Police abuse thread 4: end police unions?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

We're 400. Continue.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

OAR,

I'm not claiming Unions are the "root" of the problem. I'm saying the protection they are offering their membership is part of the problem. They make it much more difficult to get at abusive officers. I'm asking if the abuses that appear to be rife in the US mean we should eliminate or curtail the priviledges of Police Unions.

[Lord of Oop North]

OAR,

FDR was absolutely in the wrong about his treatment of Japanese American Citizens of the US during WWII. May I ask how his action in that circumstanse is related to his position about the difficulty and utility of public sector unions?

And Police Unions are clearly part of the problem as AP's links demonstrate. They seek to protect many if not most members who engage in the abuses detailed in these threads. And then try to shame those who have the temerity to complain to draw attention to abuses offered by their membership.

While I'm no fan of police unions, do you not believe that it is the union's obligation to protect the rights of the worker that they represent? Should they leave that accused out in the cold? Does the accused worker not have a right to support and representation? It seems to me that the union should be standing up for the worker, regardless of the accusation, as that it is their core function.

As far as shaming others, that is clearly wrong, and should definitely cease.

[sologdin]

can't law enforcement unions be handled under landrum-griffin, if they assist in 1983 violations? might the union itself be a party defendant for 1983 purposes? (abolition of collective bargaining for law enforcement might not be narrowly tailored to the issue, maybe.)

[OnionAhaiReborn]

OAR,

I'm not claiming Unions are the "root" of the problem. I'm saying the protection they are offering their membership is part of the problem. They make it much more difficult to get at abusive officers. I'm asking if the abuses that appear to be rife in the US mean we should eliminate or curtail the priviledges of Police Unions.

And I'm saying if we have examples of major abuses in non-union environments, as well as examples of cops being held accountable in union environments- and we do have both- then blaming unions is looking in the wrong area, shittiness of certain union behaviors notwithstanding.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sologdin,

can't law enforcement unions be handled under landrum-griffin, if they assist in 1983 violations? might the union itself be a party defendant for 1983 purposes? (abolition of collective bargaining for law enforcement might not be narrowly tailored to the issue, maybe.)

I like that idea. As I said above curtailing may be more appropriate.

[Relic]

While I'm no fan of police unions, do you not believe that it is the union's obligation to protect the rights of the worker that they represent? Should they leave that accused out in the cold? Does the accused worker not have a right to support and representation? It seems to me that the union should be standing up for the worker, regardless of the accusation, as that it is their core function.

As far as shaming others, that is clearly wrong, and should definitely cease.

I'm a huge fan of Unions. Most workers should have the right to group together and protect one another from unfair business practices and treatment. However, when it comes to the Police, I really don't think that an institution with a mandate to "Serve and Protect" the public should be able to protect itself form the public's scrutiny, or interfere with investigations into how it deals with and handles said public.

[aceluby]

There's something inherently different about police unions. These are literally jack booted govt thugs protected by union bosses with real power. I find it ironic that these unions, though fitting every description of corruption, is rarely touched during union busting.

[Arakan]

Ser Scot with a classic Ser Scot line of reasoning ;). Don't get me wrong, I think he has valid points but IMHO it's de facto completely besides the REALLY important point which is:

A white police officer murders a black man in cold blood.

I would like to understand WHY this can happen and WHAT has to be changed to stop this.

Having to read extremely sophisticated arguments about unions is actually not what I would have expected...

It has a touch of "we want to build the biggest Nuclear Power Plant in the world but we will argue almost exclusively about how many parking lot should be planned - 200 or 250?"

Ah almost forgot...apparently the PO only had about 9 weeks of training...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Arakan,

How would you propose we begin to address the problem of police abuse of power?

[Crazydog7]

Speaking as a resident Crazydog’s rule of life #1 when South Carolina makes the national news its never for anything good.

There is reason to be encouraged this time. Everyone in town I have talked to over the last few days and I live five miles from where the incident occurred is absolutely horrified by this. Not just the African American people but old as fuck white people who most of the time when this happens spout the usual propaganda. Thank God for that person who shot the video I’m sorry for the officer that he will probably be going to a prison filled with black people but I’m not that sorry.

[Spring Bass]

Arakan,

How would you propose we begin to address the problem of police abuse of power?

1. Police cameras must always be on in dealing with people unless the person specifically declines their right to have the encounter filmed.

2. Officers recruited later, preferably after a bachelor's degree. They tend to have much fewer disciplinary issues.

3. Misconduct complaints go before both a civilian review board and internal review, and both have the power to suspend the officer from active duty.

4. Better police chiefs committed to a program of minimizing complaints and working well with the community "community policing" style.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Arakan,

How would you propose we begin to address the problem of police abuse of power?

I'm not Arakan, but living in the same state my idea would be to improve police training. That particular guy had nine weeks training. Is that common in the US?

Here in Germany, cops for the middle grade have to have a decent education, comparable to the high school, before being sent to the police academy for two and a half years.

Upper grade got to have the equivalent of a college degree, befory studying (and yes, that is basically university) for three years.

The former is currently on it's way out.

Cops aren't as quick to do something stupid if they got human rights and how to deescalate situations drilled into them for years. Instead of the eight hours I've seen mentioned in the paper for the shooter.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Training might help but unless it is coupled with serious consequences for abuse of power I fear it will not be enough.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Of course it won't be enough. Despite the training, we've got some problems as well. But it helps a long way.

[Summah]

Ser Scot with a classic Ser Scot line of reasoning ;). Don't get me wrong, I think he has valid points but IMHO it's de facto completely besides the REALLY important point which is:

A white police officer murders a black man in cold blood.

I would like to understand WHY this can happen and WHAT has to be changed to stop this.

Having to read extremely sophisticated arguments about unions is actually not what I would have expected...

It has a touch of "we want to build the biggest Nuclear Power Plant in the world but we will argue almost exclusively about how many parking lot should be planned - 200 or 250?"

Ah almost forgot...apparently the PO only had about 9 weeks of training...

There are many factors involved here. But a good place to start would be with the bias and inequality pervasive at all levels here (and not just racism, also classism, ableism etc), and which starts by preschool age, maybe younger. The U.S. needs, as Ta-Nehsi Coates would call it, a reckoning. Those benefiting from this inequality need to seriously see and examine how it improves lives, most likely including their own, and realize that the only just thing to do is to advocate for greater equality and refuse to take advantage of the privilege when offered in blatant ways. Specifically in terms of the racism involved in the criminal justice system, we have the new Jim Crow: prison, the war on drugs, things like "three strikes laws" all disproportionately affect black people and the differences in treatment due to racial bias starts in preschool. All of this and more contribute to the implicit bias pervasive here: the bias that allows the status quo filled with the injustice of the criminal justice system; the bloated system fueled by the war on drugs, massive amounts of people in prison serving long sentences for non-violent crimes and the need for growth in the system due to profit mofive creates a system with gifts from the military, becoming more militarized where the police learn to view (certain groups of) citizens as potential criminals as hostiles allowing for further dehumanizations of those already viewed as less than. So, a reckoning, no it doesn't address all the problems, it doesn't guarantee change, but many people will be made uncomfortable by what they see and will, I hope, want to change things and a reckoning does address many of the issues and if it happened would cause a much change that went much further than what may appear to be the face value of what is changing.

[Arakan]

What PLF and BBE said.

If those things got implemented, this would be a very big step in the right direction.

Obviously to change someone's attitude (racism, chauvinism, classism) cannot be ordered but sure as hell you can establish a system of checks and balances, coupled with better training and education, to minimize the effects of aformentioned attitudes.

BBE and myself are coming from a state (Bavaria) which has been notorious for police brutality in the past (especially against leftists/greens you name it). The only viable countermeasure (as a first step) is transparancy and rising awareness that their might be a systemic problem.

Just sentencing that PO and calling him a bad apple is putting the head in the sand.

ETA

Summah: great post, much appreciated.

[DanteGabriel]

Have people seen the stories about how Slager (the murderous cop who shot Walter Scott in the back as he ran) had a prior excessive force complaint and was exonerated by his department?

On the porch was Patrolman Michael Thomas Slager, the officer now charged in the shooting death of Walter Lamer Scott, which was captured in dramatic cellphone footage by a bystander Saturday.

Givens, who was clad only in a T-shirt and boxer shorts, cracked open his door and asked what the officer wanted.

"He said he wanted to come in but didn't say why," said Givens, now 33. "He never said who he was looking for."

Then, without warning, Slager pushed in the door, he said.

"Come outside or I'll tase you," he quoted the officer as saying, adding: "I didn't want that to happen to me, so I raised my arms over my head, and when I did, he tased me in my stomach anyway."

Givens said the pain from the stun gun was so intense that he dropped to the floor and began calling for his mother, who also was in the home. At that point, he said another police officer came into the house and they dragged him outside and threw him to the ground. He was handcuffed and put in a squad car.

Though initially accused of resisting the officers, Givens was later released without charge.

Asked about the 2013 incident on Wednesday, North Charleston police spokesman Spencer Pryor said the department plans to review the case to see whether its decision to exonerate Slager was correct. Pryor said he had no timetable for the review.

...

It turned out that Givens' arrest was a case of mistaken identity. Officers had been looking for his brother, Matthew Givens, whose ex-girlfriend had reported that he came into her bedroom uninvited, then left when she screamed and called 911.

The woman, Maleah Kiara Brown, told The AP on Wednesday that she and a friend had gone to the Givens home with the officers and were sitting outside when Slager knocked on the door. The second officer had gone around to the back of the house.

She had provided the officers with a detailed description of her ex-boyfriend, Matthew Givens, who is about 5 feet, 5 inches tall. Mario Givens stands well over 6 feet.

"He looked nothing like the description I gave the officers," Brown said. "He asked the officer why he was at the house. He did it nicely. The police officer said he wanted him to step outside. Then he asked, 'Why, why do you want me to step outside?' Then the officer barged inside and grabbed him."

...

The next day, an angry Mario Givens went downtown to police headquarters and filed a formal complaint. He and his mother say several neighbors who witnessed what happened on the family's front lawn also contacted the police, though they say officers refused to take their statements.

The incident report filed by Slager and the other officer, Maurice Huggins, provides a very different version of events. In the report, obtained by The AP through a public-records request, Slager wrote that he could not see one of Givens' hands and feared he might be holding a weapon. He wrote that he observed sweat on Givens' shirt, which he perceived as evidence that he could have run from Brown's home, and then ordered him to exit several times.

When Givens didn't comply, Slager said he entered the home to prevent him from fleeing and was then forced to use his stun gun when Givens struggled with him. The officers' report describes the Givens brothers as looking "just alike."

After Mario Givens filed his complaint, the department opened an internal investigation. A brief report in Slager's personnel file says a senior officer was assigned to investigate. After a couple of weeks, the case was closed with a notation that Slager was "exonerated."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/michael-clager-excessive-force-complaint

Power-tripping cops abuse authority, rough up a black man with no good cause (bonus points for not being able to tell two black men apart despite a 7-inch height difference), file a fake police report to cover their tracks, and get exonerated by department's own investigation. But I am sure this is just an isolated incident, one bad cop doesn't represent the whole force, etc etc.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DG,

I'm curious to see if there iw anyone, at this point, who would be willing to argue that there aren't systemic problems with police abuse of power in the US.

[DanteGabriel]

DG,

I'm curious to see if there iw anyone, at this point, who would be willing to argue that there aren't systemic problems with police abuse of power in the US.

As far as I know, police abuse incidents are not more common than they were when Sturn et al were making the "isolated actors" arguments, so the only real difference would be that we have more video evidence that can't be argued away or minimized by America's assumption that a black man who acts out or threatens someone deserves execution. So maybe those who have, in the past, argued that the problem is isolated and not pervasive, can sit back and try and think of how bad it's been in all these decades and years when we didn't have cameraphones revealing the extent of the problem.