Did the North *ever* stand a chance?

[Lost Umber]

Robb was also being being undermined by Roose as soon as the tide started to turn, and maybe before that. Robb made the mistake of entrusting a good portion of his forces to a man who couldn't be trusted.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think we have to back up a bit and ask what the North was actually trying to achieve here. You know, because in the famous phrase, war is politics by other means.

Could the North have fulfilled its original war aims? That is, removed King Joffrey, crushed the Lannisters, and received compensation for the execution of Ned? Certainly. Either Stannis or Renly would have been more than obliging.

Could the North have lasted as an independent Kingdom once the dust had settled? Hell no. Robb was doomed the moment he put on the crown.

[RainGhost]

Eddard's death was a big loss to the North too.

Well, yeah, that's kind of a given. If Joffrey hadn't had Ned killed then the North could have made a peace with the Iron Throne and the river lords would have had no choice but to accept it. After Ned's death, peace was no longer an option.

[SomeFremen]

Cat advised him not to send Theon and he ignored her. Edmure advised him not to kill Karstark and he ignored him. A few Lords advised him to join Renly or Stannis yet he went with the Greatjons advise and declared himself King.

I cant imagine that the Blackfish did not give any wise council and the Jeyne Westerling marriage was something he decided all on his own.

He had plenty of good advisers, including a magical Wolf that allowed him the drop on a Lannister army.

Indeed he got advices, good ones. But he ignored Cat's advice because he knew she had something against the Theon since forever and tought that she was subjective.

If he trusted his advisors he would have been better, but he didn't completely trust their judgement and in some cases he is not to blame for that.

Why I say he needed better advisors... is because they called him King of the North, but he was still a boy and they should have told him blunt when he was taking bad decisions. I mean Cat should have told him : " Boy !!! Don't you dare to marry now, can't you see how bad of a move that would be ? think about your duties !!! and listen to me coz I'm your mother and if you don't I will slap you ! ". Something like that.

I mean even Davos had more guts when arguing Stannis than Edmure and the northern lords.

[Olligarchy]

Boo :p

Minsc and Boo stand ready!

[The Marquis de Leech]

I mean Cat should have told him : " Boy !!! Don't you dare to marry now, can't you see how bad of a move that would be ? think about your duties !!! and listen to me coz I'm your mother and if you don't I will slap you ! ". Something like that.

And Robb would become King Mummy's Boy. He'd be a laughing stock, and he'd know that. That's why Catelyn had to be a bit more subtle with her suggestions.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

And Robb would become King Mummy's Boy. He'd be a laughing stock, and he'd know that. That's why Catelyn had to be a bit more subtle with her suggestions.

Especially since Robb was already married for months before Cat learned of it.

[devilish]

The North was in a magnificent position to win. Its lands were vast, its soldiers fierce and it had great familiar links with the Vale and the Riverlands. The opportunities were endless. Robb was unmarried which means he could have sealed great alliances with most of the big houses, he had no ambition to put his arse on the iron throne (ie possible alliance with the Baratheon brothers) and the Starks were renowned for their honor which means people were more likely to trust them as opposed to lets say the Lannisters. Also there was an army of desperate people at the other side of the wall which would have done anything to seek refuge to the 'right' side of the war. I wonder how Gregor would have felt if he had to clash swords with a giant charging on the back of a mammoth.

So seriously, if Robb's aim was to bring justice and save his own sisters back than he could have done it easily. FFS I sometimes wonder if that could have been achieved with the Lannisters itself. Think about it. What would Tywin choose

a- send Sansa back

b- dethrone Joffrey and sent his arse to the wall

c- possibly seal an alliance with one of the strongest families in Westeros.

or

a- lose resources and people by battling one of the strongest families in Westeros

b- possibly lose his heir to Casterly Rock

Things got complicated once he decided to yield to the oaf's advice to become King of the North. By doing so he practically excluded the chance of making powerful allies with the Baratheons and the Tyrells. Sending Theon back was a pretty retarded move. Even if Theon remained loyal to Robb, Balon could have still 'kept him safe' while completing his raids.

[devilish]

Robb was also being being undermined by Roose as soon as the tide started to turn, and maybe before that. Robb made the mistake of entrusting a good portion of his forces to a man who couldn't be trusted.

Roose is not Walder Frey. He spread blood during the first rebellion and he acted as a loyal banner man to Eddard for many many years asking nothing in exchange. There's a big different between being treacherous and refusing to go down with a sinking ship especially since the man in command was stubborn and equally green.

Would you risk your life and the lineage of a proud and ancient family for some boy who keeps on pissing off banner men and releasing enemies (either him or his mummy)? I wouldn't

[Blackfish Tully]

4. Edmure was the only sane man in that room. There is literally no circumstance where letting Tywin into the Westerlands is better than what Edmure did, i.e. kick Tywin's ass and force him back despite being outnumbered. If Tywin marches off to attack Stannis, GREAT! Stannis outnumbers Tywin, has better soldiers, and is a better commander. He'll smash Tywin's host in a great victory at no cost to Robb, then finish the King's Landing host and end the war. Furthermore, per Edmure's own words, Robb never even told him about this supposed plan. I think Robb and Blackfish just made the whole thing up to guilt Edmure into marrying Roslin. There's no way that they truly think that Tywin's 15,000 men defeated Stannis's 21,000, while the 50,000 Tyrell troops, perfect timing, and "ghost" did nothing.

There is no way in my mind that Brynden Tully would be dishonorable enough to make up a plan just to guilt his nephew into getting married. That is just way out of character for him.

They had a plan and if it was anything like the plans that we have seen out the Blackfish so far then it would have had a good chance of working . They made a mistake by not telling Edmure but that is understandable considering they were in the Westerlands when they came up with the plan and the thought that Edmure would go toe to toe with Tywin just did not seem possible.

.

[The Marquis de Leech]

There is no way in my mind that Brynden Tully would be dishonorable enough to make up a plan just to guilt his nephew into getting married. That is just way out of character for him.

They had a plan and if it was anything like the plans that we have seen out the Blackfish so far then it would have had a good chance of working . They made a mistake by not telling Edmure but that is understandable considering they were in the Westerlands when they came up with the plan and the thought that Edmure would go toe to toe with Tywin just did not seem possible.

If the entire plan hinged on Tywin being lured westwards, not telling Edmure was criminally stupid. So really, it depends on whether you consider the Blackfish (and Robb) stupid or dishonourable. Pick your poison.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

There is no way in my mind that Brynden Tully would be dishonorable enough to make up a plan just to guilt his nephew into getting married. That is just way out of character for him.

They had a plan and if it was anything like the plans that we have seen out the Blackfish so far then it would have had a good chance of working . They made a mistake by not telling Edmure but that is understandable considering they were in the Westerlands when they came up with the plan and the thought that Edmure would go toe to toe with Tywin just did not seem possible.

.

I'm sorry but they didn't have a plan as they had no way of knowing that the Tyrells would even join the Crown. That partnership was not even on Robbs radar, he says as much to his mother on the way to the Twins.

He and the Blackfish have no idea what the Tyrells (who were already out of the Reach and on the Blackwater) would have done, Edmure just seems to be the easy scapegoat. They needed someone to blame and as anyone who has worked in a large organization knows the shit trickles down. It is also notable how they dont lambast him infront of more experienced commanders such as Bracken and Blackwood who could pull them up on this 'plan'.

And if Edmure s supposed to stay inside the Riverrrun what is stopping a messenger from the Golden Tooth riding to inform Tywin that Stannis has left Srorm End and Tywin turning around or even a rider from Tarly. The Battle of the Fords lasted 3 days, we know from Jaime that Riverrun to the Golden Tooth is only 2 days ride.

There is still time for Tywin to make it to Kings Landing with or without Edmure acting.

[Lost Umber]

Roose is not Walder Frey. He spread blood during the first rebellion and he acted as a loyal banner man to Eddard for many many years asking nothing in exchange. There's a big different between being treacherous and refusing to go down with a sinking ship especially since the man in command was stubborn and equally green.

Would you risk your life and the lineage of a proud and ancient family for some boy who keeps on pissing off banner men and releasing enemies (either him or his mummy)? I wouldn't

I'd like to know more about the relationship between Eddard and Roose. According to Jon, Eddard never trusted him. And we know from Roose that he was intentionally keeping a low profile to avoid provoking Winterfell. I suspect he was about as loyal a bannerman as Barbrey Dustin.

Roose lost his first battle of the rebellion at the Green Fork and Lord Hornwood was killed. Not so coincidentally his son immediately takes over the Hornwood lands... I think Roose was undermining Robb from the start.

And he was totally treacherous once he thought that Robb was going to lose. I'm particularly impressed with his set up of the Duskendale fiasco.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'd like to know more about the relationship between Eddard and Roose. According to Jon, Eddard never trusted him. And we know from Roose that he was intentionally keeping a low profile to avoid provoking Winterfell. I suspect he was about as loyal a bannerman as Barbrey Dustin.

Roose lost his first battle of the rebellion at the Green Fork and Lord Hornwood was killed. Not so coincidentally his son immediately takes over the Hornwood lands... I think Roose was undermining Robb from the start.

And he was totally treacherous once he thought that Robb was going to lose. I'm particularly impressed with his set up of the Duskendale fiasco.

Roose was sent to lose on purpose. It was an unwinnable battle.

Keep in mind that the defeat at the Green Fork lost the lives of Lord Hornwood and Medger Cerwyn and the capture of Wylis Mandrly and Harrion Karstark while Robbs victory in the Battle of the Camps lead to the deaths of Lord Hornwood and Eddard and Torrhen Karstark. I really dont think you can say that it was deliberate on Rooses part.

[WTF's a Lommy]

The North most certainly had a chance but Robb became overconfident and thought he was above the law. If he had kept his promise with the Freys... and not beheaded Lord Karstark... and communicated his battle plans to Edmure Tully... and not trusted the irrational Balon Greyjoy to make a rational decision. Pretty much, if he would have just listened to his counselors, he could have won.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Roose was sent to lose on purpose. It was an unwinnable battle.

Keep in mind that the defeat at the Green Fork lost the lives of Lord Hornwood and Medger Cerwyn and the capture of Wylis Mandrly and Harrion Karstark while Robbs victory in the Battle of the Camps lead to the deaths of Lord Hornwood and Eddard and Torrhen Karstark. I really dont think you can say that it was deliberate on Rooses part.

Roose didn't have to fight a battle. All he had to do was stay close enough to Tywin to keep Tywin coming northward. That said, a battle is not unreasonable, and I don't think the overnight march was a horrible, horrible gamble.

That said, I think it's fairly obvious why Tyrion doesn't see a single Bolton banner anywhere on the field. GRRM basically says no one expects him to win a battle, but he looks great if he does. Well he also gets the chance to deliberately weaken his neighbors and rivals for influence and power in the North. He obviously couldn't get men like Hornwood and Cerwyn killed automatically, but he can put them in a position to die or be captured.

[The Wolves]

Could the North have lasted as an independent Kingdom once the dust had settled? Hell no. Robb was doomed the moment he put on the crown.

Why wouldn't the North not last as an independent kingdom?

It did fine all thoes thousands of years so why couldn't it have lasted?

[Lost Umber]

Roose was sent to lose on purpose. It was an unwinnable battle.

Keep in mind that the defeat at the Green Fork lost the lives of Lord Hornwood and Medger Cerwyn and the capture of Wylis Mandrly and Harrion Karstark while Robbs victory in the Battle of the Camps lead to the deaths of Lord Hornwood and Eddard and Torrhen Karstark. I really dont think you can say that it was deliberate on Rooses part.

whether Hornwood was deliberately put in danger or not, Roose immediately took advantage of his death in the north.

Cerwyn's and Manderly's are closely loyal to Starks as well... Did he put them in danger? well... notice that in each of his battles, the Bolton men come out ok.

[Lovely Lyanna]

In my mind the problems the North has the same ones the South had in the American Civil War. Eventually problems with supplies. If the men all out fighting, who is going farm and raise crops and livestock? Who is going to gather their harvest?

The great thing about Fantasy is that you can leave all the mundane dealing of everyday life behind such as food and water supplies and latrine duty. I mean they have all of these men marching around in the large armies, but you never hear about the logistics of taking care of these men. Whose feeding them? Where is the food coming from? Who is cooking the food? And of course after the food, where are the latrines? Who is digging them? Isn't this army sucking up all of the food and Winter is Coming.

It is not only Robb that is facing this issue. Dany and her army are facing the same issue. I cannot see her waisting her fighting men on this backbreaking drudgery, so I assume she uses those slaves she supposedly freed. I really cannot think their the life of a slave has improved at all. If you are a slave, then one moment you are taking care of the family that owns them and Dany pops in and frees you, so now you are taking care of a whole army. If they are not slaves, then how does she pay them? By taking care of them I guess, but who is taking care of who? She is now ordering them around to take care of herself, her army and themselves. That is an awfully lot of work. It seems that slavery would have been easier with the one family. Now Dany does give them the option to leave or follow her, but what choice do the really have. Where would they go to get food and shelter except back to their owners? It's not like she offered them 40 acres and a mule. Their choice is following her army and digging latrines or going back to their owners.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why wouldn't the North not last as an independent kingdom?

It did fine all thoes thousands of years so why couldn't it have lasted?

They did fine when it was multiple kingdoms. When its a United South against the North it is a different story.

whether Hornwood was deliberately put in danger or not, Roose immediately took advantage of his death in the north.

Cerwyn's and Manderly's are closely loyal to Starks as well... Did he put them in danger? well... notice that in each of his battles, the Bolton men come out ok.

Sure. There is always risk in war. Why would you risk your own men when you can risk others. That is not say that he tried to deliberately get them killed(at that point in the war) but knew that a battle of that nature would result in unavoidable casualties.

When Jaime, IIRC, talks of storming Riverrun in AFFC he talks of sending the Riverlords in first, then the Freys and the Lannister men. He is not trying to deliberatly kill the Rivermen but if there are to be casualties it may as well be from someone else's troops.