that isn't really their fault, but more that their vassals are a bit tenacious)).

Plus, the divisiveness of the Riverlords in general (Darrys and Mallisters hate Freys etc...). While not all lords answered their calls to arm (the Green Fork lords, but they were occupied) their geography works for and against them.