Jon snows death

[Amris]

Jon's stabbing scene with the preceding fight between Wun-Wun and Ser Patrek always reminds me of Dany's Daznak's pit scene with the preceding fight between the monstrous boar and the pitfighter.

In both cases the smouldering conflict between the old order and the new order so to speak finally breaks loose, bringing with it open confrontation and an assassination attempt (blades for Jon, poison in Dany's case).

If Jon's arc goes as Dany's does it stands to reason that the scene will be resolved by Jon not being out of the story completely but leaving for a time, possibly wandering alone while going through some kind of personality - ah - sortout.

That would actually fit pretty well with the Ghost-warging theory.

I don't know if there needs to be a dragon in Jon's scene too - but the old crackpot idea of Mel summoning a shadow dragon is always there. Jon's blood is King's blood after all. Given Mel's shadow-affinity I think it more likely she'll use the opportunity to summon something than that she'll suddenly pull a Thoros when she's never done that before.

In Dany's arc the resulting confusion and Dany's leaving finally led to the 'new order' (slave side led by Barry) pushing the old order - and political compromise - aside.

If the same happens in Jon's arc one would assume the Wildlings taking over and pushing the Night's Watch aside. Or at least the conservative members of the Night's Watch being arrested. Not an unlikely scenario IMO.

[Green Hereseer]

GRRM told us exactly what's about to happen to John after his stabbing:

The ADwD prologue is a preview of Jon Snow's "Death".

Why else put in Varamyr's experiences being pushed out of his eagle, out of the woman Thistle, and eventually back into one of his wolves? All that backstory... it's laying out the rules of skinchangers being kicked out of their bodies.

GRRM doesn't fuck around, but he is a seriously sneaky writer. He put that at the opposite end of the book so it wouldn't be top of mind, but that we'd know how these things work.

[bemused]

Green Hereseer.. That's far too easy, for GRRM, IMO.

The Varamyr prologue contains a wealth of information, alright, but it there are lots of bits that could be misleading as well.

Do you think that Varamyr could have taken Ghost, for example ? I don't. What about the difference between Thistle and Hodor's reaction to being warged. Is the difference that Hodor is simple-minded ?(and is he?) Is it possible that trust has something to do with it ? Aren't we tempted to wonder ..what if someone wanted to let a skinchanger or greenseer in , for some reason ? How would that change things?

The prologue gives us insight into wildling society.. e.g. Varamyr being fostered or apprenticed with Hagon. Varamyr was a malevolent little cuss, but I can see where this "fostering" would be appropriate for any budding young skinchanger, especially if there were no others in his/her family to act as tutor or guide.

Hagon shows us that skinchangers have a code of ethics, that they gather occasionally to discuss matters among themselves, perhaps introduce new "members" to the group at large, or whatever.. Then later, when Borroq addresses Jon as "brother", what does that mean, to him ? How formal or casual is it ?

The chapter holds implications for Bran, Arya and Rickon, as well as Jon.

And some of what seems obvious could be meant to mislead, to make us buy the very ambiguously written cliffhanger at the end.

[Green Hereseer]

Green Hereseer.. That's far too easy, for GRRM, IMO.

Here's the thing. I think GRRM writes these for "normal" readers, as opposed to writing them for us cork-sniffers. :drool:

Yes, there's loads of depth in there to be discovered and enjoyed on repeated readings, but I really don't think he's above classic forshadowing. He uses it all the time. Loads of POV characters think something like "Well, I'll be okay as long as X doesn't happen." And then 200 pages later, X is exactly what happens. Yes, he does it more artfully than that-- blessed be his initials-- but that's the gist.

What I mean is that something like this, or even R+L=J is only obvious to us because we've been debating it for years. But to a casual reader, it's not cliche or passe. And I doubt GRRM is changing his plan because us forum-dwellers picked up on it.

I think 19 out of 20 readers would not make the connection between the Varamyr prologue and Jon's stabbing on the 1st read of ADwD.

[Amris]

Here's the thing. I think GRRM writes these for "normal" readers, as opposed to writing them for us cork-sniffers. :drool:

Yes, there's loads of depth in there to be discovered and enjoyed on repeated readings, but I really don't think he's above classic forshadowing. He uses it all the time. Loads of POV characters think something like "Well, I'll be okay as long as X doesn't happen." And then 200 pages later, X is exactly what happens. Yes, he does it more artfully than that-- blessed be his initials-- but that's the gist.

What I mean is that something like this, or even R+L=J is only obvious to us because we've been debating it for years. But to a casual reader, it's not cliche or passe. And I doubt GRRM is changing his plan because us forum-dwellers picked up on it.

I think 19 out of 20 readers would not make the connection between the Varamyr prologue and Jon's stabbing on the 1st read of ADwD.

I think just the opposite: I think we are meant to pick up on the Varamir prologue in conjunction with Jon's stabbing.

That's because I am relatively sure GRRM did not want to pull something like a warging resurrection for one of his main heroes out of his hat without giving the reader advanced warning and some sort of explanation beforehand. So that the miraculous survival does not look completely lame.

Otherwise it would have been like: What the hell? Everybody dies but Jon of course does not because he spontaneously develops a new superpower?

[addicted to snow]

What I took away from Varamyr's Prologue::

- Warg/Skinchanging rules/regulations

- Powerful Wargs can take any beast & bend them to their will (just like the Night's King was said to use 'strange sorceries' to bend the Watch to his will - his strange soceries were simply advanced warging abilities).

- Varamyr is the most powerful of all known Wargs.

- Varamyr could see through the eyes of all his wolves simultaneously.

- All of Varamyr's Warging knowledge comes from Haggon or firsthand experience.

- Haggon was weak, afraid of his own talents, unwilling to explore his own gifts... & therefore is an unreliable source regarding the advanced warging topics...

- When Wargs die, they begin a 2nd life in one of their beast.

- Varamyr THOUGHT that he would loose his talents in his 2nd life, where you slowly fade away into the beast.

- Varamyr does not want to fade away & he is powerful... if a loophole can be found, he will find it...

- GRRM offered far too much backstory on Varamyr for Varamyr's role in the story to be over.

- & yes, GRRM was showing us, firsthand what would happen to Jon Snow later... Jon was stabbed, his body died, & he started his 2nd life inside of ghost... Though I have a feeling that Jon's body will be brought back to life, thus ending Jon's 2nd Life & having him revert back to his 1st life... GRRm has done such a through job building up the Ice Cells to be a central plot device in the coming book(s), I believe that Jon's body will be revived, yet be in the same state that Khal Drogo's revived body was in, & be thrown in the ice cells to freeze solid & be forgotten about... Jon will take Hodor as his primary skin...

[addicted to snow]

I think just the opposite: I think we are meant to pick up on the Varamir prologue in conjunction with Jon's stabbing.

That's because I am relatively sure GRRM did not want to pull something like a warging resurrection for one of his main heroes out of his hat without giving the reader advanced warning and some sort of explanation beforehand. So that the miraculous survival does not look completely lame.

Otherwise it would have been like: What the hell? Everybody dies but Jon of course does not because he spontaneously develops a new superpower?

Jon is not the one of GRRM's "main heroes"... Jon is the Night's King... It is Known...

[addicted to snow]

That was my first thought, actually.

Really, we don't know what's happened to Jon. We can only be sure that he was stabbed once. Otherwise, Jon is completely unreliable in knowing what's happening to him. We know that Wick's knife only grazed his neck, and that Bowen's knife stabbed him in the stomach. We know that the third knife 'took' him in the back (which doesn't necessarily mean he was actually stabbed with it), and we don't know what happened with the fourth knife at all.

Basically, Martin made this so ambiguous that Jon could be anywhere from 'wounded but okay' to 'dead'. Personally, I think that if Martin just wanted to kill him off for good, he would have given Jon some inarguably mortal wounds. Otherwise, it's clear that Jon is coming back somehow.

People who get stabbed in the stomach in ASOIAF or in Medieval Times do not survive...

John Didn't feel the 4th Knife, all he felt was the cold... This is exactly what Varamyr experienced at the time of his true death in the ADWDs Prologue... We see when Kevan dies that he too feel cold only this time it is from blood-loss, low blood pressure, shock. In his case we learn that if the character can feel the temperature (the cold) then he should also be able to feel the 4th knife - Unless he first life has ended & 2nd life is starting...

[Amris]

What I took away from Varamyr's Prologue::

- Warg/Skinchanging rules/regulations

- Powerful Wargs can take any beast & bend them to their will (just like the Night's King was said to use 'strange sorceries' to bend the Watch to his will - his strange soceries were simply advanced warging abilities).

- Varamyr is the most powerful of all known Wargs.

- Varamyr could see through the eyes of all his wolves simultaneously.

- All of Varamyr's Warging knowledge comes from Haggon or firsthand experience.

- Haggon was weak, afraid of his own talents, unwilling to explore his own gifts... & therefore is an unreliable source regarding the advanced warging topics...

- When Wargs die, they begin a 2nd life in one of their beast.

- Varamyr THOUGHT that he would loose his talents in his 2nd life, where you slowly fade away into the beast.

- Varamyr does not want to fade away & he is powerful... if a loophole can be found, he will find it...

- GRRM offered far too much backstory on Varamyr for Varamyr's role in the story to be over.

- & yes, GRRM was showing us, firsthand what would happen to Jon Snow later... Jon was stabbed, his body died, & he started his 2nd life inside of ghost... Though I have a feeling that Jon's body will be brought back to life, thus ending Jon's 2nd Life & having him revert back to his 1st life... GRRm has done such a through job building up the Ice Cells to be a central plot device in the coming book(s), I believe that Jon's body will be revived, yet be in the same state that Khal Drogo's revived body was in, & be thrown in the ice cells to freeze solid & be forgotten about... Jon will take Hodor as his primary skin...

Absolutely. I think the same about the ice cells that you do.

[Lord BitterRaven]

Jon was already about to ride south to take part in another conflict; then he got stabbed. The Wall needs more people, not less.

Has it occurred to you guys that maybe he simply survived the attack? Approximately 0.4 seconds after Jon blacked out, I assure you that Tormund's wildlings rioted and seized control of Castle Black. Jon is practically the new King Beyond the Wall, after all.

I don't think that the Wildlings will stop at Castle Black. In fact, I don't think that there will be hardly anyone left in the watch before the day is through. Jon was the only thing keeping peace between the two groups, so shit's going to get chaotic before Jon's body goes cold and word and violence will travel through each castle along the wall until Eastewatch and Shadow Tower fall.

[sj4iy]

People who get stabbed in the stomach in ASOIAF or in Medieval Times do not survive...

Oh? And just how many people have been stabbed in the stomach in this book, exactly? For comparison's sake, how many people in the story walk into a massive fire, stayed there overnight and survived?

Also, bringing up 'medieval times' is irrelevant. This isn't a historical novel.

John Didn't feel the 4th Knife, all he felt was the cold... This is exactly what Varamyr experienced at the time of his true death in the ADWDs Prologue... We see when Kevan dies that he too feel cold only this time it is from blood-loss, low blood pressure, shock. In his case we learn that if the character can feel the temperature (the cold) then he should also be able to feel the 4th knife - Unless he first life has ended & 2nd life is starting...

DEAD people don't feel 'cold'. DYING people feel cold. There's a difference. Neither Varamyr, Kevan or Robert were DEAD when they felt cold.

And as I said above, he may never have felt the fourth knife because it never stabbed him.

[Valyrian Blade]

Sadly D&D spoiled that Jon is warging into Ghost.

[sj4iy]

Sadly D&D spoiled that Jon is warging into Ghost.

How is that a spoiler when we know he can do it in the books and the last thing Jon says is "Ghost"?

[Lord BitterRaven]

Sadly D&D spoiled that Jon is warging into Ghost.

So it's been confirmed? What did they say?

[Green Hereseer]

I think just the opposite: I think we are meant to pick up on the Varamir prologue in conjunction with Jon's stabbing.

That's because I am relatively sure GRRM did not want to pull something like a warging resurrection for one of his main heroes out of his hat without giving the reader advanced warning and some sort of explanation beforehand. So that the miraculous survival does not look completely lame.

Otherwise it would have been like: What the hell? Everybody dies but Jon of course does not because he spontaneously develops a new superpower?

I think you and I are actually on the same page here. I only meant that he book-ended the book with them so the Varamyr thing wouldn't be top of mind, but that it would still have set a precident.

Jon's definitely going into Ghost, but I don't know if he's returning to his original body. I think so, maybe with help from Melissandre.

I DO think that the people talking about him wargin Hodor are in tinfoil-hat territory. The whole Bran-warging-Hodor thing is about something else entirely in my opinion. That's showing Bran breaking with conventional morality ("Abomination!") in preparation for him leading the forces of Cold. (Yes, I know this is my own tinfoil-hat theory.)

[addicted to snow]

How is that a spoiler when we know he can do it in the books and the last thing Jon says is "Ghost"?

Please try & maintain a little dignity & present a consistent argument... You know that on the previous page of this thread you were arguing that Jon Snow is still alive... Now you are saying that it is not a spoiler that Jon Snow is dead & has warged into Ghost...

However, I do appreciate you flipping sides & supporting my conclusion, I guess I presented a convincing argument...

[bemused]

Here's the thing. I think GRRM writes these for "normal" readers, as opposed to writing them for us cork-sniffers. :drool:

Yes, there's loads of depth in there to be discovered and enjoyed on repeated readings, but I really don't think he's above classic forshadowing. He uses it all the time. Loads of POV characters think something like "Well, I'll be okay as long as X doesn't happen." And then 200 pages later, X is exactly what happens. Yes, he does it more artfully than that-- blessed be his initials-- but that's the gist.

What I mean is that something like this, or even R+L=J is only obvious to us because we've been debating it for years. But to a casual reader, it's not cliche or passe. And I doubt GRRM is changing his plan because us forum-dwellers picked up on it.

I think 19 out of 20 readers would not make the connection between the Varamyr prologue and Jon's stabbing on the 1st read of ADwD.

Yes he does use it very frequently... the question is, when he has planted things over the four preceding books that would appear to foreshadow a different outcome , does he intend us to disregard all of those, and latch onto the Varamyr possibilities instead? I think not. I'm going with all of those other clues being the ones that will fit the puzzle. The ones that are more well hidden.

I don't think the ones in the ADWD prologue are cliche or passe ..just more obvious, and GRRM seldom makes it obvious, or simple. And really, the second life implications are the first thing that comes to mind if you think Jon is dead or dying at the end of his last chapter. (That, and the possibility of Mel being able to deliver the un-kiss).

So why would GRRM go to all the trouble of crafting all the ambiguities in the description of the attack (many of them only apparent after multiple readings) ? I think they're too well hidden to serve the purpose of a red herring, while the Varamyr hints are right there in front of our noses.

[Green Hereseer]

Yes he does use it very frequently... the question is, when he has planted things over the four preceding books that would appear to foreshadow a different outcome , does he intend us to disregard all of those, and latch onto the Varamyr possibilities instead? I think not. I'm going with all of those other clues being the ones that will fit the puzzle. The ones that are more well hidden.

I don't think the ones in the ADWD prologue are cliche or passe ..just more obvious, and GRRM seldom makes it obvious, or simple. And really, the second life implications are the first thing that comes to mind if you think Jon is dead or dying at the end of his last chapter. (That, and the possibility of Mel being able to deliver the un-kiss).

So why would GRRM go to all the trouble of crafting all the ambiguities in the description of the attack (many of them only apparent after multiple readings) ? I think they're too well hidden to serve the purpose of a red herring, while the Varamyr hints are right there in front of our noses.

Bemused-- what is the different outcome you refer to? I think Jon warging into Ghost when we first see him in WoW is completely compatible with virtually any other Jon Snow end-game. His body could be magic-fixed by Mel and he could go on to be AA or ride a dragon. Or it could be someting way further afield (read: unlikely): he could stay a wolf, warg Hodor, or he could take over Stannis' body before this is over for all I know. I'm just saying the Varamyr thing is pointing to what's next: being Ghost for at least a while.

Also-- I never said the ADwD prologue is cliche. I think it's awesome, particularly in the call-back to it later when Arya is dreaming as the Night Wolf. What I said was that the R+L=J and similar theories are often considered passe on this site, but would not be to a casual reader. I think GRRM is insanely smart, but is generally writing the broad plot point with casual readers in mind, not us mega-fans.

Also, pt.2-- What are the ambiguities in the attack, other than the mystery of what happens after it? I've read it a few times, but I remember finding it pretty straight-forward. I'm genuinely curious what seems open to interpretation besides whether or not he survives and if so in what state.

[Boudica]

It is almost painfully obvious that Jon would most likely warg into Ghost, it is obviously something that often happens to wargs if they are in shock or in a stressful situation. We have seen it with Bran, Orell and Varamyr. But honestly it doesn't really mean or say much, it is all well and good for Jon to warg into Ghost, but then what? It just doesn't seem like much of an solution that is working towards something, Jon cant stay in Ghost for a long time. If Jon could perhaps connect with Bran or Bloodraven during an unconscious or semi comatose state, and learn more about his abilities, the war ahead or his role in the war ahead, then the whole situation might be interesting and worth it.

Most of the other situations just seem a bit illogical in personal opinion when you really look at it more closely. I might be wrong but I think I ve read before that GRRM will not write POV's from undead characters, he obviously did this with Lady Stoneheart. And it makes a lot of sense, there is no use to see the thoughts or inner workings of someone who is actually already dead. Therefore if Jon dies or goes into a state of a second life into Ghost, or he is resurrected by Melissandre, I guess we would then lose his POV?

In my opinion it would just be a bit of a waste to lose Jon as a POV at this stage, he is one of the most developed characters. His story has been very strongly developed and featured throughout all of the novels.

Jon will supposedly discover who his real parents are, GRRM has spent practically twenty years working on the question of Jon's heritage. It would be extremely anticlimax if the reader are not able to see Jon's thoughts on subject directly, in general it would just really seem like a lost opportunity and a waste of time.

Jon heritage might not mean a lot in Westeros, but it should have a deep personal impact on him directly, if you cant really see his internal struggle about the situation, then it was somewhat useless.

From a more practical point, what would his heritage really matter, if he is stuck in a direwolf or if he is an undead person? In my opinion the only viable conclusion to this situation would be if Jon was severely injured, and recover from his wounds.

The situation at the Wall and the Nights Watch, must also undergo some significant change after this action. In other words I hope we see practical reason, such as the Wall falling for example, for Jon's demise.

The last two books has really just left us with way too much cliffhangers. Jon, Brienne, Jamie and Davos, Asha and Theon has practically been left in a live or death situation, others such as Dany, Barristan Selmy and Cercei hover in very volatile situations.

It just seems like there needs to be some repercussions for Jon's demise, otherwise the whole event will have no meaning, and it would all come dangerously close to becoming somewhat indulgent. We already had/ have Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Robert Strong and Coldhands as undead characters, I just dont really think we another undead person, and I dont really see why it would be interesting to read the perspective of a wolf on long term basis. In summary I hope GRRM has some interesting way to deal with this situation in manner that would make some narrative sense and be satisfying to the reader.

I think it will be very interesting to see how the TV show handles this situation this season, because it can all easily led to a situation that might seem very cliched.

[Amris]

 

It is almost painfully obvious that Jon would most likely warg into Ghost, it is obviously something that often happens to wargs if they are in shock or in a stressful situation. We have seen it with Bran, Orell and Varamyr. But honestly it doesn't really mean or say much, it is all well and good for Jon to warg into Ghost, but then what? It just doesn't seem like much of an solution that is working towards something, Jon cant stay in Ghost for a long time. If Jon could perhaps connect with Bran or Bloodraven during an unconscious or semi comatose state, and learn more about his abilities, the war ahead or his role in the war ahead, then the whole situation might be interesting and worth it.

Most of the other situations just seem a bit illogical in personal opinion when you really look at it more closely. I might be wrong but I think I ve read before that GRRM will not write POV's from undead characters, he obviously did this with Lady Stoneheart. And it makes a lot of sense, there is no use to see the thoughts or inner workings of someone who is actually already dead. Therefore if Jon dies or goes into a state of a second life into Ghost, or he is resurrected by Melissandre, I guess we would then lose his POV?

In my opinion it would just be a bit of a waste to lose Jon as a POV at this stage, he is one of the most developed characters. His story has been very strongly developed and featured throughout all of the novels.

Jon will supposedly discover who his real parents are, GRRM has spent practically twenty years working on the question of Jon's heritage. It would be extremely anticlimax if the reader are not able to see Jon's thoughts on subject directly, in general it would just really seem like a lost opportunity and a waste of time.

Jon heritage might not mean a lot in Westeros, but it should have a deep personal impact on him directly, if you cant really see his internal struggle about the situation, then it was somewhat useless.

From a more practical point, what would his heritage really matter, if he is stuck in a direwolf or if he is an undead person? In my opinion the only viable conclusion to this situation would be if Jon was severely injured, and recover from his wounds.

The situation at the Wall and the Nights Watch, must also undergo some significant change after this action. In other words I hope we see practical reason, such as the Wall falling for example, for Jon's demise.

The last two books has really just left us with way too much cliffhangers. Jon, Brienne, Jamie and Davos, Asha and Theon has practically been left in a live or death situation, others such as Dany, Barristan Selmy and Cercei hover in very volatile situations.

It just seems like there needs to be some repercussions for Jon's demise, otherwise the whole event will have no meaning, and it would all come dangerously close to becoming somewhat indulgent. We already had/ have Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Robert Strong and Coldhands as undead characters, I just dont really think we another undead person, and I dont really see why it would be interesting to read the perspective of a wolf on long term basis. In summary I hope GRRM has some interesting way to deal with this situation in manner that would make some narrative sense and be satisfying to the reader.

I think it will be very interesting to see how the TV show handles this situation this season, because it can all easily led to a situation that might seem very cliched.

 

We have been told in the books that 'fire consumes but cold preserves'.

Bran has had that dream of seeing Jon seemingly lifeless lying in something resembling the ice-cells.

When is that scene supposed to come to pass if not now after his stabbing and seeming death?

I think it's not unreasonable to assume Jon's body gets preserved in a kind of suspended animation in an ice cell - not entirely dead but not healed either - while his soul goes on a spirit quest inside his aptly named wolf.