(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Lyanna Stark]

What struck me about the food was that this is a repetition (perhaps with some variation) of a key theme in Daenerys and Jon chapters. Providing food is a basic requirement of a leader, providing food is also linked to ideas around nurturing and judgement (who is going to get to eat), food issues are linked to the defeats of Jon and Daenerys - will the Sansa story line conform to that pattern or break it?

Note here that Littlefinger's policy is not to buy service, loyalty or love by giving away food but to use it as a means of amassing money! There's a lovely scene in the Charton Heston film of El Cid in which he captures Valencia (iirc) by using catapults to lob loaves of bread into a starving city - result everybody loves him. LIttlefinger is planning on taking the opposite course of action.

Yes, very good points! It struck me too that the feast was extravagant, and in fact Randa and Lady Waynwood both comment on the feeding and the presents etc. pointing out that the people there also think it is luxury almost in the extreme. The lemoncake also strikes me as...over the top? :p (no pun, I promise!)

It's a bit strange that LF is hoarding food here, as he could easily buy loyalty from the starving people with bread (King Bread?) but instead he chooses his "silver".

[Colonel Green]

I don't think it makes sense for her to pick Lyn, since he is either (1) posing as Littlefinger's enemy or (2) actually not well-inclined to Littlefinger -- neither of those statuses being commensurate with wearing Littlefinger's bastard daughter's favour at a tourney.

Moreover, it seems like the point of the favour is to make Harry a bit jealous, a task that Corbray doesn't really seem that suited for, for a variety of reasons.

Assuming it's a character we actually know (or that the assigning of the favour is actually significant at all, which it may well not be; it remains to be seen whether we're actually going to see this tourney or if we'll just get any important details recounted later), I would guess it'll be one of the younger Waynwoods introduced in this chapter.

It's a bit strange that LF is hoarding food here, as he could easily buy loyalty from the starving people with bread (King Bread?) but instead he chooses his "silver".

I think it's quite possible that he is planning to use the grain for political purposes down the line, but he obviously isn't going to tell Grafton and Belmore that yet.

[brashcandy]

<snip>

So part of my qualm with HtH possibly becoming Sansa's husband is his un-Starkness (if he were ever to be Lord of Winterfell). His more morally flexible view on "taking responsibility" represents the antithesis to the strict moral code of Robb and Ned (which they didn't always meet, but strived towards) and embodies some of the things about Robert that repulsed Lyanna too. However, a major part of Sansa's tutelage under LF has been learning that sometimes you must be morally flexible to survive to play the game of thrones... So I can't quite make up my mind about HtH as a character and the role he will play in the future. But after one chapter I have found him intriguing enough to write all this up, haha.

Thanks so much for posting, Hours! I was intrigued by your post the moment I read it, and think you've laid out a very good explanation for Martin having Harry's mistress be associated to spices and what it represents in the larger scheme of things for Sansa.

First impressions...

If these are your first impressions, I'm even more excited for when you've had a chance to reread and digest the chapter ;) The tourney is too much to start on, indeed. We've stressed before that the way for Sansa to beat LF (at his own game) is to play on territory that is familiar to her; in other words, to employ her own strengths and strategies rather than seeking to mimic her Machiavellian pseudo-patriarch. Suggesting and organising a tourney could therefore not have been a better way for Martin to highlight how Sansa's unique player skills are coming to the fore, with great potential to undercut the careful influence LF has been trying to build in the Vale. LF's previous track record at tourneys has been uneven. He lost at the one for Ned when he bet on Jaime against Sandor, but seemingly won at the name-day when he capitalises on Sansa's rescue of Dontos to put his plans into motion to get her under his control. At the previous tourneys Sansa is honoured guest and honoured prisoner respectively. Now, though, she has actual agency, no longer is impressed by the easy gallantry of knights, and is a much more thoughtful and deliberate actor.

*continues to muse on your other points*

Yes, very good points! It struck me too that the feast was extravagant, and in fact Randa and Lady Waynwood both comment on the feeding and the presents etc. pointing out that the people there also think it is luxury almost in the extreme. The lemoncake also strikes me as...over the top? :P (no pun, I promise!)

It's a bit strange that LF is hoarding food here, as he could easily buy loyalty from the starving people with bread (King Bread?) but instead he chooses his "silver".

Sansa seems a bit lulled by the extravagance of it all, too, but she knows the value of food from seeing how the Tyrells manipulated it in KL. Thinking of the giant lemoncake being made specially for her is interesting, along with a sugar crusted Eyrie... The phallic symbolism strikes me as twofold in reference to sexuality and power, and Sansa assuming a leadership position in the Vale that allows her to deploy these resources to more ethical ends.

[Colonel Green]

Thanks so much for posting, Hours! I was intrigued by your post the moment I read it, and think you've laid out a very good explanation for Martin having Harry's mistress be associated to spices and what it represents in the larger scheme of things for Sansa.

More prosaically, it's possible he just really wanted that "spice" pun at the end.

[Milady of York]

The feast struck me as very Purple Wedding-ish. I could swear some of those dishes were the same. It also reminds me of the Purple Wedding in that 77 courses while the realm starved was a somewhat problematic message. Withholding food while feasting on this scale is going to invite problems. LF is arranging this Tourney as Lord Protector of the Vale, but his actual chief title is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands whose starvation plight was a primary focus of Jaime's POVs throughout Feast.

What struck me about the food was that this is a repetition (perhaps with some variation) of a key theme in Daenerys and Jon chapters. Providing food is a basic requirement of a leader, providing food is also linked to ideas around nurturing and judgement (who is going to get to eat), food issues are linked to the defeats of Jon and Daenerys - will the Sansa story line conform to that pattern or break it?

Note here that Littlefinger's policy is not to buy service, loyalty or love by giving away food but to use it as a means of amassing money! There's a lovely scene in the Charton Heston film of El Cid in which he captures Valencia (iirc) by using catapults to lob loaves of bread into a starving city - result everybody loves him. LIttlefinger is planning on taking the opposite course of action.

Indeed, to have this feast after a war that's left hordes of starved people homeless and wandering aimlessly spells trouble. Hoarding food to gain power and manipulate the masses and the aristocracy is a very old method, used in Roman times to gain votes and as political coin/weapon. But, for the same reason it's an effective method of negotiation and climbing up the ladder, it's like magic, a double-edged sword that can cut you and horribly so. There's plenty of stories in the old documents telling of how the populace assaulted the state's/the king's/the overlord's granaries during times of starvation and scarcity, when not even the soldiery could stop them or did so at a high cost in blood. In ASOIAF, the King's Landing bread riots are a cautionary tale, and it's curious that Littlefinger wouldn't consider this: he of all people should know the risks, since he's suspected to have had a hand in the riot that erupted when the citizenry learnt of Tyrek's decadent wedding feast, and how someone as politically clueless as Cersei was forced to be "moderate," relatively speaking, for Joff's wedding. Unless he's banking on the Vale's isolation to dodge this bullet and plans to feed "his" people to be safe and let the rest eat cake if they can find some, but it's still a very risky gamble. And I'm wondering too, if he's taken a leaf out of House Tyrell's book and plans to use this food to present himself favourably to those he plans to charm and win to his cause, to be seen as the "saviour" and the source of bread during Winter, with all the PR benefits it brings, seeing how the Highgardeners won the capital over with this trick.

[Colonel Green]

Unless he's banking on the Vale's isolation to dodge this bullet and plans to feed "his" people to be safe and let the rest eat cake if they can find some, but it's still a very risky gamble.

That's exactly it, I think. Grafton and Belmore are talking about selling grain to outside vendors (hence, "post guards at the docks", etc.), not about withholding food within the Vale itself. There's no indication that anybody within the Vale is going to be going hungry.

I've never been entirely clear about how the economics of Westerosi agriculture work around winter. A lord could ordinarily roughly estimate the needs in their own fiefs, but with the seasons being irregular, how to do they predict how long they need to plan for, which would be necessary to determine how much of what's stored is surplus to requirements?

Edit: Wow, it still feels so weird to have something new to talk about with regard to this character.

[Ragnorak]

What is the timeline here? This seems pre-Winter so Aegon landing and Kevan and Pycelle being dead doesn't seem to have happened yet. Cersei is thought of as a dwarf killer but not a prisoner of the Faith. That may be because Sansa's thoughts are of her own ability to marry and not really of Cersei. The "lathered horse" makes me think some news of import has arrived. Cersei's imprisonment perhaps? Oswell would certainly be in a rush after learning the High Septon is playing the Tickler with his son.

Lyn strikes me as an interesting candidate for the reason you mentioned (he is probably the most skilled fighter), but also because he doesn't care about causing insult to Harry and Anya Waynwood or Bronze Yohn Royce by beating Harry. Further, he is strongly motivated by money and even if Sansa is not a highborn lady anymore, carrying her favour would be a point of pride, and Lyn is a proud man. Sansa also thinks that he is a dangerous man, Lyn, and that she doesn't know if he is Littlefinger's any more. Perhaps there is room there for her to at leat temporarily sway his loyalties. I suppose it depends on what Corbray thinks of Harry as well, but if he is not well disposed against Harry he might relish the chance to one up him.

Lyn would also be the purely political choice. He is known, to use Myranda's phrasing, to be more fond of sausage. His carrying her favor would carry all of the political benefit yet no actual romantic jealousy or threat to the betrothal. The offense would be to Harry's pride and likely publicly perceived as her responding to his insult at the gate, but no one is likely to perceive Lyn as a member of a love triangle as other choices could be.

Lyn is also the candidate most likely to not care about losing to Harry for show. Aside from fulfilling her And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt wish, Lyn as a choice might be the best way to ensure Harry does not earn a place amongst the winged knights. (I'm assuming that it is expected that Harry must challenge whomever has his betrothed's favor.) His winning a place seems to be important to getting him to stay at the Gates of the Moon and not returning with the Waynwoods. So Sansa's favor here is of no small significance. It alone could help expel Harry the Heir after the Tourney.

Embracing the Elder Brother crackpot theory would also make for some fun speculation as a token bearer but nothing that strikes me as grounded in the text comes to mind. The other candidates that strike me as potentially plot shaking are the ones who might know Alayne is Sansa. The three hedge knights come to mind and they would also be candidates to not care about losing to Harry for show.

What struck me about the food was that this is a repetition (perhaps with some variation) of a key theme in Daenerys and Jon chapters. Providing food is a basic requirement of a leader, providing food is also linked to ideas around nurturing and judgement (who is going to get to eat), food issues are linked to the defeats of Jon and Daenerys - will the Sansa story line conform to that pattern or break it?

Note here that Littlefinger's policy is not to buy service, loyalty or love by giving away food but to use it as a means of amassing money! There's a lovely scene in the Charton Heston film of El Cid in which he captures Valencia (iirc) by using catapults to lob loaves of bread into a starving city - result everybody loves him. LIttlefinger is planning on taking the opposite course of action.

I liked the winged helmets - surely they will be loyal to Sansa. Littlefinger isn't paying attention to details as we see in this chapter and Sweetrobin might provoke pity but can hardly inspire loyalty.

I love GRRM's solution to the tapestry mystery, so much speculation brought to nout :crying: :laugh:

I imagine this chapter will be revised - the two uses of "fled" really stood out to me

Yes the food dynamic is intriguing. It seems his years as Master of Coin have left him believing the merchant is the winner in the Varys riddle-- a peculiar position for a man planning to play the Lannisters and one bound for disappointment when news of the Iron Bank and Stannis arrives in the Vale.

Again I'm struck by the impending starvation in the Riverlands that Littlefinger supposedly leads. What are Riverlands lords going to think about their own Lord Paramount living in the Vale and using armed troops to stop the export of food to them? Sure in the long term LF's play may work out, but he needs to survive the short term. Big Bucket Wull might not be the only man who thinks dying in battle is better than starving in Winter and a 64 course feast is like painting a bull's-eye on the Vale. How is Bronze Yohn's willingness to defy that order going to play out? When Aegon lands, and then Dany lands, and the fertilizer meets the fan I'm not sure those granaries will remain undisturbed long enough to turn to gold.

It is a curious choice to compare to Dany and Jon. My evil self would wait until Winter manifests itself and grain is more valuable than gold and then buy with grain what people would never give up for gold and be loved for it. LF can afford to be Edmure Tully and feed the smallfolk behind the mountain walls of the Vale, but that isn't his plan. He could mimic the Tyrells in Kings Lading and use food to sway favor toward himself. What seems furthest from his mind is any concern about a leader's responsibility to provide for his people. He thinks a Royce with empty granaries ceases to be trade competition and not a starving lord with an army. Granted he is talking to a merchant here so maybe these are his arguments to a man who traffics in gold and silver and not LF's actual plans.

Worth reflecting on:

Littlefinger turned away. “Boy, are you fond of potted hare?” he asked Podrick Payne.
Pod stared at the visitor’s boots, lovely things of red-dyed leather ornamented with black scrollwork. “To eat, my lord?”
“Invest in pots,” Littlefinger advised. “Hares will soon overrun the castle. We’ll be eating hare thrice a day.”
“Better than rats on a skewer,” said Tyrion. “Pod, leave us. Unless Lord Petyr would care for some refreshment?”

[Colonel Green]

What is the timeline here? This seems pre-Winter so Aegon landing and Kevan and Pycelle being dead doesn't seem to have happened yet. Cersei is thought of as a dwarf killer but not a prisoner of the Faith. That may be because Sansa's thoughts are of her own ability to marry and not really of Cersei. The "lathered horse" makes me think some news of import has arrived. Cersei's imprisonment perhaps? Oswell would certainly be in a rush after learning the High Septon is playing the Tickler with his son.

The last three books have really mucked up the timeline, in a lot of ways. The Greyjoy parts of AFFC started during ASOS, as did Brienne's; then you have ADWD outstripping AFFC by a while in the chronology, and several characters' chapters being removed from ADWD and shunted into TWOW, this chapter included. Given that this chapter was supposed to come before the epilogue originally, and has probably not been extensively revised, I'm not sure whether we're meant to think this is still occurring before the the epilogue, or if the Vale just mistakenly cancelled its Westerosi World News subscription and isn't getting the latest news reports.

[brashcandy]

Lyn is also the candidate most likely to not care about losing to Harry for show. Aside from fulfilling her And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt wish, Lyn as a choice might be the best way to ensure Harry does not earn a place amongst the winged knights. (I'm assuming that it is expected that Harry must challenge whomever has his betrothed's favor.) His winning a place seems to be important to getting him to stay at the Gates of the Moon and not returning with the Waynwoods. So Sansa's favor here is of no small significance. It alone could help expel Harry the Heir after the Tourney.

LF unconsciously repeating the circumstances of his humiliation over Cat when he challenged Brandon Stark for her hand might offer a provocative parallel with HtH and is suggestive of him "sowing the seeds" of his own demise, to use a food related, if cliched, metaphor :P LF's skills were practically nonexistent (Harry may at least be competent), and Cat, only seeing him as a brother, withheld her favour. To win his new Cat, LF has been acting in the role of "Lord Stark" - Sansa's father (Ned) and successful suitor (Ned/Brandon). However, in order to fully triumph, he needs Sansa to at first accept Harry, who's acting as his proxy in the trio. Perhaps then we'll see his advice to Sansa of not giving Harry her favour backfire spectacularly.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyn would also be the purely political choice. He is known, to use Myranda's phrasing, to be more fond of sausage. His carrying her favor would carry all of the political benefit yet no actual romantic jealousy or threat to the betrothal. The offense would be to Harry's pride and likely publicly perceived as her responding to his insult at the gate, but no one is likely to perceive Lyn as a member of a love triangle as other choices could be.

Lyn is also the candidate most likely to not care about losing to Harry for show. Aside from fulfilling her And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt wish, Lyn as a choice might be the best way to ensure Harry does not earn a place amongst the winged knights. (I'm assuming that it is expected that Harry must challenge whomever has his betrothed's favor.) His winning a place seems to be important to getting him to stay at the Gates of the Moon and not returning with the Waynwoods. So Sansa's favor here is of no small significance. It alone could help expel Harry the Heir after the Tourney.

Yes, absolutely. I think you got across my thoughts on this better than I did. :) The main point from Sansa's point of view is that through Lyn, she could injure Harry's pride without anyone actually seriously thinking that Corbray was actually a true competitor for her favour. Your point about this potentially removing Harry from the Gates of the Moon is brilliant, as he wouldn't get a spot among the winged knights then. I suppose it may depend on how Sansa evaluates her choices in her future chapters, but it seemed odd to me that we get a front seat view of Lyn's fighting prowess for no apparent reason, and Sansa's thoughts that he is a dangerous man, plus one with uncertain allegiances. LF tends to think everything can be bought with money, and especially so in Lyn's case, but we also see that this is not true. Corbray is not happy about being demoted to a spot further down the line so clearly, an inheritance and perhaps a title mattered more to him than money and a ready supply of underage boys.

Regarding Lyn vs the Waynwoods as carriers of the favour, they would probably be more known entities to Harry as well, since they travelled together and knew each other since before. Losing to one of them would perhaps be more like losing to a sparring partner. Further, they may not even try to do it, since Anya Waynwood probably wouldn't want them to embarrass Harry. Lyn Corbray would, as you say, have no such compunction.

LF unconsciously repeating the circumstances of his humiliation over Cat when he challenged Brandon Stark for her hand might offer a provocative parallel with HtH and is suggestive of him "sowing the seeds" of his own demise, to use a food related, if cliched, metaphor :P LF's skills were practically nonexistent (Harry may at least be competent), and Cat, only seeing him as a brother, withheld her favour. To win his new Cat, LF has been acting in the role of "Lord Stark" - Sansa's father (Ned) and successful suitor (Ned/Brandon). However, in order to fully triumph, he needs Sansa to at first accept Harry, who's acting as his proxy in the trio. Perhaps then we'll see his advice to Sansa of not giving Harry her favour backfire spectacularly.

Yes, these are great points. If Sansa somehow manages to humiliate Harry through her proxy, then she will take Cat's old role while Harry will take on LF's role of Failure.

In general I found Sansa's reasoning around Lyn Corbray to be fascinating. Instead of just basing her conclusions on other people talking to each other (the sort of passive "nobody pays any attention to the fool" stuff Dontos talks about in ACOK) she now pokes and prods people to see how they'll react. She does this both with Lyn and with Harry, and both produce results as well. Another thing that stood out as well is that unlike in Kings Landing, she is not afraid of doing this poking and prodding. Even someone like Lyn she actually did prod, and he is generally regarded as not the type to mess with.

[brashcandy]

Yes, these are great points. If Sansa somehow manages to humiliate Harry through her proxy, then she will take Cat's old role while Harry will take on LF's role of Failure.

In general I found Sansa's reasoning around Lyn Corbray to be fascinating. Instead of just basing her conclusions on other people talking to each other (the sort of passive "nobody pays any attention to the fool" stuff Dontos talks about in ACOK) she now pokes and prods people to see how they'll react. She does this both with Lyn and with Harry, and both produce results as well. Another thing that stood out as well is that unlike in Kings Landing, she is not afraid of doing this poking and prodding. Even someone like Lyn she actually did prod, and he is generally regarded as not the type to mess with.

Salient point. Of interest to me with her potentially giving her favour to Lyn is how it would serve as an inverse (and perverse) parallel to what happened at the Hand's tourney, when Loras bestowed what she thought was special "favour" by giving her the red rose, when in reality it was just more Tyrell showmanship . It fits also with what you say now is Sansa's more pointed tactics -- perhaps symbolised by gaining a knight's weapon in a lemoncake lance :)

[zeppelincheetah]

I just read it and it gave me a headache. I hate reading vale chapters when there are so many people I am not used to reading. It does look like proof, however subtle, that she may soon become a player. It isnt this huge transformation that everyone is anticipating (to me that would be unrealistic) but it is a start. I think she will still be clumsy in her attempts at being a player for some time. I think she is in for a rude awakening with Harry. I predict he feigns being played and turns it back around on her.

[Ragnorak]

The last three books have really mucked up the timeline, in a lot of ways. The Greyjoy parts of AFFC started during ASOS, as did Brienne's; then you have ADWD outstripping AFFC by a while in the chronology, and several characters' chapters being removed from ADWD and shunted into TWOW, this chapter included. Given that this chapter was supposed to come before the epilogue originally, and has probably not been extensively revised, I'm not sure whether we're meant to think this is still occurring before the the epilogue, or if the Vale just mistakenly cancelled its Westerosi World News subscription and isn't getting the latest news reports.

I didn't catch anything specific to use as a reference. It says "below the mountain autumn lingered" and the epilogue has the white raven signaling the start winter so this has to be before that. I'd guess this is Oswell hearing his son was imprisoned at the latest, but that's still mostly guesswork. Cersei being imprisoned seems like it should be huge news and I'm not certain if the tapestries would be that great a gift if Cersei's trial is going to put Tommen's legitimacy into question. They're Robert's and no one questions his status as king, but still not the greatest status symbol if the Faith militant is about to decide the fate of Robert's line.

LF unconsciously repeating the circumstances of his humiliation over Cat when he challenged Brandon Stark for her hand might offer a provocative parallel with HtH and is suggestive of him "sowing the seeds" of his own demise, to use a food related, if cliched, metaphor :P LF's skills were practically nonexistent (Harry may at least be competent), and Cat, only seeing him as a brother, withheld her favour. To win his new Cat, LF has been acting in the role of "Lord Stark" - Sansa's father (Ned) and successful suitor (Ned/Brandon). However, in order to fully triumph, he needs Sansa to at first accept Harry, who's acting as his proxy in the trio. Perhaps then we'll see his advice to Sansa of not giving Harry her favour backfire spectacularly.

I really like this.

I also have this notion that unCat parallels the story of Alyssa's Tears. That isn't exactly hard to spot, but Tyrion's trial by combat in the Vale has Alyssa's statue prominently displayed as a centerpiece of the combat. Cat's POV detours into the Brandon/LF duel right before her memory is interrupted by Bronn hiding behind Alyssa's statue and Ser Vargas striking sparks off the statue's thigh in an attempt to hit him. A parallel to that first duel has a great deal of symbolism and foreshadowing potential. I'd have to ponder more to see if other Cat parallels emerge.

The Ned parallels are fairly obvious. A man with a daughter betrothed to the heir in pit of vipers scheming for control distracted by the planning of an extravagant tourney seems like a story we've read already.

Yes, absolutely. I think you got across my thoughts on this better than I did. :) The main point from Sansa's point of view is that through Lyn, she could injure Harry's pride without anyone actually seriously thinking that Corbray was actually a true competitor for her favour. Your point about this potentially removing Harry from the Gates of the Moon is brilliant, as he wouldn't get a spot among the winged knights then. I suppose it may depend on how Sansa evaluates her choices in her future chapters, but it seemed odd to me that we get a front seat view of Lyn's fighting prowess for no apparent reason, and Sansa's thoughts that he is a dangerous man, plus one with uncertain allegiances. LF tends to think everything can be bought with money, and especially so in Lyn's case, but we also see that this is not true. Corbray is not happy about being demoted to a spot further down the line so clearly, an inheritance and perhaps a title mattered more to him than money and a ready supply of underage boys.

Regarding Lyn vs the Waynwoods as carriers of the favour, they would probably be more known entities to Harry as well, since they travelled together and knew each other since before. Losing to one of them would perhaps be more like losing to a sparring partner. Further, they may not even try to do it, since Anya Waynwood probably wouldn't want them to embarrass Harry. Lyn Corbray would, as you say, have no such compunction.

The token of favor intrigues me as this Tourney potentially has elements that can draw from multiple others. LF is plotting with a secret heir which recalls The Mystery Knight. There's potential for some Lyanna parallels with the Tournament at Harrenhal in the False Spring or the Hand's Tourney as Brash points out.. Lots of ways this can go.

What do you make of the Harry/Joffrey comparison? Sansa directly compares the two in her thoughts, but the quartered arms on his shield recall Jon pointing out Joffrey's shield back in GoT. There's seems to be a bit of intent there on Martin's part.

[Milady of York]

I've never been entirely clear about how the economics of Westerosi agriculture work around winter. A lord could ordinarily roughly estimate the needs in their own fiefs, but with the seasons being irregular, how to do they predict how long they need to plan for, which would be necessary to determine how much of what's stored is surplus to requirements?

Edit: Wow, it still feels so weird to have something new to talk about with regard to this character.

Neither have I, despite attempts at forming a reasonable guess about how this works that I've made across the years, but even my best ones would look funny upon utterance of one word: "dragons." Meaning, in a world with these beasts and these weird seasons, any explanations would have to include suspension of disbelief. Otherwise, how else are we to understand that plants, animals and people can survive with long summers and long winters? There are plants that are seasonal and don't bloom outside their set time, for example, so there must be some genetic adaptation either naturally or human-induced mutations through farming practices, as well as different forms of farming and cultivation that we're not yet aware of because Martin didn't write it. The Winterfell Glass Gardens would give us an indication of how they cope with seasonal farming, as those aren't "gardens" as a giant farm where they can cultivate during the winter, which can also serve for other seasons as the climate can be regulated to convenience. Yet, we don't know which other castles have something alike and how the overall agricultural system has adapted to the weird seasons.

But back to your point on how the lords might estimate their food supplies, if I were to have a try, my best supposition is drawn from historical practices, that they could do the way it was done in past epochs: the tithe-like system. That is, regardless of how abundant or how poor the year's harvests were, a determined portion of it had to go to the granaries, like for example X percent of the wheat, X percent of the fruit, X percent of the slaughtered cattle, etc. And depending on the overall production, they could have a surplus that they'd either sell or store too, and if they didn't have much, then they at least could ration what they had and survive on the stored portions, if they couldn't buy more. This was because, even though they didn't have ice zombies, dragons and irregular seasons to deal with, they were still at the mercy of Mother Nature (drought, floods, plagues, earthquakes, wildfires...) and Man (war, raids) and didn't have the technology modern agriculture enjoys, so they had to foresee in advance, to hoard the nuts for the winter and the lean cows times. The portions were estimated in fixed bushels of grain per family, and to help in this the lord's bailiffs had to keep track of the peasantry and free citizenry living in the dominions to be able to know what quantities exactly they'd need in the granaries each year. Some granaries could be gargantuan in size; for instance the Romans had state warehouses, and a public office to take care of it, which could store sufficient grain for the million-odd population of their capital for near a decade provided a good administration was in place, and some of the largest could contain enough tons of wheat to last four years or so; this could perhaps give us at least a rough idea of how much large granaries could store in the Vale and for how many people. We're not told how large the granaries in the Vale are, but if they're big enough, and if Royce has one of those plus sufficient supplies, he might not run out of stuff so soon as to need to resort to Littlefinger like he seems to be hoping. Littlefinger is thinking way too long-term here if it's indeed his plan, because it requires time that he may very well not have, with so many factors that could spoil his plans.

[Ser Creighton]

Welcome to the thread, Mochimomo!

I can't speak all that well to the Jorah comparison (woefully in need of a Dany reread), but I've always found Lothor to have the most compelling similarities with the Hound. Bronn I would rule out since his working for Tyrion is motivated for mercenary reasons first and foremost, and I never got a sense of that from Lothor's association with LF. As you point out, we've seen him from the Hand's tourney onwards, and he shows a serious approach to competition, most notably in contrast to Dontos at the name-day tourney, and later on fights honourably at Blackwater. Brune appears to be fairly simple man, trying to earn a living and advance himself by the only options available to him, but Sansa can uncover hidden layers under just about anyone :)

Thank you!! We're happy to be back and able to share this chapter with everyone, new and old.

Yeah of course the Hound but I see Sansa and the hound as having a more complex relationship. In terms of Bronn I was using the fundimental comparison of how they climbed and the relationship Bronn has with Tyrion also finding the name similar, a Sell Sword and a Free Rider that both climbed to landed Knights.

Jorah was a bit more complex, I was focusing on symbolism. Jorah of course like Bronn and the Hound is a Sworn Sword or was we see the hound abandon Joff and we see Jorah sent away from Dany. But where I really made the connection was the name. Mormont of course is a Bear of Bear island and his sigil is a Brown bear. Lothor says he is of house Brune, their sigil is a Brown Bear paw. The name Brune itself is an old german nickname that means brown, it is also the root of Bruin, which means Brown bear. Jorah of course worked for Varys and Varys and Littlefinger draw a lot of parallels. So both have little birds and Brown Bears so to speak, but the Bear may not be as loyal to LF as he thinks, just as Jorah was not as loyal to Varys as he thought.

I would not say on a personal or personality level that Bronn, Jorah, Sandor, and Lothor are the same as eachother, but rather they have these sort of fundimental roles to play in a POV's story. They are very skilled tough men and all that, but they sort of fill this fundamental or symbolic role. They are all sort of outcasts, all deeper than they appear, they are all sworn swords, and all more honest and loyal that you might think, they all have there secrets etc...

[DogLover]

I finally had an opportunity to reread the chapter, which I enjoyed much more on the second read (since I actually savored it), but still think it needs a lot of polishing. First, I agree with Lady Gwyn that Myranda suspects Sansa is not Littlefinger's daughter. Asking Sansa how little Littlefinger's finger is is extraordinarily crass, and even someone who loves to indulge in "pillow talk" as Myranda wouldn't ask such a question of someone's actual offspring. She's practically insinuating that they're lovers. And considering she's actually jealous of Sansa's possible betrothal to HtH (that threw me for a loop), I wouldn't be surprised if this causes friction in their friendship.

And then there's the Mad Mouse. When he made the "bag of dragons" comment, I had the mental image that he was looking at Sansa as if she were a bag of money straight out of a cartoon. Coming on the heels of Sansa's provoking Lyn Corbray, who is "always short of coin," I can't help but expect a collaboration between the two, with the Mad Mouse meeting a similar end to Dontos.

Despite the looming trouble, I am happy that Sansa actually has agency and is figuratively writing her own Winged Knights story, which I believe bodes well for her. I'm also relieved that she has retained her identity as a Stark, thinking fondly of her family and Winterfell, as well as always referring to Littlefinger as Petyr in her thoughts rather than "father" as she does outwardly.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for clarifying, Ser Creighton, I find the bear symbolism and their relation to the central game players to be quite intriguing. A version of "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" playing out to Sansa's benefit in the Mya/Lothor relationship would be an ironic strike against "life is not a song" LF.

We're not told how large the granaries in the Vale are, but if they're big enough, and if Royce has one of those plus sufficient supplies, he might not run out of stuff so soon as to need to resort to Littlefinger like he seems to be hoping. Littlefinger is thinking way too long-term here if it's indeed his plan, because it requires time that he may very well not have, with so many factors that could spoil his plans.

Indeed... One of the major changes in tone from this chapter and Sansa's last one in AFFC is that there seemed to be a greater sense of urgency on LF's part when he disclosed his plans to Sansa. Now he's appears to be settling in for the winter, and taking too many things as a given.

Despite the looming trouble, I am happy that Sansa actually has agency and is figuratively writing her own Winged Knights story, which I believe bodes well for her. I'm also relieved that she has retained her identity as a Stark, thinking fondly of her family and Winterfell, as well as always referring to Littlefinger as Petyr in her thoughts rather than "father" as she does outwardly.

And she even indicates in her thoughts when he shifts from Petyr to Littlefinger during their conversation in the vaults. Having the chapter open with her reading a story from the Winged knight to SR was a nice nod to their last adventure in crossing the narrow strip on the descent from the Eyrie, and it's wonderful that the theme continues to resonate so strongly in Sansa's story.

[XSarellaX]

When I read her conversation with Harry at the dance, I immediately remembered all those people who said Arya and Sansa were two sides of Lyanna. I never fully believed in that, until now. I wonder what her first conversation with Robert was like :)

Lemmons in the books seem to symbolize innocence, summer, etc. Could the giant lemmoncake represent the end of summer and peace to the Vale? One last celebration with lots of food and gifts and dreams of glory before LF's plans bring turmoil to everyone?

It's interesting how confortable Sansa is in using her bastard identity as a protection (she rejects sweetrobin very naturally and skillfully), only to be embarassed by it later.

She also seems to trust LF, but at one point she notes that some of his smiles dont reach his eyes, and then refers to him as Littlefinger. Its as if she dissociates Petyr from LF..

I really, really like how much she's grown. Sansa was never my favorite, but if she keeps on being smart and perceptive like that, I will warm up to her pretty soon. I mean, she's probably one of the least screwed up characters in the series right now. :P

[Colonel Green]

It's interesting how confortable Sansa is in using her bastard identity as a protection (she rejects sweetrobin very naturally and skillfully), only to be embarassed by it later.

I was a little surprised by how genuinely hopeful she initially was at seeing him, and how hurt she was by his rejection. I guess we should be glad she can still feel that way, rather than having all emotion beaten out of her.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Whoa. So this is where you lot ran off to. Hej there!

I finally had an opportunity to reread the chapter, which I enjoyed much more on the second read (since I actually savored it), but still think it needs a lot of polishing. First, I agree with Lady Gwyn that Myranda suspects Sansa is not Littlefinger's daughter. Asking Sansa how little Littlefinger's finger is is extraordinarily crass, and even someone who loves to indulge in "pillow talk" as Myranda wouldn't ask such a question of someone's actual offspring. She's practically insinuating that they're lovers. And considering she's actually jealous of Sansa's possible betrothal to HtH (that threw me for a loop), I wouldn't be surprised if this causes friction in their friendship.

And then there's the Mad Mouse. When he made the "bag of dragons" comment, I had the mental image that he was looking at Sansa as if she were a bag of money straight out of a cartoon. Coming on the heels of Sansa's provoking Lyn Corbray, who is "always short of coin," I can't help but expect a collaboration between the two, with the Mad Mouse meeting a similar end to Dontos.

Despite the looming trouble, I am happy that Sansa actually has agency and is figuratively writing her own Winged Knights story, which I believe bodes well for her. I'm also relieved that she has retained her identity as a Stark, thinking fondly of her family and Winterfell, as well as always referring to Littlefinger as Petyr in her thoughts rather than "father" as she does outwardly.

About Myranda, yeah i got that impression. Myranda is just plain thirsty so its not too much for her to be so crass. Sansa seems to sorta brush it off as if it were usual Randa behavior. But yeah, i think she does suspect something funky going on with Sansa and Littlefinger. (i laughed really hard at that joke though)

Sansa has really learned how to manipulate and gain control of a situation without looking like shes in control of the situation. Thats awesome if you ask me. Her reaction to Harry was wonderful and delightful to read. Her going to Littlefinger about and he instructing her to play the fiddle, so to speak, was interesting. And then she does. She plays that fiddle and played it well. Her snark was skillful. "The bastard's courage". Notbad.gif Seems Sansa is ready to mess with heads. I wonder if she'll pick Uther Shett for the favor just for the shiggles.