[Winds Spoilers] How Does Alayne I Affect Your Opinion of Sansa's Intelligence?

[Roose on the Loose]

As recently as last Summer, Sana threads would always turn into food fights between people who think she's intrinsically vapid, and those of us who understand that she spent most of Clash and Storm playing dumb and keeping her head down. Recently the haters have all gotten hip or found something else to do with their devices.

Before the new chapter, there was some solid evidence that she's smarter than she acts. She's better at reading than any of her brothers including a king, a god and a lord crow. She identifies Renly with minimal clues, and she has a genuine gift for handling snotty little brats. She learned with Joff, and applied her trade to SR. It may yet come in handy with Harry.

But take her out of the Lion's Den and she really flourishes. Instead of trying to convince everyone that she's too dim to plot treason, she's plotting treason, and that suits her much better. She came up with the idea for the joust and she continues to work her magic with SR.

[The Holy Goat]

I still consider Sansa to be the least intelligent among Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Jon.

However I do consider all the Stark kids to be intelligent, only Sansa the least so.

And no, I do not dislike her. Quite the opposite in fact.

I merely try to look at her character objectively.

I mean, nothing the latest chapter was very revolutionary.

[messem]

As recently as last Summer, Sana threads would always turn into food fights between people who think she's intrinsically vapid, and those of us who understand that she spent most of Clash and Storm playing dumb and keeping her head down.

Well ... at least you are not biased.

Before the new chapter, there was some solid evidence that she's smarter than she acts. She's better at reading than any of her brothers including a king, a god and a lord crow. She identifies Renly with minimal clues,

I have literally no idea what you are talking about. Are these some incidences only Sansa fan boys and girls know about?

Instead of trying to convince everyone that she's too dim to plot treason, she's plotting treason,

And again. I have literally no idea what you are talking about. Sansa is plotting treason? Did I miss something?

[Lord Damian]

Sansa, like all of her sibblings (including Robb- he won so many battles against great odds, it took a travesty / herresy against all the Gods to bring him down) has tremendous survival instincts in that they adapt, improvise etc.. She has been in self-preservation mode and succeeding very well at it. She is still unawares of what transpired that led to her father's betrayal and death (Littlefinger with the Gold Cloaks and later with Joffrey in the execution). The only way she could learn of Littlefinger's guilt is Sandor and Ser Barristan or even Cersei whom I think she is destined to meet again.

Sansa did some stupid things due to her arrogance growing up but she has been knocked down a few pegs and is starting to appreciate what she lost when she went to Kings Landing. She is certainly getting smarter and is doing what she can to stay alive and even thrive. I follow her story now, more than ever before as I find her more and more compelling.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

All the Stark children are pretty intelligent. But many on these boards don't seem to be able to discern between intelligence and wisdom. Plus, many times smart characters do things that are unwise because they have blnd spots, are young and inexperienced, or project their values onto others.

Robb letting the Riverlords leave because it was honorable to let the defend their homes. Or trusting Theon to be an envoy the Greyjoys because he saved Bran. Marrying Jeyne because it was honorable. Maybe he would have learned more with time, but it is time he never got. Tactically great in battle, but unwise in being a king and ruling. Smart, but inexperienced and a bit naive.

Jon Snow is similar, but a tad wiser. Being a bastard can have it's advantages. But while he sees that the NW and Wildling's must make common cause, and gives Stannis sound advice on Northmen, he still can't see his actions are alienating parts of the NW and the NW should take no part. This, despite the fact he knows what happened to Mormount.

The girls and Bran haven't had the same opportunity to rule, but all have shown they are clever, but still inexperienced. Arya is smart enough to figure out how to kill without seeming to (nice move with the coin) but not wise enough to avoid slipping back into Arya to kill someone on her list. She showed great survival skills after Yoren died and in Harrenhal.

Sansa also showed great survival skills in KL. She started out as the one with her head most full of drivel about nights and honor and her heart was filled with notions of being Queen to a handsome King. And the Lannister's played on that. Yes, they were able to dupe a sheltered 12 year old girl. But she is far from dumb. And unlike Robb, she's learned her lesson and has her head intact. She's starting to have the wisdom to go along with her innate intelligence. Still young, but getting more worldly and experience all the time.

Right now, I think she's made more forward progress than any of the others have. Yes, she had the furthest to go, as well. But right now, I think she's the most advanced thinker of any of the Stark children alive, and it past where Robb got as well.

To answer the OP, the Alayne chapter doesn't affect this opinion at all. Just confirms it. You could see where Sansa was headed for a while now with her ability to manipulate SweetRobin.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Sansa also showed great survival skills in KL.

She only showed she can control herself, be polite and and behave like a proper lady. Most of the time, she survived by repeating cheese courtesy phrases Septa Mordaine teach her. I never though she was stupid, but not bright, either.

Is it true she is showing some intelligence in new chapter, but that's far from being smart. It's more like regular social intelligence.

[The Holy Goat]

...

This is a rather good summary, I think.

Though I do have nitpicks: It was Edmure and the riverlords themselves who insisted on leaving Riverrun. Robb allowed it, which was perhaps not so wise... but as a young,r ecently crowned ruler who wasn't even from the region, how wise would it have been to stubbornly refuse to let them leave... it's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, I'd say.

Also, it seems to me that Jon was fully aware of the dissent amongst the NIght' Watch. HIs real failure was to realize how incredibly important this was, and the danger it posed.

I'd also consider Jon to be the most advanced thinker of the group, if one believe him to be alive. Sansa's probably number 2.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

The fact that she managed to survive as a hostage in Cersei's and Jofffreys hands show some skill.Not intelligence,but courage,courtesy,patience and adabtability.In the Vale it is the first time she has to use her mind because her beauty is unimportant (she is a bastard) and her noble birth has been canceled.

[Lady Winter Rose]

The fact that she managed to survive as a hostage in Cersei's and Jofffreys hands show some skill.Not intelligence,but courage,courtesy,patience and adabtability.In the Vale it is the first time she has to use her mind because her beauty is unimportant (she is a bastard) and her noble birth has been canceled.

Even Arya would survive being hostage to Joffrey and Cersei. Sansa and Arya were important to Cersei and she would never allowed girls to be killed. Ned was special story and not really related to Sansa situation.

[messem]

The fact that she managed to survive as a hostage in Cersei's and Jofffreys hands show some skill.Not intelligence,but courage,courtesy,patience and adabtability.In the Vale it is the first time she has to use her mind because her beauty is unimportant (she is a bastard) and her noble birth has been canceled.

Joff was a sociopath. Cersei knows Sansa's value.

[Frey Pie]

At first I think it raised my opinion of her but towards the end...well I think she's set for a fall. She's come far but looks like she's sprinting before she can run. And I really thought she'd be over the whole racing heart thing when she first sees a good looking man...

In any case before I read elios comment on this being the controversial chapter (which is ridiculous) I was under the impression that Sansa would attempt more moves on Harry, they'd go for a walk, and he'd take his "liberties"

[Wouter]

Jon Snow is similar, but a tad wiser. Being a bastard can have it's advantages. But while he sees that the NW and Wildling's must make common cause, and gives Stannis sound advice on Northmen, he still can't see his actions are alienating parts of the NW and the NW should take no part. This, despite the fact he knows what happened to Mormount.

I don't agree that the NW should not take part. It's custom and it has served the NW well for many years, but circumstances have changed: one of the warring kings has taken up residence at the wall, and the Others are preparing to invade. The duty of the NW is to defend the realm, and in order to do so they have to act. Without Stannis, the wall would have fallen in ASOS. As a result, Stannis is at the Wall and issuing demands. In that situation, the NW cannot stay neutral; they are involved already. And supporting Stannis over Boltons is a good decision; not only would it have been dishonorable to betray Stannis after he saved the NW, the Bolton's aren't even aware of the dangers at and beyond the Wall and are extremely selfish rulers. Stannis is far from perfect, but at least he is aware of the danger and willing to oppose it.

Same goes for his decision with the Wildlings: getting them on the Westerosi side of the Wall was a good move, in spite of the enmity between NW and them.

[Wouter]

At first I think it raised my opinion of her but towards the end...well I think she's set for a fall. She's come far but looks like she's sprinting before she can run. And I really thought she'd be over the whole racing heart thing when she first sees a good looking man...

Sansa is aware that being good-looking doesn't mean that he has to be desireable husband. She reminds herself that Joffrey was comely, a comely monster. And for that matter, that Tyrion was far kinder.

It was nice to read a chapter where Sansa was able to stretch her legs, literally and figuratively. However, also disturbing that she seems to be completely on board with LF, for the time being. In that regards, the new chapter reads similar to the chapter where Arya murdered the money-lender in Braavos: very competent, but quite possibly for the wrong cause.

[Roose on the Loose]

Well ... at least you are not biased.

I have literally no idea what you are talking about. Are these some incidences only Sansa fan boys and girls know about?

And again. I have literally no idea what you are talking about. Sansa is plotting treason? Did I miss something?

From the top.

I'm not as emotionally invested in Sansa as you might think. I find Arya, Asha and Dany more compelling as characters. But Sansa makes herself easy to underestimate, so I try not to do that. Furthermore, my analysis of the symbolism has always made me suspect that she will be QitN.

Barriston and Renly ride North to meet the King's entourage. Sansa says she's heard how wonderful Barry is. Renly challenges her to identify who he is. He's got some Baratheon symbol on him. Antler helm? And he looks like a younger, more put together version of Robert. Or something like that. It's not just her knowledge of heraldry, although that seems to be a huge life skill in this world. Early on she had a talent for stroking the lordly pride of the self-important. And that's where empires come from.

It's safe to say that LF is plotting treason. I say that because it's pretty much all he does. Sansa is having her creative input. I'm not sure what they're plotting to do. But I don't expect they're scheming to send Tommen a bouquet of roses. Of course she'll kill LF eventually. But for the time being, he amuses me. Besides, she's getting a million dollar education.

[messem]

Ah, okay

It's safe to say that LF is plotting treason. I say that because it's pretty much all he does. Sansa is having her creative input. I'm not sure what they're plotting to do. But I don't expect they're scheming to send Tommen a bouquet of roses. Of course she'll kill LF eventually. But for the time being, he amuses me. Besides, she's getting a million dollar education.

LF is plotting ........something. Only the Gods know what LF is up to. Sansa is wanted for a regicide she is innocent of. She isn't plotting treason although she certainly doesn't care if it hurts the Lannisters.

[Roose on the Loose]

This is a rather good summary, I think.

Though I do have nitpicks: It was Edmure and the riverlords themselves who insisted on leaving Riverrun. Robb allowed it, which was perhaps not so wise... but as a young,r ecently crowned ruler who wasn't even from the region, how wise would it have been to stubbornly refuse to let them leave... it's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, I'd say.

Also, it seems to me that Jon was fully aware of the dissent amongst the NIght' Watch. HIs real failure was to realize how incredibly important this was, and the danger it posed.

I'd also consider Jon to be the most advanced thinker of the group, if one believe him to be alive. Sansa's probably number 2.

It's kind of apples and oranges. They all have complimentary skills. I'm not sure Sansa would miss the brewing treachery all around like Jon did. Remember her suspicions in the new chapter about Lyn Corbrey.

By the way, the last harvest of autumn was militarily essential, and Robb mostly let it go to seed. A large host is worthless if you can't feed them.

[The Holy Goat]

It's kind of apples and oranges. They all have complimentary skills. I'm not sure Sansa would miss the brewing treachery all around like Jon did. Remember her suspicions in the new chapter about Lyn Corbrey.

By the way, the last harvest of autumn was militarily essential, and Robb mostly let it go to seed. A large host is worthless if you can't feed them.

What brewing treachery? The assassination attempt seem like spur of the moment thing cause by Jon's very last actions. Besides, Sansa immediately shelves her thought regarding Lyn Corbray, despite having questions about his loyalty.

The last harvest where? I fail to see how the loss of any of the harvests were Robb's fault.

Sansa is more intelligent than Jon & Robb because she is still alive.

Bran is the most intelligent Stark because he is basically a tree god.

By that logic Hodor must be smarter than Jon and Robb as well, and smarter than Tywin Lannister, Eddard STark, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, Balon Greyjoy, Drogo, Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, Jeor Mormont, Catelyn Tully, Beric Dondarrion, etc.

[Balerion the kitten]

If sansa had done one thing differently she would be long dead. She's been able to swallow her pride and survive under very dangerous situations. For that she's earned my respect. But I don't consider her intelligent, she's not dumb but she's not anything special. She thinks and acts on what other people have told her, this chapter didn't exactly change my opinion. When Harry didn't immediately warm to her like she expected because she had been told he would, sansa immediately went to LF asking him what she should do. Next time she see's him sansa does exactly what she's been told. Sansa's very easily manipulated, the minute she starts acting on her own thoughts and idea's then I'll reconsider

[Lord Damian]

If sansa had done one thing differently she would be long dead. She's been able to swallow her pride and survive under very dangerous situations. For that she's earned my respect. But I don't consider her intelligent, she's not dumb but she's not anything special. She thinks and acts on what other people have told her, this chapter didn't exactly change my opinion. When Harry didn't immediately warm to her like she expected because she had been told he would, sansa immediately went to LF asking him what she should do. Next time she see's him sansa does exactly what she's been told. Sansa's very easily manipulated, the minute she starts acting on her own thoughts and idea's then I'll reconsider

I agree with you, she has been a survivor under incredible circumstances. I think though, she is looking for a lifeline and for the moment, she thinks Harry the Heir is her only option. I think Littlefinger has something up his sleeve though. Harry the Heir is a ruze.

[Túrin the Turambar]

:agree:

Also, it seems to me that Jon was fully aware of the dissent amongst the NIght' Watch. HIs real failure was to realize how incredibly important this was, and the danger it posed.

I'd also consider Jon to be the most advanced thinker of the group, if one believe him to be alive. Sansa's probably number 2.

His real failure was putting his own feelings and emotions (pity and charity with Hardhome - vengeance with the Boltons) over the needs of the Watch. This was a test that he failed - and he and the Watch pay for it dearly.