Could Sansa annul her own marriage? [SPOILERS]

[PrinceHenryris]

I just read the new Sansa/Alayne sample chapter. She again mentions that she's still married to Tyrion, but why would that matter once she reveals herself as Sansa Stark.

Couldn't she claim:

1) The marriage was never consummated;

2) She was forced to marry Tyrion at sword point, real or imagined; and/or

3) That she's Sansa Stark of Winterfell and a follower of the "Old Gods" and considers any marriage not performed before a Heart Tree is a Southron fiction.

It would seem that she has enough ammunition to discard her marriage to Tyrion, especially if LF is helping.

[Bironic]

I just read the new Sansa/Alayne sample chapter. She again mentions that she's still married to Tyrion, but why would that matter once she reveals herself as Sansa Stark.

Couldn't she claim:

1) The marriage was never consummated;

2) She was forced to marry Tyrion at sword point, real or imagined; and/or

3) That she's Sansa Stark of Winterfell and a follower of the "Old Gods" and considers any marriage not performed before a Heart Tree is a Southron fiction.

It would seem that she has enough ammunition to discard her marriage to Tyrion, especially if LF is helping.

2) Forced marriage is common in Westeros. For Example Rodrik Cassel thinks that Ramsay's marriage to Lady Hornwood was legal, although he knew it was forced.

3) Sansa will most likely marry a follower of the 7, she lives in the south, so this would only function if she were somewhere in the north. And even then it is unlikely that they will accept it as reason to declare her marriage illegal.

1) This is the most probable cause. It's easy to set aside a marriage that was never consummated. Justin Massey mentions this to Stannis.

[John Doe]

In the North they would accept it, I'm not sure in the Vale, but it can be done.

[AllOfTheHours]

We have a few interesting insights from GRRM about this in a So Spake Martin. I'll embed the link here.

I hope that helps too. :) Basically, Sansa can annul her marriage, but she has to do it as Sansa. So, as long as the Lannisters (and their allies) have sway in KL and Sansa is wanted for kingslaying, she probably won't come out of hiding to petition the faith. (She might end up with an annulment, but in a dungeon or shorter by a head as well.) So, to LF, just having her widowed is simpler and easier. But, it is possible that she can get out of her marriage without either Tyrion or herself dying first.

[Bironic]

We have a few interesting insights from GRRM about this in a So Spake Martin. I'll embed the link here.

I hope that helps too. :) Basically, Sansa can annul her marriage, but she has to do it as Sansa. So, as long as the Lannisters (and their allies) have sway in KL and Sansa is wanted for kingslaying, she probably won't come out of hiding to petition the faith. (She might end up with an annulment, but in a dungeon or shorter by a head as well.) So, to LF, just having her widowed is simpler and easier. But, it is possible that she can get out of her marriage without either Tyrion or herself dying first.

It would be easier if he knew where Tyrion is... But he doesn't.

I wonder why the High sparrow should annul this marriage though. The High sparrow doesn't strike me as a man that can be easily swayed by a bag of gold like LF did with Slynt. He even holds one of LF sworn swords as captive.

[Byfort of Corfe]

I agree with those who say that the major problem is that Sansa has to come out of hiding to do it. As soon as she does that she becomes a target again. While I am sure that there are some in the Vale who at the very least suspect that Alayne is Sansa their innate distrust of the Lannisters will probably be enough to keep them quiet. Now I'm also pretty sure that LF would rather have Sansa widowed, after all that would remove Tyrion from the picture. I'm pretty sure that LF considers Tyrion to be the most capable of the Lannisters.

[JLE]

I think it's foreshadowing that she will *refuse* to set aside her marriage to Tyrion, even though she has legal grounds to do so.

[Raksha 2014]

Sansa still has time; she should be 14 or at most 15 at the time of this chapter (she wasn't yet 14 when we last saw her in AFFC). Things could change very rapidly in Westeros; I expect a major regime change in King's Landing within the next three years, between Aegon and Daenerys gunning for the Iron Throne. Also, if Mace Tyrell dies, and Cersei is removed from a position of influence, then even if Tommen or Myrcella are still enthroned, Sansa's greatest enemies on the Small Council are removed and given the right influence by Littlefinger, could revoke the King-slaying charge against her, leaving Sansa free to petition for the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. If Daenerys conquers King's Landing and with it the High Septon, and Tyrion comes with her, Sansa would be able to at least negotiate with them, depending on how much Tyrion still holds a grudge against her for (as far as he knows) her abandonment of him and possible killing of Joffrey.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I'm curious, what is LF entire "plan" that is mentioned in the chapter? "Alayne" is betrothed to Harry, and Harry has arrived which was "step 1" of their plan apparently, but I assume that Sansa would only ever marry Harry after revealing herself, but then she specifically mentions the whole Tyrion thing within the same chapter. What is their "plan" for Harry then?

[aryagonnakill#2]

No 1 has ever been able to answer me as to why Sansa and Tyrions marriage was legitimate in the first place since Tyrion was already married.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I just read the new Sansa/Alayne sample chapter. She again mentions that she's still married to Tyrion, but why would that matter once she reveals herself as Sansa Stark.

Couldn't she claim:

1) The marriage was never consummated;

2) She was forced to marry Tyrion at sword point, real or imagined; and/or

3) That she's Sansa Stark of Winterfell and a follower of the "Old Gods" and considers any marriage not performed before a Heart Tree is a Southron fiction.

Yes, she could say that the marriage wasn't consummated, and she could say that she had been coerced, both reasons would give her some grounds for an annulment. It's still for the High Septon to officially dissolve the marriage.

(No, your third argument can't possibly fly. The idea that any party can post factum claim "the vows don't count, because I said them in front of a god I don't believe in"... No. Just no. Nobody would accept that argument.)

[Woman of War]

I think it's foreshadowing that she will *refuse* to set aside her marriage to Tyrion, even though she has legal grounds to do so.

:agree:

Sansa still has time; she should be 14 or at most 15 at the time of this chapter (she wasn't yet 14 when we last saw her in AFFC). Things could change very rapidly in Westeros; I expect a major regime change in King's Landing within the next three years, between Aegon and Daenerys gunning for the Iron Throne. Also, if Mace Tyrell dies, and Cersei is removed from a position of influence, then even if Tommen or Myrcella are still enthroned, Sansa's greatest enemies on the Small Council are removed and given the right influence by Littlefinger, could revoke the King-slaying charge against her, leaving Sansa free to petition for the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. If Daenerys conquers King's Landing and with it the High Septon, and Tyrion comes with her, Sansa would be able to at least negotiate with them, depending on how much Tyrion still holds a grudge against her for (as far as he knows) her abandonment of him and possible killing of Joffrey.

If Sansa is free to petition for an annulment then she does not need Tyrion's agreement here. Even if he should hold whatever grudge against her it would be rather pointless do deny an annulment. What would he do with a wife that is formally married to him but won't live with him? Even if some people believe evil Tyrion might still wish to claim WF through her and prevent her from marrying someone else it won't be possible since there will be Jon, Bran or Rickon in the end. Sansa has no claim.

But even now Tyrion does not hold any grudge against Sansa anymore, he did not put the blame on her when he could. Why should he give her trouble in a petty way? After all he himself might want to marry someone else.

Only I believe in a somewhat different scenario to come.

Because it seems to be so easy in the end for Sansa to annull that marriage I am convinced that it will never happen, that in the end Sansa and Tyrion will decide against annulment, for whatever reason Martin still has to tell us. Meaning that both protagonists will finally decide to stay together out of free will.

Will I like it? Ask me after the last epilogue but I guess Martin will make me like it.

[Lady Whiskers Outlaws Beet]

Sansa's arc has partly been about overcoming prejudices. She'd learned that people who are physically beautiful could have an ugly soul, perfectly exemplified by Joffrey. She found an unlikely protector in the Hound, the single most savage looking person in court. She learned that a lot isn't as they seem, her knight Dontos was sent by LF, Marillion the supposedly sensitive singer wasn't gallant, and now she had finally admitted to herself that Tyrion as a person was kind and probably not that bad.

The snowflakes and constant mention of snow might well foreshadow Sansa/Jon, but if she's going to become a real playah, she'd realize how politically useful it is that she's married to the heir of Casterly Rock. Maybe she'll have other lovers along the way. Anyway to reach this conclusion she's got to finish her apprenticeship under (ew...) LF

[DarkSister1001]

2) Forced marriage is common in Westeros. For Example Rodrik Cassel thinks that Ramsay's marriage to Lady Hornwood was legal, although he knew it was forced.

3) Sansa will most likely marry a follower of the 7, she lives in the south, so this would only function if she were somewhere in the north. And even then it is unlikely that they will accept it as reason to declare her marriage illegal.

1) This is the most probable cause. It's easy to set aside a marriage that was never consummated. Justin Massey mentions this to Stannis.

Maseter Luwin tells him that vows said at sword point are invalid.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion cannot and will not "keep" Sansa against her will. Apart from all moral considerations it would not be of any use for him, actually it would be hell on earth.

So it simply does not matter if it is easy or complicated for Sansa and for Tyrion to end their marriage because it was was forced or never cosummated. If one of them wants to end it this will happen, full stop.

But why is everyone assuming that it will be Sansa who feels chained by that marriage and who wants to get out? It might as well be Tyrion who has found an alternative or who cannot imagine living with the person Sansa might have become.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Maybe Tyrion may want to break free from a wedding his father forced him to do and Sansa can prove she is virgin.The current High Septon may be killed and replaced by another puppet like his predecessors.If Sansa is becoming influencial in the Vale,Aegon can arrange for her annulment to gain the Vale's support.Given his hate for the Lannisters he can declare her innocent for regicide.

[AllOfTheHours]

No 1 has ever been able to answer me as to why Sansa and Tyrions marriage was legitimate in the first place since Tyrion was already married.

Well, its most likely that Tywin demanded Tyrion annul his first marriage. I'm pretty sure he did, because Tywin had been proposing other matches for Tyrion for years, and Tywin is smart enough not to marry his already married son (it would be humiliating to the Lannisters and whichever family took Tyrion and would be a terrible political faux pas). And Tyrion probably wanted to be free from Tysha when he mistakenly believed she played him false, and would willingly get an annulment. But it still hasn't been clearly stated what happened, so there could be a lot more to the story.

It would be easier if he knew where Tyrion is... But he doesn't.

I wonder why the High sparrow should annul this marriage though. The High sparrow doesn't strike me as a man that can be easily swayed by a bag of gold like LF did with Slynt. He even holds one of LF sworn swords as captive.

I agree, it's only easier in LF's mind, because he doesn't seem to realize what a survivor Tyrion is. Widowhood would serve LF's purposes because Sansa wouldn't have to reveal her identity or deal with the Faith (for the reasons you stated about the HS), but if Tyrion doesn't die on his own, I sense a major LF vs. Tyrion conflict coming up. (Time for some popcorn :) )

Sansa's arc has partly been about overcoming prejudices. She'd learned that people who are physically beautiful could have an ugly soul, perfectly exemplified by Joffrey. She found an unlikely protector in the Hound, the single most savage looking person in court. She learned that a lot isn't as they seem, her knight Dontos was sent by LF, Marillion the supposedly sensitive singer wasn't gallant, and now she had finally admitted to herself that Tyrion as a person was kind and probably not that bad.

The snowflakes and constant mention of snow might well foreshadow Sansa/Jon, but if she's going to become a real playah, she'd realize how politically useful it is that she's married to the heir of Casterly Rock. Maybe she'll have other lovers along the way. Anyway to reach this conclusion she's got to finish her apprenticeship under (ew...) LF

Tyrion cannot and will not "keep" Sansa against her will. Apart from all moral considerations it would not be of any use for him, actually it would be hell on earth.

So it simply does not matter if it is easy or complicated for Sansa and for Tyrion to end their marriage because it was was forced or never cosummated. If one of them wants to end it this will happen, full stop.

But why is everyone assuming that it will be Sansa who feels chained by that marriage and who wants to get out? It might as well be Tyrion who has found an alternative or who cannot imagine living with the person Sansa might have become.

I find the idea of a Tyrion/Sansa endgame to be really fascinating. I think Sansa is ok with Tyrion as a person. She recognizes that he was kind to her. And she is learning to see past external markers of value (beauty, wealth, status). However, I don't think she wants to be with any Lannister for the rest of her life. She wouldn't want her kids to be related to Cersei, Joffrey, and Tywin. Although it would be ironic! But I think as Sansa comes more into her own and becomes her own person, staying in her marriage could either show growth (choosing compassion/forgiveness) or regression (stuck with the Lannisters again). So I'm still unsure, but I am keeping my eyes sharp for any clues when tWoW comes out.

Also, snowflakes and Jon, that is a really interesting catch! I'll keep an eye on that too... :)

[Bironic]

Maseter Luwin tells him that vows said at sword point are invalid.

You are right, I forgot about that. Jaime says something similar about his vow to Catelyn (but that is perhaps only in the TV series).

[DarkSister1001]

You are right, I forgot about that. Jaime says something similar about his vow to Catelyn (but that is perhaps only in the TV series).

I honestly don't remember if that was show, book or both. I've been re-watching all of the seasons coming up to the premier and simultaneously re-reading Bran (which led me to Sam, which led me to Jon, you know how that shit goes, lol) so some of the small facts are a little muddled for me right now. :)

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Well, its most likely that Tywin demanded Tyrion annul his first marriage. I'm pretty sure he did, because Tywin had been proposing other matches for Tyrion for years, and Tywin is smart enough not to marry his already married son (it would be humiliating to the Lannisters and whichever family took Tyrion and would be a terrible political faux pas). And Tyrion probably wanted to be free from Tysha when he mistakenly believed she played him false, and would willingly get an annulment. But it still hasn't been clearly stated what happened, so there could be a lot more to the story.

Or, the simplest possible thing, Tywin just had her killed. It's Tywin Lannister we're talking about, after all.