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Empathy for Villains


Sithis

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This thread is dedicated to understanding the motivations behind the "bad guys." This is not about whether you like them or not, but rather if you can empathize with them.



Examples:



Tyrion murdering Shae wasn't right or justified, but I understand why he was pushed over the edge. After a lifetime of humiliation, the Tysha situation, being sentenced to death for a crime he did not commit, etc., it is easy to see why Tyrion lost it.



The Iron Borne are known for pillaging and raping, which is obviously NOT okay for many reasons. But they cannot help that they were born on the Iron Islands. It is a way of life that they were raised with.



The Hound has done some pretty terrible things in his day. His anger, however, is a result of being burned by his own brother, who went on to become knighted anyways. Sandor had a pretty crappy childhood which resulted in a hateful man.



The Sons of the Harpy: They are murderers and criminals. And they support slavery, However, you have to consider that an outsider came in, conquered their city, and changed their way of life. Who wouldn't have a problem if this happened to them?



Of course some characters that really are just evil IMO.


Ramsay, The Mountain, etc.



There are certainly other examples, I am curious to hear what you guys think.





Cheers





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Faceless Men. They are assassins, seem pretty evil. Would kill anyone, albeit absurdly expensive.



I think there is obviously a religious element to what they do. They consider killing sacred and in the natural order of things. Having been started in slave mines, their disposition is somewhat understandable...

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Ramsey is pretty much Esteban García of Isabel Allende's "The House of the Spirits".

The conditions under which he was conceived in the first place, and subsequently his upbringing, could be enough to fuck up a person in a really ugly way.

I never really considered that. Good point and part of the reason I started this topic.

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This thread is dedicated to understanding the motivations behind the "bad guys." This is not about whether you like them or not, but rather if you can empathize with them.

Of course some characters that really are just evil IMO.

Ramsay, The Mountain, etc.

There are certainly other examples, I am curious to hear what you guys think.

Cheers

Even the Mountain is more than just evil. He is a tormented being, born too big for his own good. He constantly suffers headaches and at times can barely think straight.

Both he and Tyrion show what happens when nature goes awry.

Of course, a wounded bear will still eat you alive so his fate was deserved.

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Ramsey is pretty much Esteban García of Isabel Allende's "The House of the Spirits".

The conditions under which he was conceived in the first place, and subsequently his upbringing, could be enough to fuck up a person in a really ugly way.

There's also Ramsay's desire to show Roose that he's a true Bolton (by flaying people and getting people to listen to Roose) and his desire for feeling powerful (by torturing a noble like Theon) because of how his mom and Reek were always whispering to him about his heritage. Ramsay was raised as a powerless commoner.

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Show-only, but I can kind of empathize with Joffrey during some of his more lucid moments. A lot of the time, such as his "fight" with the direwolf, or his desertion at the Blackwater, he seems like a son who so desperately wants to live up to his father's legacy, but finds himself unable to. This shames him far more than any of his actual evil acts. From the "Best Acted Scenes in GoT" thread:





Everything Joffrey. One aspect of the show that I've NEVER complained about is his portrayal. Jack Gleeson makes the character so entertaining and rich. He plays Joffrey PERFECTLY when he's cruel and obnoxious. You just want to punch him in the damn face every time he shows that stupid smug smile. But he manages to add some depth to the little shit too. I actually almost felt bad for Show Joffrey at times; the scene where he leaves during the Battle of Blackwater in particular is just an amazing piece of acting and characterization, IMO.



In these 30 seconds, we see that he's a coward, a braggart, and a hypocrite, but at the same time, he's human. He clearly doesn't WANT to leave his soldiers; he knows full well how craven and dishonorable it is, which is horrible for him, since he wants to become a worthy successor to the BADASS MANLY WARRIOR father that he never got the attention and approval of. There's a small hint there for just the tiniest bit of redemption as he considers what to do, as well as a subtle reminder that he's just a spoiled teenager in over his head as he asks his uncle what to do. But he fails to summon the necessary courage and ultimately flees, because he fears for his life and can't truly defy his mother when it matters. Just a great scene all around:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvCDCjL67U




Also, Janos Slynt. Yes, he's a huge douchebag and criminal, he's corrupt as fuck, and Renly and Robert could have saved everyone a lot of trouble if they listened to Stannis and got rid of him. But some of his so-called "worst" moments are really understandable when you look at them from outside the view of our POV characters. I can see a lot of regular guys doing the same thing in his position.



-Slaughter of Robert's bastards: this crime was not conducted under Slynt's orders. He got direct orders from the Queen to make this happen. All he's guilty of is organizing it- and in that regard, he did the best he could considering the task. He gave the bloody assignments to his most psychopathic officers. Intentional or not, this probably spared some of his "good" gold cloaks a lot of psychological trauma.



-Killing Ned's men and arresting Ned: from Slynt's POV, he was 100% in the right here. He had been led to believe that Joffrey legitimately was the rightful king, and that Neddard was selfishly trying to destabilize the entire realm anyway. I'm not sure if this entered his mind at any point, but pretty much anybody else would do the same thing.



-Imprisoning Jon: Snow is an absolutely awful subordinate. He tried to kill a commanding officer (twice!), actually DID kill another one, attempted to desert, successfully deserted, defected, and then came back claiming all of that stuff was justified, with nothing but his word as proof. Any sane person would be justified in arresting him at that point.



-Execution: one of the most infuriatingly self-righteous and hypocritical moments in the books. Jon has Slynt killed because Slynt insulted Jon and refused to obey an order initially before agreeing to obey it. Keep in mind that Slynt had just recently been sent to the Wall despite his loyal service to the new regime. He will never his family again, and will never have access to the funds that he, in his mind, rightfully earned, as a self-made man. But at least he'll be respected on the Wall, right? Well, no, actually. Instead, the bastard who has rightfully earned himself a death sentence ten times over gets it in his mind to talk down to Slynt. Then the bastard, with no prior warning (it's outright shown that threatening to execute him makes him fold immediately), decides to behead Slynt. Again, even though this highborn Lord Commander has betrayed the Watch countless times. It's enough to convince a man that there's no real justice in the world.


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-Imprisoning Jon: Snow is an absolutely awful subordinate. He tried to kill a commanding officer (twice!), actually DID kill another one, attempted to desert, successfully deserted, defected, and then came back claiming all of that stuff was justified, with nothing but his word as proof. Any sane person would be justified in arresting him at that point.

A lot of Jon's actions are better explained in the books. And keep in mind he is very young and had to take on the task of commanding the NW at its lowest point in history.

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A lot of Jon's actions are better explained in the books. And keep in mind he is very young and had to take on the task of commanding the NW at its lowest point in history.

I've read the books.

That's the thing. Jon gets more sympathy from the audience for his fuck-ups because he's in a bad place in his life. He's under a lot of pressure, is only 17, lost his family, etc. But what about Slynt? Unlike Jon, he didn't get to choose to come to the Wall. He had his life destroyed by Tyrion despite serving loyally, he had his money and possessions taken away after years of social climbing, he's never going to see his kids and wife again, and he has to take orders from a highborn kid who did nothing to earn his position and did a lot of stuff worthy of execution. Then he gets killed because said highborn kid is a spiteful hypocrite. All things considered, refusing an order before agreeing to it is small potatoes, and arresting Jon after he admits to deserting and tries to kill an officer is the only sane thing to do. In his place, I have a feeling that most people would do the exact same thing. Again, he's far from a good person, but I can empathize with his position.

The only really "bad" things he does happen prior to the start of the series. He committed many crimes in his time as the commander of the gold cloaks. He was corrupt as hell and appointed incompetent and/or "evil" people to key offices for bribe money. Given the amount of harm he probably caused, it would be justified to execute him or send him to the Wall just for that. But, that's not actually what he gets punished for, since Renly and Robert (and LF) just brushed off Stannis when he brought up Slynt's corruption. Instead, he gets punished for doing the same things as many protagonists. But we don't see Slynt from a sympathetic POV. So he gets vilified, while fans cheer for Barristan, Cat, Jon, Greatjon, etc.

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There's also Ramsay's desire to show Roose that he's a true Bolton (by flaying people and getting people to listen to Roose) and his desire for feeling powerful (by torturing a noble like Theon) because of how his mom and Reek were always whispering to him about his heritage. Ramsay was raised as a powerless commoner.

I didn't think it was possible, but you got me to feel like I understand some of Ramsey's motivations now. All of his crimes seem to originate from a place of trying to be a Bolton, but actually being a Snow. As previously stated, the flaying = traditional Bolton. Torturing Theon = jealousy and rage at Theon being a trueborn Lord. Hunting women = an even more twisted and perverse reimagining of his father violently taking his first night rites with Ramsey's mother. Roose was out hunting, he caught sight of Ramsey's mother, "chased" her, raped her, and ended the whole thing with murder by killing her husband. :eek: In fact, all of his violence to women (including his wives) could be related to trying to justify/exemplify/normalize his father's rape of his mother. Mind blown. His actions just seemed so inexplicably crazy and random before, but I guess now there is a pattern.

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I didn't think it was possible, but you got me to feel like I understand some of Ramsey's motivations now. All of his crimes seem to originate from a place of trying to be a Bolton, but actually being a Snow. As previously stated, the flaying = traditional Bolton. Torturing Theon = jealousy and rage at Theon being a trueborn Lord. Hunting women = an even more twisted and perverse reimagining of his father violently taking his first night rites with Ramsey's mother. Roose was out hunting, he caught sight of Ramsey's mother, "chased" her, raped her, and ended the whole thing with murder by killing her husband. :eek: In fact, all of his violence to women (including his wives) could be related to trying to justify/exemplify/normalize his father's rape of his mother. Mind blown. His actions just seemed so inexplicably crazy and random before, but I guess now there is a pattern.

Speaking of which:

Roose seemed amused by that. "All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard. As for this … Reek … if you have not ruined him beyond redemption, he may yet be of some use to us. Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother."

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips. He feared he might leap the table with his dagger in his hand.

"Has my bastard ever told you how I got him?"

That he did know, to his relief. "Yes, my … m'lord. You met his mother whilst out riding and were smitten by her beauty."

"Smitten?" Bolton laughed. "Did he use that word? Why, the boy has a singer's soul … though if you believe that song, you may well be dimmer than the first Reek. Even the riding part is wrong.

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I didn't think it was possible, but you got me to feel like I understand some of Ramsey's motivations now. All of his crimes seem to originate from a place of trying to be a Bolton, but actually being a Snow. As previously stated, the flaying = traditional Bolton. Torturing Theon = jealousy and rage at Theon being a trueborn Lord. Hunting women = an even more twisted and perverse reimagining of his father violently taking his first night rites with Ramsey's mother. Roose was out hunting, he caught sight of Ramsey's mother, "chased" her, raped her, and ended the whole thing with murder by killing her husband. :eek: In fact, all of his violence to women (including his wives) could be related to trying to justify/exemplify/normalize his father's rape of his mother. Mind blown. His actions just seemed so inexplicably crazy and random before, but I guess now there is a pattern.

Whoa, I didn't think that far but that makes a lot of sense. Ramsay also gets extremely angry when someone calls him a bastard and that is because he wants to be a true Bolton. I wonder if Ramsay actually cared about his mother.

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Tywin and the Tysha incident

It was a disgusting vile act that cannot be defended but I can see why Tywin did it.

At the time he's likely offering Tyrion as a suitor and being rejected (despite offering gold too I think) and all of a sudden he's married to a lowborn. Tywin probably that its unlikely that she loved Tyrion and acted out of desire for wealth and status, making her appear like a whore (to Tywin).

Keeping in mind that Jaimes a KG, Tyrion is heir to Casterly Rock (I doubt Tywin always planned on denying Tyrion he rock) and married to, in Tywins mind, a whore. Now bear in mind that Tywin watched his father and mothers memory get humiliated by a whore living in Casterly Rock.

I think Tywin hears this and immediately thinks of some lowborn wearing Joannas jewelry. Thus he acts brutally in order to ensure Tyrion doesn't resemble his grandfather.

I think the Tywin/Joanna relationship had a deeper impact on him than anyone realised, acknowledging the fact that people said that said she ran him.

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Yay, I love talking about Ramsay!





Whoa, I didn't think that far but that makes a lot of sense. Ramsay also gets extremely angry when someone calls him a bastard and that is because he wants to be a true Bolton. I wonder if Ramsay actually cared about his mother.




I don't know about love, but he didn't hate his mom. She was basically all he had for a while. She even confronted Roose and forced him to partially take responsibility for Ramsay (even if it meant sending Reek to them). Even Roose marveled at her audacity and contemplated punishing her for it, but in the end, he gave her what she wanted. The woman had brass balls.



I love the Reek chapters from ADWD, partially because you get a lot of Roose/Ramsay characterization.



"...The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope..."

Roose killed a man all for the principle that he was denied his "rights." Then he raped Ramsay's mother underneath her husband's swaying corpse to teach her a lesson as well. It wasn't even done for pleasure because he didn't even enjoy it. It just shows how cold Roose is and how he rules his people with an iron fist.





"A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should’ve had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. She told me that when her dead husband’s brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill and had the brother’s tongue cut out, to make certain he did not go running to Winterfell with tales that might disturb Lord Rickard."



Here he talks about having the mother of his child whipped because she dared ask for some support and contemplating killing his own child. Then he maims one of his own smallfolk so he doesn't tell the truth to his liegelord.





"...He should have been content to grind corn. Does he truly think that he can ever rule the north?”


“He is your only son.”


“For the moment.



There he is again talking about how his son basically has no future. It doesn't look good for Ramsay. It seems like Roose's plan before Theon made off with Jeyne was for Ramsay to father a child on "Arya" and secure Winterfell and the north. Then bye bye Ramsay...



I feel like Roose and Ramsay's relationship is kind of like Frankenstein & his monster. Who is more evil? The monster who was created to be one or his creator? Or is it a case where the monster is more human than his creator? After all, we know Ramsay's motivations and what made him this way. Roose is stone cold heartless and has men flayed dispassionately. Sure, he was raised that way, but he had a lot more privilege than resentful corn-grinding Ramsay.


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