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Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn


LmL

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"Ned Stark's own steel."



I think that Ned's beheading by Ice was counted as a blood sacrifice and as a result, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are now super-enchanted, even for a regular VS sword.



"A grey so dark it looked almost black" is both the color of regular VS and the eyes of Jon.


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I sometimes agree with this idea - the maesters are the good guys. Magic is bad. Mithras strongly believes this. I never thought about the real reason the citadel is against magic being because they know it brings the Others down on us. But if this is so, it seems like the Others should have come soon after Aegon invaded. The exact cause of the Others invasion is a pretty wide open mystery, though, so nothing can be ruled out.

So, I'm a bit behind after this weekend, and since I'm at work I haven't been able to finish reading all the pages that I'm currently behind on...

Anyways, the part I bolded above, about the Others not showing up right after Aegon showed up in Westeros - If *you* haven't been seen in 8000 years, and are (hypothetically*) immortal, 300 years is a drop in the bucket. Maybe it's taken them 300ish years to mobilize. It could be that Aegon landing in Westeros was the catalyst to start, but I'm *assuming* that the Others have their own forms of timekeeping that may not resemble human timekeeping in any way shape or form. So maybe Aegon landing perked up their ears, so to speak, then the Dance of the Dragons probably had them paying attention, too. And maybe it's just taken them 300ish years to prepare for their "invasion?"

Slightly off topic, but I feel like I should explain where this idea is coming from: when I was younger I went to a Catholic school, but my family has never been particularly religious and once I got into an argument with a very religious person. She was trying to convince me that God really did make the world in exactly 7 days, 24 hour days, etc. My argument back (mostly just to shut her up) was "How do you know God's days are the same as human days?" This was middle school, so my logic behind that was if God is immortal/eternal/whatever you want to call it, what are the chances s/he uses Earth days to keep their time? It's always seemed to me that someone/thing bigger and better and *outside* of us wouldn't use such a human creation as timekeeping - and if they did, they'd make their own.

TL;DR - Just like different cultures use different calendars, different types of beings would use different timekeeping methods. 300 years seems long to humans, maybe not so much to the Others.

*we don't know if they are immortal, and it really doesn't matter for the sake of my post - it just seemed like a good point that immortals wouldn't necessarily use mortal timekeeping.

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This comes from Astronomy of Planetos II but the thread is locked

Modesty Lannister's mention of Dunk made me wonder. A forebear of Brienne, with a shooting star on his shield... sounds promising. Do you have a theory about him, LmL ?

I know that there is something there, Ive definitely noticed the shield heraldry connection... I need to re-read D & E now that I have this theory in mind. Mithras quoted a passage from D & E with Bloodraven disguised as Maynard Plum that sounded pretty rich. So no, no theory yet, except that I would expect to find more confirmation / detail of the astronomy of Lightbringer.

I've just found a Dunk tee-shirt at Redbubble and the obvious connection came in : a shooting star is a meteor, your theory claims the meteors that were the fragments of the shattered moon were seen as dragons in the qartheen legend... and Dunk sees the shooting star the night Egg, aka Aegon Targaryen, so a dragon, comes to his camp to be taken as squire.

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I've just found a Dunk tee-shirt at Redbubble and the obvious connection came in : a shooting star is a meteor, your theory claims the meteors that were the fragments of the shattered moon were seen as dragons in the qartheen legend... and Dunk sees the shooting star the night Egg, aka Aegon Targaryen, so a dragon, comes to his camp to be taken as squire.

Nice. Though I'm a one Moon kind of man, this is a very nice connection.

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man I really need to re-read D&E. I forgot entirely that Dunk actually saw a shooting star. I'm sure that passage is loaded. Nice catch Mr. Redfort!

I agree that time may be different to 8,000 year old beings, that's a definite possibility. Makes it kind if hard to pinpoint any direct cause though, and I do think that's a riddle meant to be solved, so I tend to think this is not the answer. But it's possible.

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man I really need to re-read D&E. I forgot entirely that Dunk actually saw a shooting star. I'm sure that passage is loaded. Nice catch Mr. Redfort!

I agree that time may be different to 8,000 year old beings, that's a definite possibility. Makes it kind if hard to pinpoint any direct cause though, and I do think that's a riddle meant to be solved, so I tend to think this is not the answer. But it's possible.

I'm rereading THK right now. The falling star is green! Pretty cool.
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I'm rereading THK right now. The falling star is green! Pretty cool.

Hmm... the comet heralding the return of dragons was red and the star in eye of the ice dragon's rider is blue... green, red and blue... where have I seen that color combination before?
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A three headed river :)

Perhaps there is a dragon with three heads out there, with similsr colors, although I suspect the red head would look black when contrasted with the green one, as would the green head when contrasted with the red one.
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Quotes are acting wonky, but responding to that last bit, I am 100% sure that dragons existed before the LN catastrophe. The dragons do not come from moon rock. I do think the Bloodstone Emperor used the moon rock to alter dragons, perhaps, either creating the method of dragonbonding used by the Valyrians involving the "blood of the dragon" experiment / infusion / crossbreeding whatever, or by creating the black dragons with black fire. The Five Forts and Hightower fortress prove that dragons existed, and were controlled by sorcerers, before the LN. So even though I thought maybe the black stone enabled the crossbreeding of wyverns and firewyrms, no, that cannot be. They existed first. I don't buy the wyvern / wyrm thing at all, myself. I think dragons are a product of the planet and have always existed. But regardless, the literal dragons did not come from the meteors.

The comet is seen as a dragon, so when it impregnated the moon, the moon would then have baby dragons. And it did - it had baby comets (meteors). Ironically, most of the living dragons probably died during the Long Night, along with everything else.

As for the transformation of the rock, try to think about the fire moon (check out the link above to Io moon wiki). It's magma in the middle, surrounded by molten rock and a highly volcanic rocky crust. When the moon exploded, that magma went out into space. If any of it reached the atmosphere of the planet, it would harden into obsidian. During the Doom, dragon glass rained down from the sky (along with black blood - like the greasy black BLOODstone), an interesting connection. But the fire moon is exploded, its magma gone. The large pieces of black bloodstone rock are the pieces of the crust, the only solid rock on the moon. The "heart of fire" is the key here, as the R'hllorists call him. When the Nissa moon loses its fiery heart, it dies. Those greasy black rocks are DEAD moon goddess. They are transformed, "radiated" by the explosion, and soaked in her blood. These Nissa corpse meteors "drank the fire of the sun" as they fell, and the greasy stone at Asshai "drinks the light" from everything. This sounds like radiation to me, and the result is a stone which drink sunlight. As I have pointed out many times, Ned's sword (or the ones made from them) drink the light when Tobho tried to color them, just as you'd expect from a sword made from the black moon rock.

Thus, the offspring of comet and moon are the moon rocks which "drank the sun's fire" - these rocks are from the flesh of the mother, seeded by the father and imbued with the father's fire. Remember, frozen fire (dragon glass) is black too, but it kills Others and does seem to be exactly what it is billed as, so it's not odd for something imbued with fire to be dark in color.

Finally, the moon goddess rocks DID serve a noble purpose. First, if Nissa hadn't been in the way, it may well have been earth which was hit directly by the comet. In that way her death is a sacrifice. But once on earth, and imbued in the dark light bringer sword, they also eventually found their way ti a good purpose - fighting the Others.

Getting back to the idea of the wall being fused stone, that implies someone with dragons helped to build it. I already thought that dragons made it that far north in the Dawn Age, so this isn't weird to me.

Just had some wild thoughts on the bolded quote above in connection with the properties of dragonbone:

Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of the wine, and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire.

Black, high iron content and utterly impervious to fire - this describes a meteorite, iron meteorites, which originate from planetary cores. They also survive the extreme heat generated on atmospheric entry. We know the Valyrians were well versed in the art of fusing and forming 'black stone' into all kinds of artful shapes. Could they have used the moon rock to forge dragon skeletons in the fires of the 14 flames and developed the rest of the beast via sorcery? Normal bone is not impervious to fire. The idea fits with the moon breaking up / dragon creation metaphor.

I also think that dragons existed before the long night, perhaps even until after the long night. We have the mention of Nagga, the sea dragon, Sea Dragon Point and interestingly, the Sea Dragon Tower at dragonstone with the maester's chambers at the very top. Perhaps this suggests that sea dragons served as a model for, or were reworked by people with the knowledge to do so? There's a dragon in Asian mythology known as 'Naga' - it's snake-like, mostly depicted without wings, which is what I would expect a dragon-like creature adapted to an aquatic environment to look like. Then we have the legend about Battle Isle being a roost for dragons. The original foundation of black stone with its labyrithine interior structure doesn't appear to be much of a roost (our three favourite dragons like high places), but it might have been a kind of aquarium for sea dragons - I'm imagining them slithering along those labyrinthine tunnels :) Perhaps the Valyrians used the place as an experimental station - hmm.

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Mithras posted an excellent round up of sea serpents in another thread earlier today:

Storm God vs. Serpent/Dragon battle is typical in many myths.

One common myth which can be found among almost all Indo-European mythologies is a battle ending with the slaying of a serpent, usually a dragon of some sort (Watkins 1995).

There are also analogous stories in other neighbouring mythologies: Anu or Marduk vs. Tiamat in Mesopotamian mythology; Ra vs. Apep in Egyptian mythology; Baal or El vs. Lotan or Yam-Nahar in Levantine mythology; Yahweh or Gabriel vs. Leviathan or Rahabor Tannin in Jewish mythology; Michael the Archangel and, Christ vs. Satan (in the form of a seven-headed dragon), Virgin Mary crushing a serpent in Roman Catholic iconography (see Book of Revelation 12), Saint George and the Dragon in Christian mythology. The myth symbolized a clash between forces of order and chaos (represented by the serpent), and the god or hero would always win (except in some mythologies, such as the Norse Ragnarök myth in which both die). Serpentine aspects can be found in many Greek aquatic deities, most notably Poseidon, Oceanus, Triton, Typhon (who carries many chthonic attributes while not specifically linked with the sea), Ophion, and also the Slavic Veles. Possibly called *kʷr̥mis, or some name cognate with *Velnos/Werunos or the root *Wel/Vel- (VS Varuna, who is associated with the serpentine naga, Vala and Vṛtra, Slavic Veles, Baltic velnias), or "serpent" (Hittite Illuyanka, VS Ahis, Iranian azhi, Greek ophis and Ophion, and Latin anguis), or the root *dheubh- (Greek Typhon and Python).
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So Evolett, what you're saying is, the Bloodstone Emepror was running some sort of Weapon X program, and the dragons are basically like Wolverine.

Keep your fan fiction to yourself, Evolett! Haha just kidding. I have considered variations of this idea, as far as what the meteors might have to do with dragons, since obviously dragons did exist prior to the meteors. The best thing I came up with so far is the idea that perhaps the BSE / AA made the black dragons, the biggest ones that breathe black fire. Or perhaps he created the blood bond between family line and dragon. I suspect both may be true. The idea of man harnessing sea dragons or firewyrms to make fused black stone just seems too far fetched to me, and without precedent. And what about the five forts? They aren't anywhere near the see or a volcano. I really think the Great Empire had a different way of bonding with dragons, more like a skinchanger bond that is mutually acceptable. But I do think the leviathan mythology is important, and the mystery of the sea dragon is at the center of the Ironborn history.

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No, I don't imagine the BSE had any dragons nor that he created them. But my guess is that there is more to the Blood Betrayal than meets the eye. Dany's dream suggests that the gem emperors were her ancestors and if so, then the people of Valyria (or at least some of them) are probably descendants of the Yi Ti civilization. We also have that little detail about the BSE taking a tiger-woman to wife. The closest thing to a tiger-woman offered in the World Book are the Brindled Men of Sothoryos, a savage and barbaric race with thick brindled skins, patterned in brown and white. They are described as cannibals and ghouls, supposedly feast on the flesh of their foes and the dead. They practice obscene rites and worship dark gods (sounds like Old Nan's talk about the Others). I think we can all agree that taking such a woman to wife represents an abomination and their offspring would be as well. It's stated their women can't breed with humans, but that doesn't stop brindled men from breeding with human women, producing children with 'tainted' qualities or tainted blood. If these brindled people are as bad as they sound, then the BSE's alliance with them through his wife represents another kind of Blood Betrayal. Call it the blood of the beast if you will. It's a poison. Further down the line and centuries later, we would still find people with this tainted blood (is this where the Bolton's get their bad blood from?). So let's spin this idea further - Old Valyria is founded and some of these founders harbour the 'blood of the beast'. They practice sorcery etc and discover the possibilites of harnessing this blood to create and or bond with dragons. Did they 'genetically engineer' the brindled wyverns and bond to them by virtue of this tainted blood? Are the people of Valyrian descent or the Targaryens in particular still tainted in this way? By the laws of genetics, some of them could be but these genes need not express themselves in all descendants. We've seen exceptionally cruel Targaryen kings - Maegor and Aerys II, for example. This notion also gives new meaning to the prince that was promised, who according to the prophecy would be born of a certain line of Targaryens, a particular bloodline. Could the blood of this person be free of the taint of the original blood betrayal (and one who might end the conditions under which this tainted blood spreads once and for all) ?. I personally think Dany is this promised 'prince'.



And another thought regarding R'hllor and the Red Priests. Let's go back to the scene in which Mel drinks from Maester Cressen poisoned cup. He dies while she lives. She tells us that her god does have power and that fire cleanses. Fire cleanes or neutralizes the poison in the blood. If fire can neutralize poison, perhaps it can also neutralize bad blood? Does this explain the origin of the red religion and if so, will these powers help to cleanse the tainted blood of humans in general or at least of some characters relevant to the story?


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Been reading something about medieval Arthurian mythology. In the later iterations Fisher King, who is very important for bunch of reasons (Fisher Queens, him being part of Celtic mythology Martin used heavily...), is named Bron. Unrelated to the legend, Bron as a name can mean "son of a dark man"



Also there is quite a lot of flaming weaponry, and it is always wielded by Black knights, who are bad guys and/or demonic entities. This could be another influence and hint towards your theory but it can also be subverted later because Rhaegar is most famous black knight in Westeros who is great knight and obviously fantasy Black Prince, another hailed bastion of chivalry.


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Good stuff EQ. I'll look into that. I'm trying to finish up the two swords essay right now, so thanks very much. ;)

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Good stuff EQ. I'll look into that. I'm trying to finish up the two swords essay right now, so thanks very much. ;)

Hey LML. Although a bit late to the party [ Took a while to catch up ] I have very much enjoyed these threads, and all the subsequent posters have added some wonderful ideas and info, Bravo ! Much appreciated ! :)

While I formulate the exact details of your wonderful essays, I thought I'd dip my toe in and say that I very much look forward to the essay on the two swords. I find the 'splitting' of Ice.... what that means, and Jaime + Brienne's arc very interesting.

Also, some of the new angles you [ and others ] have brought to the table have enhanced my understanding of this series, and for that, I'm very grateful. I look forward to [ hopefully ] being able to contribute to any discussion in the future. :D

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Hey LML. Although a bit late to the party [ Took a while to catch up ] I have very much enjoyed these threads, and all the subsequent posters have added some wonderful ideas and info, Bravo ! Much appreciated ! :)

While I formulate the exact details of your wonderful essays, I thought I'd dip my toe in and say that I very much look forward to the essay on the two swords. I find the 'splitting' of Ice.... what that means, and Jaime + Brienne's arc very interesting.

Also, some of the new angles you [ and others ] have brought to the table have enhanced my understanding of this series, and for that, I'm very grateful. I look forward to [ hopefully ] being able to contribute to any discussion in the future. :D

Thanks Wizz, that's about as cool a thing as anyone can say about the thread. Hopefully, if the theory is close to the mark, all we are doing is uncovering the brilliance that is George R. R. Martin's imagination - quite an undertaking. It's really deepened my understanding of the series as well, just trying to follow the trail. I've also learned a lot about mythology, one of my favorite subjects.

The conversation after the threads has been the highlight of this whole thing for me. Getting people's creative juices flowing is exactly what I was hoping to do, and its been terrific. It's really become such a team effort. A lot of people send me messages with juicy tidbits as well, even beyond what's left in the comments. It's been a lot of fun, above all. :cheers:

As for jumping in, just be on the lookout for any kind of astronomy references or sun and moon imagery and post it up when you notice it. I've found them in some really weird places (Evolett caught one happening in the Butterbumps / Sansa / Queen of Thorns / Bear-and-the-Maiden-Fair scene, that one is tasty).

Two Moons and Two Swords essays are both developing together... they kind of parallel each other, and icy white sword associated with dawn and sunrise, and a red and black fire sword associated with sunset parallel the pale white ice moon and the dark fire moon which exploded and gave birth to dragons. I'm combing back over certain parts of the book to get more examples of the 'sun and two moons / king and two wives' pattern, which of course also involves the 'sun king-kills-moon wife' pattern. I'm turning up some pretty great stuff, all the way back in AGOT, which is always nice, because some people don't buy your theory unless you can prove it in the first book. ;)

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