why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[dannyk65]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Each minute spent on a LSH would mean a minute NOT spent on the pointless, waste of screentime and forced "love story" between Missendai and Grey Worm. I am neutral with my lukewarm love of LSH, but I'd rather her than that sop story.

Well said

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, dannyk65 said:

Well said

Thank You

This particular TV storyline is a major one of many pet peeves of mine.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Each minute spent on a LSH would mean a minute NOT spent on the pointless, waste of screentime and forced "love story" between Missendai and Grey Worm. I am neutral with my lukewarm love of LSH, but I'd rather her than that sop story.

I've got no idea why the did the Missendai searches for Grey Worms' worm plot, it was the second most dreadful part of last season. But it didn't really take up very much space. 

LSH this season makes more sense than at any other time in the series so far, so i'm almost convinced its going to happen in some form. Even though I think the plot is cheap and stupid.

[Lautrec]

I really don't get the hate for the Missandei/Grey Worm subplot, which is always touted out as some sort of obvious example of something which should be removed and replaced with something like LSH, or fAegon. It takes, what, maybe not even 7 minutes of screentime? Hardly worth excising and putting in a whole other arc or character set instead. It gives secondary characters some depth and flavour, I hardly see the problem. 

LSH was the first obvious crack in the foundations of the novels, a lite-sharkjump, if you will, for me. I really, really, really hope they don't bring Catelyn back. The Brotherhood will definitely appear in some form since Walder Frey is back, but I just don't see them doing LSH. It would be an even dumber plotpoint in the show, since at least in the books its in the same book as RW, so you get to it maybe a couple of days after reading the RW, where at this point it would be 3 years since S03E09 aired. 

[Hippocras]

4 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

I really don't get the hate for the Missandei/Grey Worm subplot, which is always touted out as some sort of obvious example of something which should be removed and replaced with something like LSH, or fAegon. It takes, what, maybe not even 7 minutes of screentime? Hardly worth excising and putting in a whole other arc or character set instead. It gives secondary characters some depth and flavour, I hardly see the problem. 

Agreed. Missandei and Grey Worm is such a non-issue.

Furthermore it is quite likely that it is being used to simplify book aspects of these two characters and will influence their behaviour in some meaningful way now that they are helping Tyrion run Meereen.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

46 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Agreed. Missandei and Grey Worm is such a non-issue.

Furthermore it is quite likely that it is being used to simplify book aspects of these two characters and will influence their behaviour in some meaningful way now that they are helping Tyrion run Meereen.

Missandei and Grey Worm will probably be helping Tyrion run Meereen at some point in the books too. While I don't like this element of the show, it seems to really be about giving some depth to two under developed characters, especially Grey Worm. 

[Ruhail]

I like it because, it shows us that resserections of this nature are costly and damaging to whom it would be used on.

[kimim]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Agreed. Missandei and Grey Worm is such a non-issue.

Furthermore it is quite likely that it is being used to simplify book aspects of these two characters and will influence their behaviour in some meaningful way now that they are helping Tyrion run Meereen.

Subjective on my part, but novel Meereen was, for me, very weak. The chapters were repetitive, povs limited to Westerosi ex-pats, which in turn made the battle for the region pointless. I think Grey Worm-Missandei is an attempt to include a "native" story, make us care about people who live in the region. The beheading of Mossador was the same thing, plus a try at complicating matters beyond the novel's slave=victim=good and slaver=victimizer=bad. I think that's one reason why they hurried Tyrion over to Meereen. They needed someone other than Dany to make the audience care.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

20 minutes ago, kimim said:

Subjective on my part, but novel Meereen was, for me, very weak. The chapters were repetitive, povs limited to Westerosi ex-pats, which in turn made the battle for the region pointless. I think Grey Worm-Missandei is an attempt to include a "native" story, make us care about people who live in the region. The beheading of Mossador was the same thing, plus a try at complicating matters beyond the novel's slave=victim=good and slaver=victimizer=bad. I think that's one reason why they hurried Tyrion over to Meereen. They needed someone other than Dany to make the audience care.

I agree the Meereen part of the books is pretty weak, and DULL. I don't think the show version is much of an improvement really, but I can see the reasons why they did the things they did. Show version is certainly a much more condensed version of what happens in the books, although it does miss out on some of the dilemmas that Dany goes through and her motivation throughout the storyline. 

They certainly could have done better showing the 'native' story, making the inner workings of the city a little more complex. Instead they focussed on Grey Worms lovelife, which I don't think was the best option. 

I think also the lack of a 'Battle of Meereen' means that Tyrion needed to be somewhere by the end of the season, and getting him to meet Dany was something I think was an improvement on what we got in the book.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Lautrec said:

I really don't get the hate for the Missandei/Grey Worm subplot, which is always touted out as some sort of obvious example of something which should be removed and replaced with something like LSH, or fAegon. It takes, what, maybe not even 7 minutes of screentime? Hardly worth excising and putting in a whole other arc or character set instead. It gives secondary characters some depth and flavour, I hardly see the problem. 

LSH was the first obvious crack in the foundations of the novels, a lite-sharkjump, if you will, for me. I really, really, really hope they don't bring Catelyn back. The Brotherhood will definitely appear in some form since Walder Frey is back, but I just don't see them doing LSH. It would be an even dumber plotpoint in the show, since at least in the books its in the same book as RW, so you get to it maybe a couple of days after reading the RW, where at this point it would be 3 years since S03E09 aired. 

 

31 minutes ago, kimim said:

Subjective on my part, but novel Meereen was, for me, very weak. The chapters were repetitive, povs limited to Westerosi ex-pats, which in turn made the battle for the region pointless. I think Grey Worm-Missandei is an attempt to include a "native" story, make us care about people who live in the region. The beheading of Mossador was the same thing, plus a try at complicating matters beyond the novel's slave=victim=good and slaver=victimizer=bad. I think that's one reason why they hurried Tyrion over to Meereen. They needed someone other than Dany to make the audience care.

 

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Agreed. Missandei and Grey Worm is such a non-issue.

Furthermore it is quite likely that it is being used to simplify book aspects of these two characters and will influence their behaviour in some meaningful way now that they are helping Tyrion run Meereen.

Missendai and Grey Worm don't make sense for many reasons. One, and probably the most important, is running time. There is not enough of it and the showrunners and producers make that known every season, so to invent and add a fake "love" story that has nothing to do with the main series, main characters or even the basic "game of thrones" makes zero sense. It is a waste of screen time. D&D chose to cut soooo many interesting characters and fantasy elements of this fantasy series that inventing a side plot like this (about 11 minutes worth according to youtube searches) is just poor planning and thinly veiled fan service.

Second, yes, it's a change from the books which is not the issue because sometimes that happens. Both are secondary characters that have little interaction with each other. What is irritating is the fact that they aged up Missendai and slightly aged down Grey Worm so the biggest event that can happen is to have the actress stand full frontal for a few long seconds while GW ogles her??? Seriously, that is a relationship that does not have a real long-term chance of working and this is isn't daytime drama where we need the tension of the "will they or won't they" guessing game.

I never said I wanted LSH, just that she would make more sense if she did show up... but I don't think she will and I kinda don't want to see her at this point in the show because her time has passed. Her showing up now, while she is drastically different than Jon, is too close to what Jon is going through right now and we don't need a repeat that close to each other.

"I think that's one reason why they hurried Tyrion over to Meereen. They needed someone other than Dany to make the audience care." Sorry, but if they have to hurry a heavily plot-armored character to the other side of the world just to make people care about that side... then they have not been doing things right.

I think Grey Worm-Missandei is an attempt to include a "native" story, Neither Missandai or GW are native to Meereen in the manner of "race" or ethnicity or culture. Dany is as "native" as they are, if not more so, because she has lived in Essos her entire life. She has done way more traveling throughout Essos than the both of them as well. If they wanted to show a native side of Meereen, then the showrunners should not have cut the abundant native people who are actually in the story.

Trust me, Meereen was dull for me in the books. They are chapters that I was often tempted to skip, but the show just over simplified that arc and made it flat... and Dany was way too "try hard".

[kimim]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"I think that's one reason why they hurried Tyrion over to Meereen. They needed someone other than Dany to make the audience care." Sorry, but if they have to hurry a heavily plot-armored character to the other side of the world just to make people care about that side... then they have not been doing things right.

I think Grey Worm-Missandei is an attempt to include a "native" story, Neither Missandai or GW are native to Meereen in the manner of "race" or ethnicity or culture. Dany is as "native" as they are, if not more so, because she has lived in Essos her entire life. She has done way more traveling throughout Essos than the both of them as well. If they wanted to show a native side of Meereen, then the showrunners should not have cut the abundant native people who are actually in the story.

Trust me, Meereen was dull for me in the books. They are chapters that I was often tempted to skip, but the show just over simplified that arc and made it flat... and Dany was way too "try hard".

Novel Tyrion is heading to Meereen, the way his show counterpart was. Difference is, the show got him there, a good thing given how horrifyingly boring Meereen is, both in novels and on show.

Grey Worm and Missandei are "native" in the sense that they have spent their lives on SB as slaves; same, I'll guess, for Mossador. By contrast, Dany is a conqueror who is using SB as a classroom to prepare her for Westeros, her real realm. She doesn't belong there any more than Arya belongs with Faceless Men, or Sansa belongs with LF. As far as "abundant native people," where are they? Surely you can't mean the grotesqueries that pass as the army of Yunkai? Those simply underline the villain-victim divisions of Meereen, which make the place so boring to read about. Yeah, slavery is bad. What a shockingly controversial theme that is.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

1) Novel Tyrion is heading to Meereen, the way his show counterpart was. Difference is, the show got him there, a good thing given how horrifyingly boring Meereen is, both in novels and on show.

2a) Grey Worm and Missandei are "native" in the sense that they have spent their lives on SB as slaves; same, I'll guess, for Mossador. 2c) By contrast, Dany is a conqueror who is using SB as a classroom to prepare her for Westeros, her real realm. She doesn't belong there any more than Arya belongs with Faceless Men, or Sansa belongs with LF. 2b) As far as "abundant native people," where are they? Surely you can't mean the grotesqueries that pass as the army of Yunkai? Those simply underline the villain-victim divisions of Meereen, which make the place so boring to read about. Yeah, slavery is bad. What a shockingly controversial theme that is.

1) I think we actually agree on this point, truly. I am curious to see the point in making Tyrion and Dany meet, though, other than the showrunners wanted it to happen and now that Dany has flown off and will probably spend a bit of time with the Dothraki again. I will admit, when Varys popped up at the end, my eyes just about hit the floor they rolled so hard. Sorry, but it was very predictable. But like I said, we will have to wait and see. *side note: Did we get an explanation of why Varys is now on Dany's side after trying to have her killed?

2a) Being a slave in one region does not make you native or able to fully relate to slaves in other regions because there are still culture differences, and Meereen is not only salves. Slaves in one town, like Asatpor, are treated absolutely horribly while ones on Meereen may not have it as bad. There were some ex-slaves that asked to have their old jobs back because if anything else, they were treated close to family and were fed, clothed and housed. Dany's life was cushy off more than on so far in her 14 years. She started this story as a sex slave and before that homeless, shoe-less and hungry for years (tv and book). I agree that Dany does not belong there anymore than the other you mentioned and where they are. Honestly, I do.

2b) That's what I am asking- where are they? No, not the Yunkai or the grotesqueries. They too are not native to Meereen. In the book Dany is surrounded by a gaggle of native people: leaders of noble houses, the graces, shavepates, other locals, noble cupbearers, Brazen Beasts. Good guys or bad guys, we never saw any of them on tv besides Hizdar and he was reduced to a groveling idiot. Well, there may have been a few noble men in the one dungeon scene where Dany so "wisely" fed one to her dragons, but they did not have lines or names or anything besides being a bad nobleman.

Mossador is actually Missandei's brother, but instead of using that in the show for true emotional connection, we get no connection to him and Missendai naked. It sounds very odd to me to hear me complain about naked people because I assure you I am not prude when it comes to that, but it has to make a point and it can't be done just to "hold my attention" 'cuz that is insulting as a viewer. And I'll say it again... it has no room in a political, fantasy epic that has limited time on tv. This is actually the same thing that people complain about with Outlander... too much "lovey-dovey" stuff.

2c) I think it is grossly arrogant to take over a city, turn it on it's head and leave it in shambles just because you are practicing to be a "savior" on a whole other continent (book and tv). Using people like that in your own personal classroom situation is just as bad as being a slaver yourself. Girlfriend needs to take a good, long look in a mirror.

[kimim]

1 and 2C) I think we agree, yes!!! A miracle indeed.

1 further: Again, very subjective: The first three novels had a pretty tight plot to work with. That plot is done and gone by the time of Dance, and characters are strewn about the globe. The show tries to bring them together, for which I can't blame it, as the scattered nature of what passed for plot in Dance annoyed the hell out of me. So the show Brienne meets Arya, then meets Sansa, then moves north, and meets Stannis, instead of heading in the wrong direction. Tyrion is heading to Meereen, and gets there, so Dany and Tyrion meet. Varys never made sense to me, whomever he is supporting--fAegon makes no more sense than Dany, but that's a long story which doesn't belong here. In putting Tyrion and Varys in Meereen while Dany is off with the Dothraki, the show is attempting to integrate Dany's Essosi adventures into the "game" plot. Not a bad idea; certainly better than Quentyn, imo. Whether it succeeds or not is another question.

2b) I've reread the novels four times. I can remember the names of five people from SB: Missandei, Grey Worm, Hizdahr, Shavepate, and Green Grace. That's it. Of these, the only one that has promise, if developed, is Shavepate, as he might be plotting something, and he doesn't fall into the easy bad-good guy dichotomy that plagues Martin's SB. btw Yunkai is a part of SB. Those slavers with their laughably inept and grotesque armies are a part of SB. Same with Missandei: Dany meets her in Astapor, a part of SB, where she has been a slave most of her life.  Ditto for Grey Worm.

Mossador had promise, in that he complicated everything, politically. His relationship to Missandei is not important. What he shows is that the slaves can think on their own, and act on their own. This is pretty important, as in the novels, the slaves are just poor victims who worship Dany. Mossador doesn't worship Dany, has his own goals, can think on his own. When Dany beheads him, we see the same thing about the rest of the slaves. No, they're not all helpless worshipers of Dany. They can turn against her. imo what the show did with Mossador was one of the few bright spots in its Meereen bits.

As far as Missandei's topless bits...I don't see a problem.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, kimim said:

1 and 2C) I think we agree, yes!!! A miracle indeed.

Two out of three ain't bad. I'll take it 

[Damorian]

Imagine the shitstorm if the trailer featured a few quick cuts of Freys in their distinctive hats swinging from some misty tree boughs with a hooded figure somewhere in the frame ...

Even then, I'm probably so used to being disappointed on the Stoneheart front, I think I'd still be steeling myself for another bait-and-switch, with either a non or semi-LSH scenario other than Michelle ... be that Sansa, another actress, or just the work of the rogue BWB without her.

It's weird how this season is the FIRST incoming season with all the supporting Frey/BWB/Brienne & Jaime at Riverrun context firmly in place, yet we've been so burned by no-shows to this point, it's also the season we least expect to see her. Which makes no sense, when based on nothing more than book chronology, we were much more certain she'd appear towards the end of S4, for example, despite it being known no wider Frey/BWB stuff had been filmed. So, we were, what? - hoping for some clandestine little insert filmed cloak & dagger in Nothern Ire. to pop up at the end?

Guess we're STILL hoping for that now (albeit, thankfully for the last of 4 yrs. running ) ~ but with the added intrigue that the supporting stuff, this time, is in. Even a possible Merrett Frey casting call, FFS.

We can argue 'til the cows come home on the timeframe of her first appearance in the epilogue of ASOS having passed; unless they tie in her resurrection to Jon's, thematically, as a cautionary counterpoint of some kind, then regrettably, her time probably has too. But S6 IS the season of the bulk of her corresponding book stuff in the Riverlands, whether you like that fact or not ...

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Quote

Imagine the shitstorm if the trailer featured a few quick cuts of Freys in their distinctive hats swinging from some misty tree boughs with a hooded figure somewhere in the frame ... 

Its interesting, in some ways this would be the biggest reveal of the season, if not for the 'Jon resurrection' reveal. But Jon coming back is going to be the big bang and will probably happen early. If LS happens in some ways it would be hugely anti climatic after you've spent all that time and energy on seeing Jon brought back to life. It would be very difficult to establish LS as a credible character after that. 

The other suggestion, that LS is somehow transferred to Sansa's character, seems a little baseless. She isn't at the point where that could really happen to her, as a character nor where she fits into other storylines. That she ends up back at Winterfell meeting Ramsey at some point basically rules her out as she wouldn't have time to do both.

Also Arya as a LS character is possible, as she is coming back to westeros, but I doubt hanging would be her choice of assasination.

LS clearly serves a function in the story outside of just revenge on the Freys, well thats my hope anyway. She affects Jamie and Brienne in some way, and its kind of hard to see how Briennes storyline can continue as it does in the books in the same manner without LS.

This has been a bit of a brainfart, but basically even with all the pieces set up for her to come back, I'm still finding it quite hard to invisage LS's appearance this season.

[The Fattest Leech]

18 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its interesting, in some ways this would be the biggest reveal of the season, if not for the 'Jon resurrection' reveal. But Jon coming back is going to be the big bang and will probably happen early. If LS happens in some ways it would be hugely anti climatic after you've spent all that time and energy on seeing Jon brought back to life. It would be very difficult to establish LS as a credible character after that. 

The other suggestion, that LS is somehow transferred to Sansa's character, seems a little baseless. She isn't at the point where that could really happen to her, as a character nor where she fits into other storylines. That she ends up back at Winterfell meeting Ramsey at some point basically rules her out as she wouldn't have time to do both.

~snipped~

I agree that it would be a big reveal, but alas, I think LSH's time is past. I think, just you said, it would be hugely anti-climactic. Would TV only people really even care about her? TV only people would not have nearly enough info or story on her to link her in as anything more than just another shock- and Lady Stoneheart deserves more than that.

I do, however, see how D&D could rearrange the two storylines and merge LSH with new Sansa. There were some visual hints with Sansa'a wardrobe last season and they have certainly merged two book characters in to one TV character just about every season. Hizdahr on TV was a blend of book Hiz and Quentyn just off the top of my head. Sophie Turner seems to be dropping hints that the idea of new Sansa as a LSH-type is not that far of a concept. The rearrange would be Sansa-heart taking revenge in Winterfell or with the Boltons instead of out in the woods with the BWB. Sansa's storyline has already diverged completely from the books so it is possible they are still going with it.

"She, this season, really commands the respect that she deserves and she grabs hold of it and she runs with it and it’s really good.”

A link to Sophie's article...

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/30/game-thrones-season-6-sophie-turner-sansa

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The main reason I don't think that they will merge LS with Sansa is that Sansa has her own story which I think they will plough ahead with.

The primary reason they merged her with Jeyne last season was that Sansa's book story left her drifting about, away from the story. My feeling is that now they have pushed her around into the Northern storyline ahead of time compared to the books, but she is pretty much at the place she will end up in the books anyway. So whatever GRRM had planned for her will probably occur from this point. Its not a case of her literally being able to transplant herself onto other peoples characters. 

[Hippocras]

51 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its interesting, in some ways this would be the biggest reveal of the season, if not for the 'Jon resurrection' reveal. But Jon coming back is going to be the big bang and will probably happen early. If LS happens in some ways it would be hugely anti climatic after you've spent all that time and energy on seeing Jon brought back to life. It would be very difficult to establish LS as a credible character after that. 

The other suggestion, that LS is somehow transferred to Sansa's character, seems a little baseless. She isn't at the point where that could really happen to her, as a character nor where she fits into other storylines. That she ends up back at Winterfell meeting Ramsey at some point basically rules her out as she wouldn't have time to do both.

Also Arya as a LS character is possible, as she is coming back to westeros, but I doubt hanging would be her choice of assasination.

LS clearly serves a function in the story outside of just revenge on the Freys, well thats my hope anyway. She affects Jamie and Brienne in some way, and its kind of hard to see how Briennes storyline can continue as it does in the books in the same manner without LS.

This has been a bit of a brainfart, but basically even with all the pieces set up for her to come back, I'm still finding it quite hard to invisage LS's appearance this season.

I think she will be in season 6, and we will see her before Jon is "reborn". It makes zero sense to do it later. Part of the point of reserving her for season 6 would be to create a resurrection narative for the season, and the reason for doing that in season 6 and not earlier is Jon. All of the others: Sandor, Gregor, Stoneheart, could easily have been brought back or shown more earlier, except for Jon.

I could actually see season 6 starting off with a creepy scene something like the Merrett Frey chapter.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

A 'Resurrection theme' for the season could easily backfire I think. It could turn into a 'nobody can die, so you don't have to worry about anything theme', each resurrection lessening the power of the next one.