Orange is the New Black

[HairBearHero]

It's the biggest misstep in the series. If they were going to do this scene in the way they did for the (potentially sound) reasons you outline, then they had to set it up first. That they didn't, indicates to me that they were more concerned with keeping the established characters out of the attack.

Fair point. I don't read it quite as damningly as you do, but agree the setup could/should have been done better.

I'm kinda bothered by the number of people expressing sympathy for Morello and none for Christopher. The guy did nothing to justify a beat down, she tried to blow up his fiancee after she had stalked him following a single date. I can't believe I'm the one defending the guy here. I do feel sympathy for Morello because she's clearly not in a healthy place, but I didn't think we were supposed to be thinking "haha Christopher got what he deserved" in that scene, I thought it was meant to be another demonstration of how dangerous she is - that she will ensnare someone clearly violent and send him to take revenge on the guy that spurned her. Yes I know Christopher was mean when he came to visit her, but why the fuck shouldn't he be?

Yeah, I don't really get how people can think Christopher is possibly in the wrong here. He was mean to her when he visited because this is a woman who has stalked him to the point of attempting to blow his fiancee up out of jealousy and he suspects she's been in his house. That whole scene was tragic and creepy as fuck even as somebody who's not been stalked - I can't imagine the terror he'd feel when he found the bath run and the wedding dress in disarray. I'll let some heightened emotions slide. Morello's dangerously insane and needs help, but she's not the victim here...

The goon wiping his feet on the doormat was funny though :D

[Theda Baratheon]

Thank you, exactly this.

On the Piper thing, I felt that that much contraband in the bunk area of an inmate getting out in two days stretches credibility to the point the guards would realise it was a setup. No one would be that stupid. Piper also has no need for the money when she gets out, despite what she claims to Stella, she's simply power tripping and that's it.

I'm kinda bothered by the number of people expressing sympathy for Morello and none for Christopher. The guy did nothing to justify a beat down, she tried to blow up his fiancee after she had stalked him following a single date. I can't believe I'm the one defending the guy here. I do feel sympathy for Morello because she's clearly not in a healthy place, but I didn't think we were supposed to be thinking "haha Christopher got what he deserved" in that scene, I thought it was meant to be another demonstration of how dangerous she is - that she will ensnare someone clearly violent and send him to take revenge on the guy that spurned her. Yes I know Christopher was mean when he came to visit her, but why the fuck shouldn't he be?

Yeah. Agree on Morello; I thought it's supposed to show even though she's so cute and seemingly nice, she's still pretty fucking dangerous when it comes to being delusional and stalking. It sort of showed exactly why she was in the prison in the first place; she was STALKING THE SHIT out of this poor guy after a ''meet cute'' and a single date. and then when she finds someone new...she's still focused on christopher and getting him beat up...because...he was mean???? after she terrorized him and his partner????? i rly love morello but shes got no moral high ground here lol

[mormont]

Morello... well, she needs serious mental help. That's one of the underlying issues the series comes back to with a number of the inmates, not just Suzanne - some of them are just mentally unstable and need treatment, but they wind up in the prison system instead.

But yeah, there's no doubt Morello is dangerous to others and her marriage to Vinnie is, as I said the moment she proposed, not gonna end well.

[The Mance]

On the Piper thing, I felt that that much contraband in the bunk area of an inmate getting out in two days stretches credibility to the point the guards would realise it was a setup. No one would be that stupid.

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to look too closely at the legal processes a lot of the time. This is the same make-believe justice system that sent Nicky up to max for, apparently, "being in the same room as some heroin that was found, or something". Pretty sure the legal defense for that particular crime could have amounted to a dismissive shrug, or maybe a curt, "prove it!"

[HexMachina]

Aaaah. And I suddenly like Dayanara more, she's such a good character when she stands up for what she thinks/wants. Particularly given the flashback scene. It's strange and a little disturbing how much Bennett can look like a knight in shining armour compared to the likes of Pornstache and the bald guy (Cesar?).

Cesar yeah. I decided to rewatch with the various ongoing discussions in mind to see what I had missed, and its quite surprising tbh, how much I'd forgotten. Certainly Dayanara seems far more sympathetic. She shows genuine remorse for what happened to Mendez, despite what a dhit he is, and she is also being pressured by Bennety and Aleida (who delivets the "this rape could be the best thing that ever happened to you" line, proving once more she is one of the most hateable characters on the show)

[eyenon15]

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to look too closely at the legal processes a lot of the time. This is the same make-believe justice system that sent Nicky up to max for, apparently, "being in the same room as some heroin that was found, or something". Pretty sure the legal defense for that particular crime could have amounted to a dismissive shrug, or maybe a curt, "prove it!"

I wonder if Nicky is off the show for good or they are ever going to revisit her. I kept expecting them to return to her story in this season with her trying to fight that bs shaft job she got.

I guess they don't want to get too into the actual realities of things (like what kind of prison is this where steamy sex breaks out around every corner)

This season did tone the prison orgy vibe down a bit. Season 1 was borderline softcore lesbian porn.

As for Piper, just seems weird she's willing to front this crime syndicate when she's going to be released soon.

The claim of needing money when she gets out seems weak and not worth the risk. She has family, maybe could understand a character like Angela, when she gets accidentally released she just sits at the bus station because she has nowhere to go.

[john]

Well, she's got to send a message. The idea is not only to get revenge, it's to stop anyone else from trying to screw her over. A few cigarettes isn't going to get Stella much in the way of additional time. She needs a real deterrent.

I dunno, they all seem to be terrified of max, a couple of months would surely be deterrent enough. Also, I just realised that she planted two dangerous weapons - the shiv and the screwdriver. So she really fucked Stella. And since she used all the contraband she was aware of, she can't even do it again, which kind of lessens the effect.

[mormont]

I dunno, they all seem to be terrified of max, a couple of months would surely be deterrent enough. Also, I just realised that she planted two dangerous weapons - the shiv and the screwdriver. So she really fucked Stella. And since she used all the contraband she was aware of, she can't even do it again, which kind of lessens the effect.

Cigarettes aren't going to get you into max, though. A few nights in SHU, maybe.

The reason for using all the stuff is surely that it's a spectacular - makes people sit up and take notice. Besides, using the same tactic twice won't work too well, so why not give it everything?

[Castel]

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to look too closely at the legal processes a lot of the time. This is the same make-believe justice system that sent Nicky up to max for, apparently, "being in the same room as some heroin that was found, or something". Pretty sure the legal defense for that particular crime could have amounted to a dismissive shrug, or maybe a curt, "prove it!"

I agree on Nicky but I feel like the contraband situation would be the sort of thing that no one would even look twice at if it was a different show. Like say...The Wire.

Thee it would basically be a message on how no one cares and people are crushed beneath the bureaucracy. Besides, doesn't the eveeel (more like apathetic and annoying) corporation make more money from women in Max?

But yeah, Piper is insane. It's one thing to crush someone for daring to want more money, this was actually far more disturbing in retrospect but it never gets the same sort of attention as the union issue, because the show was ending. I have no idea where she'll be as a person next season.

Cesar yeah. I decided to rewatch with the various ongoing discussions in mind to see what I had missed, and its quite surprising tbh, how much I'd forgotten. Certainly Dayanara seems far more sympathetic. She shows genuine remorse for what happened to Mendez, despite what a dhit he is, and she is also being pressured by Bennety and Aleida (who delivets the "this rape could be the best thing that ever happened to you" line, proving once more she is one of the most hateable characters on the show)

The worst thing about Aleida is that I can sorta see Healy leaving or shooting himself, but not her.

It seems that she basically escapes despite being horrible, because her nature should be punishment enough (like Healy) and she creates drama for Daya. The problem is that it's punishment for everyone other than her.

[The Mance]

I agree on Nicky but I feel like the contraband situation would be the sort of thing that no one would even look twice at if it was a different show. Like say...The Wire.

Yeah, that's kind of what i'm getting at. The actual legal particulars are sort of arbitrary, at least to the extent that their realistic application takes a back seat to furthering the plot agenda.

Besides, doesn't the eveeel (more like apathetic and annoying) corporation make more money from women in Max?

Dunno. Is there a Max wing at Lichfield, or would Stella be sent to a whole other, publicly run facility? Maybe this particular eveeel corp actually loses money.

[Minsc]

I dunno, they all seem to be terrified of max, a couple of months would surely be deterrent enough. Also, I just realised that she planted two dangerous weapons - the shiv and the screwdriver.

Didn't Caputo say that the screwdriver, alone, would add on five years to whose ever sentience it was found on when it first went missing? Thus, that could be up to ten more years for Stella in Max.

[Castel]

Yeah, that's kind of what i'm getting at. The actual legal particulars are sort of arbitrary, at least to the extent that their realistic application takes a back seat to furthering the plot agenda.

Dunno. Is there a Max wing at Lichfield, or would Stella be sent to a whole other, publicly run facility? Maybe this particular eveeel corp actually loses money.

I'm pretty sure that they say that the reason they bought the prison is that the max facility down the road made a lot of money?

[karaddin]

I thought they were consolidating the prisons at the end and all those prisoners coming in were from Max, that Nicky and Stella will be among them. This will also help with bringing a sense of danger back to the show - scary unknown prisoners from Max can have the dynamic we had in season 1 back.

I thought with Nicky she basically gave up and didn't fight it, accepting her own implosion (it clearly was hers after all) so even though the evidence was shaky it didn't matter because she wouldn't legally appeal anyway (despite being one of the few with the resources on the outside to fight it). Stella doesn't have the resources, but I thought the guards might be interested just from the point of view of finding who actually had access to all this, but them getting all apathetic is one of the themes of the season.

[voodooqueen126]

Estrogen isn't a muscle melter, testosterone builds it - it's a steroid. Without testosterone sustaining the previous level of muscle mass, you will lose the muscle mass you had. This can be somewhat countered by increasing the level of strength work you do, but it's unlikely to fully counter it. Bear in mind trans women also tend to drop to negligible levels of testosterone, prior to surgery our drugs tend to block it nearly completely and after surgery we only have trace amounts produced by the adrenal gland, this is lower than that of cis women so when people are suggesting trans women have an advantage physically, when it comes to muscle mass and other associated effects of testosterone we are actually at a disadvantage. This also has a tendency to lower the metabolism, increasing weight gain (which is also increased by loss of muscle mass - muscles burn calories). I do the same level of activity as I did for most of my pre transition life and have substantially less muscle, and I always struggled to build muscle mass even for the period I was actively exercising and doing strength training stuff, so it's extraordinarily low muscle mass now. I also eat 33-50% less food than I typically did, and less than half what I was eating when I lived in the US, yet my weight is the same as at my highest point which was when I was in the US because it's so much harder to keep it off now. The one thing that can be said for it is I don't look like I'm carrying the same amount of weight, it sits a lot better now, yay for boobs and hips and a butt?

I suspect the biggest issue was your use of "unfair" before advantage. There are some benefits gained, and I even said as much in the previous post, although these will depend on age of transition, but they don't amount to an unfair advantage, or even a net advantage. Personally I'm more assertive than I would have been otherwise, and thus more likely to call people out for sexism when I experience it because I've felt how people treated me before and I can see the difference. I'm potentially in a better position career wise than I would have been, but that's impossible to say for sure - I would have gotten my helpdesk job anyway, and the boss that promoted me out of the helpdesk hires women when they are there and fit for the role so provided I was still me I think I get the opportunity. That's about it in the column of advantages. I guess I'd list being gay as an advantage, but that's because I am gay and scared of men and trans - I'd be less scared of men if I were not. All of the negative messages aimed at women I still internalised and they weigh on me just as heavily as any woman.

I'm very introspective and have spent a lot of time pondering the subject, unlike Piper who is quite happy to be blind to her privileges, however most of mine at this point come from my class and whiteness not from any male socialisation which simply left me mentally broken for a very long time.

Thank you for this post, it was very interesting and informative.

I too admit that I was surprised when Sophia didn't fight back-I assumed she was holding back because she knew that if she unleashed what I assumed would be superior ex-firefighting dude muscle mass- on her attackers she could potentially accidentally commit manslaughter. Yet in those circumstances-being the victim of randos*-it didn't make sense that she would be able to think "if fight back I could potentially kill someone" when she was lying on the floor.

That you lose previous muscle mass explains it.

and yay for further proof that fat is a feminine feature. Another example is that T a friend of my friend is female to male and lost a heap of weight without trying once they were on testosterone.

*they shouldve atleast been background hispanic inmates...because atleast they were in the same gossip pool as Gloria and co.

[HexMachina]

I thought they were consolidating the prisons at the end and all those prisoners coming in were from Max, that Nicky and Stella will be among them. This will also help with bringing a sense of danger back to the show - scary unknown prisoners from Max can have the dynamic we had in season 1 back.

I thought with Nicky she basically gave up and didn't fight it, accepting her own implosion (it clearly was hers after all) so even though the evidence was shaky it didn't matter because she wouldn't legally appeal anyway (despite being one of the few with the resources on the outside to fight it). Stella doesn't have the resources, but I thought the guards might be interested just from the point of view of finding who actually had access to all this, but them getting all apathetic is one of the themes of the season.

Interesting idea about max, but like Castel I thought Max and the money they made from that was one of the reasons they bought Litchfield. I assumed it was just an influx of new inmates (or maybe prisoners on transfer) and they were just cramming as many people as they could into as small a space as they could to maximise profits. I would like it if you were right though.

Agree with Nicky too. She gave up, didn't fight it. I think part of that was disappointment in herself for trying to keep the heroin after 2 years(?) clean. I'm not sure she does have resources on the outside though. My impression was that she is completely cut off from her mam now. She never gets visitors, never seems to be making phone calls. We know she has a bad relationship with her. So I'm not sure her mother would help her appeal against this anyway, event she hadn't given up.

I really hope the established guards (O'neil, Maxwell, etc.) come back next season. I think the show will suffer from a lack of established prison staff if they don't. Otherwise we've only got Caputo, Healy, Luschek and Donut man. I also hope that other therapist comes back because damnit Healy is horrible.

[The Mance]

I'm pretty sure that they say that the reason they bought the prison is that the max facility down the road made a lot of money?

I don't remember if that meant that they owned the Max facility already, and were looking to expand their penal investments, or if they were just using that model to justify buying Lichfield.

[mormont]

Re: Healy being horrible. One thing I like about this series is that the characters are pretty rounded. There's no denying Healy's pretty awful - homophobic, spiteful, and just plain bad at his job - but he does think of himself as basically a good guy and trying to help the inmates. And he does, rarely, do the right thing. The best example in this season was offering to pay for his wife and her mother to move out. Sure, he'd behaved badly regarding his marriage up to then - selfish and petulant - but his wife was at fault too, and that moment was clearly difficult for him, but he did it. (He also got that corn for Red, but there was something of a selfish motive to that.)

Aleida's pretty awful too, but again, you can see how she justifies it to herself: she sees herself as doing what's necessary to get by. She does what she thinks is the right thing for Daya in the end, too, even if it was a fucked-up sort of solution.

None of that excuses what else those characters have done, and it's some pretty unforgivable stuff, but you can at least understand how they live with themselves, and that makes them good characters IMO.

[voodooqueen126]

Also poor Christopher getting beaten up by Lorna's new boyfriend's thugs.

I love Suzanne's work and Maureen is so sweet.

Poor Dayanara, I hope she finds out what happened to Cesar and then calls Lady Pornstache.

I would like to see backstory for Blanca, Anita Di Marco, Angie.

They made Leanne and Pensatucky sympathetic characters. :bowdown:

Also does anyone want to compare the mentoring relationship between Red and Piper and the mentor failureship of Chang and Soso?

[Theda Baratheon]

hahaha poor Soso I love her to bits. Her and chang cracked me up but also made me sad.

[RumHam]

The problem I see with the Stella frame up is what stops Stella from ratting about the panty operation at this point? In the real world she might even be able to convince the warden or whoever that she was set up because of that. Because seriously who needs two shivs when they're getting out in two days.