Jon snows death

[sj4iy]

OP: you may want to change the title of this thread, as it is a spoiler for those who have not read ADwD. The spoiler-averse should probably avoid this forum altogether, but still.

This isn't the still reading thread. Something that takes place in ADWD can't be a spoiler for ADWD.

[Ninerings]

I'm just going to point out here that Varamyr wanted to make Ghost his own because that would have been a second life "worthy of a king".

[Ninerings]

Quote function isn't working, but speaking of Jon going further North in Ghost, and Bran contact, there is a bunch in the Varamyr story about him sharing the body of the eagle with Orell. "He's here and he is telling me how much he hates you" or something to that effect. Wonder if Jon and Bran have some snapchats inside of Ghost.

[ladyprudence03]

How could Jon return? He is no follower of R'hllor so the God of light can't bring him back, can he?

It does make sense however to return him from the death, so he can be the new Lord of Winterfell.

Hopefully GRRM doesn't write Jons definite end. Jon is my favourite from the start :drool:

[Ninerings]

Stoneheart was a follower of R'hllor?

[Anthony Morris]

Stoneheart was a follower of R'hllor?

No Catelyn Stark worshipped the seven . Ned built her a sept at winterfell after they married iirc

[bemused]

GRRM likes cliffhangers... I think that ambiguity in Jon's stabbing scene is engineered to cause a cliffhanger...

I am not as creative as GRRM (surprisingly), but I fail to see how the stabbing event would advance the story if Jon survives the attack.

Jon Snow must die for the character development...

There are many things that have been hinted at in Jon's character that haven't been fully developed .. and many ways apart from death, that his character could be developed.

I've mentioned the "berserker" option, and there's a saved by Wun Wun/ the wildlings (who outnumber everyone else put together) option ...there's merely injured and healed by Val and Morna... and undoubtedly more, besides the well known death/resurrection or comatose/warged into Ghost options...just a few that we can think of, not knowing what GRRM has planned.

A very big theme is "You know nothing, Jon Snow.". Well, that's already less true than it was when Ygritte first uttered it, but he still has things to learn.. It's interesting that two other people that utter it are Mel and Val, and it's clear that he knows very little about either of them... as well as having much to learn about himself.

Jon has had wolf dreams and other dreams that appear to be being influenced , or "true" in some way. But he doesn't fully decipher the messages.. Jojen has explained the nature of greendreams.(He can trust that they will be true, but doesn't always understand the symbolism, himself.) Bran didn't understand his 3EC dreams fully, or begin to really learn until he met Leaf and Bloodraven in person. So I'm not sure how useful a coma or being limited to existing in Ghost would be.

Given the examples of Beric, LS and Victarion , I don't see how either resurrection or healing by Mel would preserve enough of Jon to be a positive step. Rather than developing a character, it seems to be destructive.

I think something Jon needs immediately is to develop the working (not the existence) of his warg bond .. and that is properly done while conscious (e.g. Bran is guided by Jojen, Arya is becoming aware, and practising, through the cat , not her dreams)..and Jon has a possible guide ("brother") at hand in Borroq.

It seems to me that while Jon may well have some future mission north of the wall, it may not be right away , with two whole books left to go. He has enough to sort out on his plate right now. If there's to be a parallel journey to Dany flying off on Drogon (as may be), for Jon, it may be in marching south to confront Ramsay..and whatever that leads to.

ETA: I quite agree that the CoTF's back door will be used at some point, but it may already have been used off-page by Benjen...we may just have yet to hear about it.

[addicted to snow]

Quote function isn't working, but speaking of Jon going further North in Ghost, and Bran contact, there is a bunch in the Varamyr story about him sharing the body of the eagle with Orell. "He's here and he is telling me how much he hates you" or something to that effect. Wonder if Jon and Bran have some snapchats inside of Ghost.

Interesting, I have never heard this called 'snapchats', but it fits...

I do think that something like this will happen, but it will occur between Varamyr himself (or what is left of him)... I think that both Jon & Varamyr will be trying very hard to take Hodor's body... Back in the ADWD's Prologue, GRRM was careful to word it so that Varamyr only thought that he would be trapped within his wolf (or Thistle) for the duration of his 2nd Life... Varamyr's information on 2nd Lives came from Haggon, and Haggon has been proven to be an unreliable source of warging info... He told Varamyr several things that Varamyr later discovered were incorrect. Haggon was weak, afraid of his gifts. & Varamyr was the most powerful of all the Wargs (or so he thought)... If there is a way to get out of one's 2nd life, Varamyr will find it...

But I do see Varamyr & Jon's minds melding into one. I think this will compromise Jon's moral compass and catalyze Jon's Downfall, but give him a lifetime's worth of advanced warging knowledge at the same time... Everything that is needed to give rise to the Night's King...

[Lord Damian]

One thing I thought points out that he may have died said:

He NEVER felt it

He had warged Ghost I suspect by the time the fourth dagger landed.

[addicted to snow]

It seems to me that while Jon may well have some future mission north of the wall, it may not be right away , with two whole books left to go. He has enough to sort out on his plate right now. If there's to be a parallel journey to Dany flying off on Drogon (as may be), for Jon, it may be in marching south to confront Ramsay..and whatever that leads to.

GRRM said that we would get a POV character in the Heart of Winter, and what better book to do that in than TWoW? Jon promised in AGoTs that "Ghost & I " (quite literally) will go find him (Benjin). I think GRRM will kill two birds with one stone, If Benjin is @ the Heart of Winter, then we get our Heart of Winter POV & Jon finds Benjin all in the same chapter (or two).

I can't give exact quotations & whatnot, but there is a ton of foreshadowing that suggest that Ghost & Val will be spending a lot of time together behind the wall in TWoW. I think Val will be Ghost/Jon's guide to the Heart of Winter.

ETA: I quite agree that the CoTF's back door will be used at some point, but it may already have been used off-page by Benjen...we may just have yet to hear about it.

It could have been Benjin & it could have already happened... but I think that it will be Ghost/Jon... Why? two reasons:

Reason#1

When Jojen & Meera first came to Winterfell the direwolves attacked them & Meera freaked out. Jojen only said "Relax Sister, this is not the day I die." That is an odd thing for Jojen to say, but Jojen has Green Dreams - Jojen has seen his death, he knows how he dies, and he has told his sister... Jojen will be killed/eaten by a direwolf... This why Jojen mopes around in the Cave, he knows that is where he is going to die & he feels that he cannot change this fate...

Reason#2

About 1.5 to 2.0 years ago GRRM did an interview where he told the reader that he was working on TWoW... I'll Paraphrase... GRRM said "You have Jon Snow, running through the forrest, pursued by enemies. He is hungry. What is he going to eat? What is my next sentence? What is my next word?"

Many, if not most people who read this interview took this as a hypothetical situation that GRRM quickly pulled out of his a_s during the interview. That is not the way GRRM works. In GRRM-Land, nothing is said that does not one or more meanings. In this case, GRRM was really & truly telling about a scene from TWOW - He was not hypothetically speaking, not GRRM.

Mixing the two points above we get Jon Snow (Ghost/Jon) is starving to death. He is returning from the Heart of Winter where there is no food & he has not eaten in weeks. He's also running through the Haunted Forest, pursued by Others (or Wights). He evades his pursuers by accidentally falling down a sinkhole. A sinkhole that leads to a cave that is conveniently warded against Other &/or Wights. At the bottom of the sinkhole Ghost/Jon discovers a depressed boy walking around in a cave... Jon Snow eats Jojen...

Given the examples of Beric, LS and Victarion , I don't see how either resurrection or healing by Mel would preserve enough of Jon to be a positive step. Rather than developing a character, it seems to be destructive.

I don't think Jon will be brought back in the way that Beric, Victarion, or LS were... I think that he will be brought back in the same way that MMD brought Khal Drogo back to life... Note: some say that the Khal never actually died, but MMD said "The Dead will Dance here Tonight" & Khal Drogo was among the dead spirits dancing - I take that to mean that he was dead.

I don't think that Jon Snow's Spirit will ever reunite with his body...

I think something Jon needs immediately is to develop the working (not the existence) of his warg bond .. and that is properly done while conscious (e.g. Bran is guided by Jojen, Arya is becoming aware, and practising, through the cat , not her dreams)..and Jon has a possible guide ("brother") at hand in Borroq.

I totally agree. Jon's character is the most underdeveloped in the series. Arya, Bran, etc they are learning the tricks of their trades. Jon does not even know that his trade exists.

Yes, Jon could learn from Borroq, but the reader has already seen Bran learning how to be a warg, firsthand. The reader has been offered additional Warging information via Varamyr's Prologue. I find it highly unlikely that GRRM is going to rehash a bunch of redundant information for the reader while Jon is learning...

There Must be an alternate way for Jon to obtain the knowledge that he needs to be a super-powerful Warg. I think that GRRM has a catalyst planned that will give Jon all of this information at once, it will just compromise his morals... See my previous post, or for a more detailed explanation, or read the OP at the link in my signature (or below):

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117080-flaming-swords-comets-nissa-nissa-ned-stark-khal-drog-jon-snow/

Basically, GRRM gave mountains & mountains of backstory regarding Varamyr. Part of that was to teach the reader about Warging, but Martin went FAR beyond that. We received more personality & character information on Varamyr than we did on Tywin Lannister. Varamyr's role in the story is not over. He will somehow mix (minds) with Jon Snow. Jon will obtain a lifetime worth of Warg Training, but his morals will be compromised, and the reader will have to suffer hearing the word "Abomination, Abomination, Abomination" every time Jon commits anther atrocity.

GRRM said that Jon Snow has some "Dark Roads to Walk"... & he does... Everything is downhill from here. He will grow in power exponentially, but he will suffer more & more morally as he becomes the Night's King... Ultimately, Arya will put him out of his misery...

[Ninerings]

No Catelyn Stark worshipped the seven . Ned built her a sept at winterfell after they married iirc

Thanks man, I was being sarcastic. :ph34r:

[bemused]

addicted to snow... Re: your post, above..

Well... all I can say is that your interpretation is very far from my own in many particulars, large and small. To focus on a few of them...

I'm not convinced there will be (or should be) another Night's King and, mindful of the fact that history is written (and often embellished) by the victor, I'm not even sure the original Night's King has been truthfully represented.

GRRM has said that we will see the Land of Always Winter.. but he doesn't say who will take us there. And I don't know if you're taking this into account or not, but he didn't say that we will have no more new POVs ..he said that we will have no new POVs from characters that we haven't met (and we've met quite a few important characters who haven't had POVs.. yet)

As for Jon running through the forest, I can only think that you're awfully trusting to believe that GRRM would give away something he was actually writing about Jon in the next book. In context, he was talking about the kinds of things a writer has to think about while writing..the details that make a storyline real. He was (undoubtedly) teasing us (as he often does) by using Jon as an example , but I'll bet my boots he wasn't making a mistake , or giving out a spoiler for TWoW. When has he ever given away an important scenario, as you suggest he's doing ,here? Even the sample chapters he's released don't give away anything important about any of the main protagonists. .... So yes, of course it's a hypothetical situation.

GRRM is playful enough that at some point, Jon (or some other character) may find himself/herself in such a situation.. but there's no clue as to what forest it is, who the enemies are or what the character was up to .. where he/she had been or was going.

Because I interpret things differently, I can't come to the same conclusions, and only time will tell if either of us have figured any of it out.

For example, Jon's promise to go and find Benjen : Benjen disappeared north of the wall and naturally, that's where Jon thinks he'd have to go to find him... But Jon and Ghost have already gone north of the wall searching for Benjen (with Mormont).. but failed to find him.. They may yet find him.. but not necessarily north of the wall. ..I don't take Jon's promise as one that will necessarily work out, or at least, not as he imagines.

OTOH, I think Bran's spontaneous ,"The children will help him (Benjen) ... the children of the forest." will work out exactly (or already has)... Because there are many ways the CoTF could help, this has a better chance of working out.. Jon's promise is specific (go and find him) Bran's supposition is not.. We know the CoTF have helped both Bran and Jon (directly or indirectly). So it follows that they would help Benjen.

I'm of the opinion that Benjen is in Winterfell (the hooded man) and I think there have been many clues and exercises in logic presented in the text to support this. It's something I've laid out in detail on many threads, so I won't go into it at length, here... but for me, that means if/when Jon does travel to the heart of winter, that won't be where he finds Benjen.

I suspect we'll find a parallel exists between Jon and Benjen, something along the lines of :

1) North of the wall, Qhorin convinces Jon that it's in the NW's interest if Jon should appear to desert, while secretly remaining true to his vows. This has already proven to have been in the best interests of the NW and men, in general ... (for the greater good).

2) On his ranging, BJ comes into contact with BR/CoTF , who convince him to appear to be vanished or dead while he returns to WF ("There must always be a Stark in WF" , "Starks must rally the north" , etc. etc.).Ultimately, this action will prove to be for the greater good by sustaining whatever magic exists between the wall and WF (Starks) and will not be a betrayal of his vows, but merely an extension of his original mission.

I won't address Jon eating Jojen except to say that I think you've gone far afield on Jojen and the direwolves .. and on his dream foretelling his death. We don't know what his dream is, whether Meera knows it in detail, or why Jojen is torn between going home or staying in the cave. Which does he fear - going or staying ? All we know is, Jojen feels his part in Bran's story is done, and even the implications of that are left open to debate. Does he feel he has no further purpose in life? Can we trust that he will have no more greendreams that might add a chapter or two to his life ? I don't think we can.

Jon doesn't need any extra knowledge to become "a super powerful warg" . He already is what he is. Whatever power he has, or will show in future, is his already. He only needs to realise it, acknowledge it and learn how to manage it.

The only "respect" Varamyr enjoyed was based on fear. He was otherwise reviled. Haggon may have been limited by his own experience and susperstition (e.g. skinchanging birds, when we see no problems for Bran or BR)... Borroq is mentioned in V's chapter.. and later Tormund includes Borroq among his best men. ( Yes, he says "best or wost" but the reason for "worst" is, that every one of them had killed a crow.)

I suspect Borroq is there to provide a third opinion, not corrupt, like Varamyr, nor perhaps hidebound, like Haggon .. but something more ideal and suitable to Jon's needs... And I don't see why you would suppose this would mean repeating the same information that was given to Bran, a child.. or that GRRM has nothing further to say on the subject.

Borroq is also bonded to a very large, intelligent animal, that he appears to have under good control ,though boars are generally thought to be bad tempered and unpredictable. ..Maybe as close as you can get to managing a direwolf without having a direwolf. (I have a feeling , especially after TWoIaF, that only Starks can bond with direwolves) ...And don't forget that boars are generally seen to be associated with change in the series, perhaps presaging that Borroq and his boar will be part of an important change for Jon and Ghost.

I don't think Jon's character is underdeveloped at all (just his bond) . I'd say most of the main protagonists still have things to learn about themselves and will still have great challenges to face, in one way or another (that will continue to bring each of their hearts into "conflict with itself"). I also doubt his morals will be compromised, but I think he will continue to have to decide for himself what is the moral path to take (as he has been doing) .. and not just rely on conventional perceptions. Conventional wisdom falters in unconventional circumstances.

I don't buy that "dark roads to walk" means that Jon becomes less moral, or begins to commit atrocities and I see no foundation for thinking so. Hard times breed hard men but won't necessarily make them immoral.

Your projections go right off the edge of the map, for me, but of course I don't expect to convince you of that.

[addicted to snow]

Jon doesn't need any extra knowledge to become "a super powerful warg" . He already is what he is. Whatever power he has, or will show in future, is his already. He only needs to realise it, acknowledge it and learn how to manage it.

Yes, this is knowledge, wouldn't you agree...

As for Jon running through the forest, I can only think that you're awfully trusting to believe that GRRM would give away something he was actually writing about Jon in the next book. In context, he was talking about the kinds of things a writer has to think about while writing..the details that make a storyline real. He was (undoubtedly) teasing us (as he often does) by using Jon as an example , but I'll bet my boots he wasn't making a mistake , or giving out a spoiler for TWoW. When has he ever given away an important scenario, as you suggest he's doing ,here? Even the sample chapters he's released don't give away anything important about any of the main protagonists. .... So yes, of course it's a hypothetical situation.

GRRM is playful enough that at some point, Jon (or some other character) may find himself/herself in such a situation.. but there's no clue as to what forest it is, who the enemies are or what the character was up to .. where he/she had been or was going.

The events occur in TWOW... Jon's body won't be running anywhere anytime soon, so it has to be Ghost/Jon... We know that Ghost/Jon is headed North, so it must be the Haunted Forest...

I won't address Jon eating Jojen except to say that I think you've gone far afield on Jojen and the direwolves .. and on his dream foretelling his death. We don't know what his dream is, whether Meera knows it in detail, or why Jojen is torn between going home or staying in the cave. Which does he fear - going or staying ? All we know is, Jojen feels his part in Bran's story is done, and even the implications of that are left open to debate. Does he feel he has no further purpose in life? Can we trust that he will have no more greendreams that might add a chapter or two to his life ? I don't think we can.

Jojen knows that he dies by Direwolf... He is obsessed with Direwolves when he gets to Winterfell... Little Walder even cracks a joke that Jojen will be eaten by a Direwolf... Plus when threatened by the direwolves he assures his sister that "This is not the day I die"...

It all suggest that Jojen knows exactly how he will die & he has shared this information with Meera...

If you are familiar with the way Martin writes, it should not be too hard to pick up on...

---

But I understand, you hold to the idea that Jon Snow has to be a good-guy... I don not because that is not the way that GRRM writes...

[bemused]

:lol: I'm very familiar with the way Martin writes, and am generally not known to be very slow on the up-take .. I simply disagree with your interpretation. (But thanks for the chuckle)

" But I understand, you hold to the idea that Jon Snow has to be a good-guy... I don not because that is not the way that GRRM writes... "

I don't know if you intended this to sound condescending, but it does. I'd say most of the people who post here (at least those who try to make thoughtful posts) don't really subscribe to a simple "good guy / bad guy " view of characters, and I'd include myself among them.. There is good and there is bad.. but even a character who generally acts for the overall good, can make terrible mistakes or misjudgments and even a character whose intentions are bad might inadvertently do something good..and so on. All characters have their own foibles that can get in their way at any time.

I do think Jon is one of GRRMs "Heroes", but I don't think any of his heroes will truly adhere to the term as it's generally understood..Do I think that means they will take a 180% turn, or flip entirely ? No. I think that would be simplistic. That's just my view.

[addicted to snow]

:lol: I'm very familiar with the way Martin writes, and am generally not known to be very slow on the up-take .. I simply disagree with your interpretation. (But thanks for the chuckle)

Then surely you can identify some hints that Jojen will be eaten by a direwolf in Jojen & Meera's introductory chapter. I think it is Bran 3 of ACoKs...

" But I understand, you hold to the idea that Jon Snow has to be a good-guy... I don not because that is not the way that GRRM writes... "

I don't know if you intended this to sound condescending, but it does. I'd say most of the people who post here (at least those who try to make thoughtful posts) don't really subscribe to a simple "good guy / bad guy " view of characters, and I'd include myself among them.. There is good and there is bad.. but even a character who generally acts for the overall good, can make terrible mistakes or misjudgments and even a character whose intentions are bad might inadvertently do something good..and so on. All characters have their own foibles that can get in their way at any time.

I do think Jon is one of GRRMs "Heroes", but I don't think any of his heroes will truly adhere to the term as it's generally understood..Do I think that means they will take a 180% turn, or flip entirely ? No. I think that would be simplistic. That's just my view.

I did not mean that to sound condescending... You just happen to fall into the HUGE Camp of readers & posters here who think that Jon is destined for greatness... When 99% of the readership believes a thing will happen (Jon destined for greatness), that means there is a 0% chance of it ever playing out in the books...

If you think about it, you have to know that this is true... GRRM does not write things that predictable to 99% of his audience...

---

It is frustrating trying to have an intelligent discussion with intelligent people, but they will not even consider your views because they think Jon is destined for greatness & anything to the contrary is absurd...

[bemused]

^^ I know what you're referring to in that chapter. Actually LW just says the direwolves will take a bite out of Jojen - and there is a danger of that happening in the very next chapter when Jojen is pressing Bran about his dreams..

I see where you're coming from, but I read it differently.

I'll answer you more fully and seriously .. but it's midnight, here, and I have a very busy day tomorrow ,so I probably won't get a chance to do it until late tomorrow or early monday.

[Green Hereseer]

Then surely you can identify some hints that Jojen will be eaten by a direwolf in Jojen & Meera's introductory chapter. I think it is Bran 3 of ACoKs...

I gotta say I think you're seeing grumkins in the woodpile. Jojen most definitely knows that he is dying in the cave-- whether willingly or not. There's absolutely no reason to think this has anything to do with a direwolf. It seems way more likely to me that he sacrifices himself so the CoTF can feed Bran some Sweet Sweet Magical Jojen-Paste . That would at least fit with where the character ends up-- missing-- and the other forshadowing-- e.g. "He [bran] isn't the one who should be afraid." If Jojen has't yet been turned into paste, I think he will still die in the cave, possibly of outright weakness from his travels.

When 99% of the readership believes a thing will happen (Jon destined for greatness), that means there is a 0% chance of it ever playing out in the books...

No idea where this is coming from. GRRM does predictable things all the time. He forshadows things all the time. If he didn't, the books would be unreadable. There about a gazillion hints prior to the following things (and many others) that DO happen:

--Ned's betrayal and murder

--Robb's betrayal and murder

--Dany getting dragons

--Cercei's downfall

--Jon's betrayal and stabbing

As far as Jon being destined for greatness, I'm pretty sure he already qualifies. If you mean that he's gotta ride a dragon into the heart of winter to stop the Cold and get Benjen out alive before landing atop the Red Keep to rule 4 eva then yeah, maybe that's a bit far fetched.

[The Hempflower Knight]

Um, how does Jon's supposed warging hodor even get mentioned in this conversation? And Jojen knows he will be killed by a direwolf? Its astounding that someone who is spouting such unfounded crackpottery would claim to be more perceptive then 99% of grrm's fanbase.

[addicted to snow]

reread the first chapter Jojen is in...

[Masha]

GRRM likes cliffhangers... I think that ambiguity in Jon's stabbing scene is engineered to cause a cliffhanger...

I am not as creative as GRRM (surprisingly), but I fail to see how the stabbing event would advance the story if Jon survives the attack.

Jon Snow must die for the character development...

There is a generous amount of foreshadowing that Ghost/Jon & Val will spend much of TWoW together, doing something North of the Wall. I think that Val will guide Ghost/Jon to the Heart of Winter where he will find his Uncle. It would not surprise me at all if Ghost/Jon stumble upon Bran's Cave at some point. The author did have cold-hands mention that the cave has a 'backdoor' that is a sinkhole. The way that GRRM writes, this means that at some point, someone MUST fall down that sinkhole - I think it will be Ghost/Jon.

In the meantime, Mel (who trained in Ashai just like MMD) will use the same magic utilized to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Just as Khal Drogo's body was brought back without his soul, so too will Jon's body be brought back souless. The Wall stops the communications between a Warg & his animal, so Jon may suddenly be back in his 1st life, but unable to reunite with his body. Jon's body will be thrown into the ice cells where it will freeze.

Jon may kill the Three Eyed Crow, he may steal Hodor's Body, he may do any number of things... One thing is certain, his morals will be compromised after his mind mixes with the dire wolf's mind. In the end, Jon will end up being the bad guy... The Night's King... We have got to have a POV character that can lead the Others... Jon is the man for the Job... The ONLY man for the job...

There is a short interview with GRRM where he basically says that at the end of ADWD Jon didn't die - he fell unconscious. And then he says - whether he dies or lives will be decided in the next book.

So, at this point, my theory is that Jon will never physically die at all but will probably spend a good half of the book in the coma in bed, while his consciousness is in Ghost running around - running thru the woods pursued by humans/others and starving.

I bet Ghost will go crazy mad and uncontrollable immediately after attack on Jon, and with no one around who could be considered his friend or even friendly, he will randomly attack people surrounding Jon - regardless of being friend or foe, and they run him off, By the time Jon realizes what has happened, and gains control of Ghost as a Warg it will be too late. His body will be in coma at Castle Black, while Ghost with his consciousness running around North of the Wall (or maybe South) and till two are reunited he won't be able to wake up. Here is a crazy theory - perhaps someone (Other or R'hllor) will take his body for a ride too.