Continuity issues and other evidence of poor planning (Minor S5 spoilers)

[Aemon's counsel]

Many people on the forums have commented on things like the fact that Trystane is Doran's only son in S5 contradicts what Tyrion said in S2 about Myrcella marrying Doran's 'youngest son', and that got me thinking about the other continuity issues there have been with the show, namely:

1. Loras being a part of Renly's Kingsguard but then the Tywin threatening to make him a member of the Kingsguard, leaving the Tyrells without an heir. (Clearly they hadn't decided to make Loras the sole male Tyrell heir by S2.)

2. As stated in S5 reviews, Maggy's prophecy still states that Cersei will have three children and none with Robert, despite the fact that in S1 Cersei and Robert talk about a child they had together which died.

In addition to these, there are also instances where the show has clearly laid the groundwork for future book events, only to not follow through:

1. The conversation about Tysha in S1, which wasn't followed through with at the end of S4. Yes, to some extent the S1 conversation works as a stand-alone piece, but for what purpose? Just to give Tyrion another reason to hate Tywin? The Tysha revelation in ASOS does so much more than that, in terms of its implications for Tyrion and Jaime's relationship and Tyrion's future motivations and feelings. The fact that a non-book scene was written to convey in the show what Tyrion believed to be the truth about Tysha circa 'A Game of Thrones' suggests to me that the showrunners had originally intended to follow through.

2. Including Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding. Yes, he's a glorified extra in the background for no more than a few seconds, but placing a character named Wendel Manderly in the Red Wedding was clearly intended as a way for subtly setting up Wyman Manderly and his motivations for future seasons, and yet from all we know so far it seems extremely unlike that the character will appear in the show. I realise that this is an incredibly minor point, but it's one that bothers me especially as I love Manderly and dearly wanted him to be in the show.

3. The fact that Balon is still alive, in spite of Mel's leech burnings. In fact, pretty much anything regarding the Ironborn post S3, as they seem to have been forgotten completely in terms of them being any sort of ongoing concern, despite all the set-up early on in S2.

4. The Brotherhood Without Banners. Not only have they been absent since S3, but they're ostensible narrative purpose (to provide narrative justification for Catelyn's resurrection) is irrelevant since the show is unlikely to introduce Lady Stoneheart at this point.

I realise that a lot of this probably sounds like I'm being extremely fussy, and I do admit that continuity and planning is something I'm slightly obsessed with in books, films and TV shows. And I do understand that it must be a challenge for D&D to keep all of this stuff in check and plan so far ahead etc. But if GRRM can manage to keep his (much more detailed) continuity straight while he's actually making stuff up, and offer satisfying set-ups and pay-offs, I don't really see why D&D can't keep their own (much simpler) continuity in check and plan ahead better when the material they're using is, for the most part, already written down. Looking back at past seasons it really does seem like they didn't know where they were going with a lot of stuff, and it hurts the show.

Am I being unreasonable? Does this stuff bother anyone else? Are there any other continuity issues that I haven't mentioned?

[The Dragon Demands]

On the matter of "Cersei will have no children with Robert"....I'm willing to give them a pass, due to the fact that infant mortality is so high in the medieval society of Westeros that many characters in the novels simply don't include babies who died in the cradle in the count of children a woman "has had".

There were earlier points in the TV series when Cersei describes Joffrey as her "eldest son" -- also probably forgetting their Season 1 comments, but really, it can easily be reconciled by expanding it to mean "children who survived infancy".

I mean, for a long time we thought the Mad King "had" three children, until World of Ice and Fire revealed he had several before Daenerys who were either stillborn or died in the cradle.

[Good Guy Garlan]

In s4, Robin Arryn says he's never left the Eyrie before, but in s1 Cat says Lysa hasn't been back there since her wedding.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

^^nice pick up I wish the show runners had the same memory.

[dsug]

I think the Maggy the Frog thing can easily be explained. They bumped up Roberts number of kids to like 20 I think, so I think his and Cerseis son counts towards that number. I wouldn't put it past Cersei to be hateful enough to not even consider the child a "real son" or something like that. She only acknowledged the children with Jaime.

Her convo with Cat season one is obviously a bunch of crocodile tears meant to avoid suspicion. She only ever brings the kid up one other time, and even then she doesn't sound particularly upset about it. Hell, she might have killed it herself (probably not but still lol).

[Rex999]

I do admit that continuity and planning is something I'm slightly obsessed with in books, films and TV shows. And I do understand that it must be a challenge for D&D to keep all of this stuff in check and plan so far ahead etc. But if GRRM can manage to keep his (much more detailed) continuity straight while he's actually making stuff up, and offer satisfying set-ups and pay-offs, I don't really see why D&D can't keep their own (much simpler) continuity in check and plan ahead better when the material they're using is, for the most part, already written down. Looking back at past seasons it really does seem like they didn't know where they were going with a lot of stuff, and it hurts the show.

Am I being unreasonable? Does this stuff bother anyone else? Are there any other continuity issues that I haven't mentioned?

Sorry but TV does not work that way

When D&D were making season 1 there was know way the could have known if the show was even going to get a season 2 let alone plan for it. Put it this way what if D&D had done everything you said but game of thrones went on to do terrible in the ratings and ended up being canceled after just one season

All of that planning would have been for nothing

Trust me there are lot of sad stories in Hollywood of people planning a huge movie franchise or a long running TV show

only to have their dreams crushed when the movie or show didn't do well

[FreeParking]

On the matter of "Cersei will have no children with Robert"....I'm willing to give them a pass, due to the fact that infant mortality is so high in the medieval society of Westeros that many characters in the novels simply don't include babies who died in the cradle in the count of children a woman "has had".

There were earlier points in the TV series when Cersei describes Joffrey as her "eldest son" -- also probably forgetting their Season 1 comments, but really, it can easily be reconciled by expanding it to mean "children who survived infancy".

I mean, for a long time we thought the Mad King "had" three children, until World of Ice and Fire revealed he had several before Daenerys who were either stillborn or died in the cradle.

Thank you for that explanation. I will now use this to rectify things in my head about Maggy's prophecy.

[Dofs]

1. The conversation about Tysha in S1, which wasn't followed through with at the end of S4. Yes, to some extent the S1 conversation works as a stand-alone piece, but for what purpose? Just to give Tyrion another reason to hate Tywin? The Tysha revelation in ASOS does so much more than that, in terms of its implications for Tyrion and Jaime's relationship and Tyrion's future motivations and feelings. The fact that a non-book scene was written to convey in the show what Tyrion believed to be the truth about Tysha circa 'A Game of Thrones' suggests to me that the showrunners had originally intended to follow through.

I just wanted to add that the showrunners reminded us about Tysha in Season 3, now seemingly for no reason. That means that they didn't know that they will change this storyline until they started to write season 4.

[shadow282]

Many people on the forums have commented on things like the fact that Trystane is Doran's only son in S5 contradicts what Tyrion said in S2 about Myrcella marrying Doran's 'youngest son', and that got me thinking about the other continuity issues there have been with the show, namely:

1. Loras being a part of Renly's Kingsguard but then the Tywin threatening to make him a member of the Kingsguard, leaving the Tyrells without an heir. (Clearly they hadn't decided to make Loras the sole male Tyrell heir by S2.)

2. As stated in S5 reviews, Maggy's prophecy still states that Cersei will have three children and none with Robert, despite the fact that in S1 Cersei and Robert talk about a child they had together which died.

In addition to these, there are also instances where the show has clearly laid the groundwork for future book events, only to not follow through:

1. The conversation about Tysha in S1, which wasn't followed through with at the end of S4. Yes, to some extent the S1 conversation works as a stand-alone piece, but for what purpose? Just to give Tyrion another reason to hate Tywin? The Tysha revelation in ASOS does so much more than that, in terms of its implications for Tyrion and Jaime's relationship and Tyrion's future motivations and feelings. The fact that a non-book scene was written to convey in the show what Tyrion believed to be the truth about Tysha circa 'A Game of Thrones' suggests to me that the showrunners had originally intended to follow through.

2. Including Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding. Yes, he's a glorified extra in the background for no more than a few seconds, but placing a character named Wendel Manderly in the Red Wedding was clearly intended as a way for subtly setting up Wyman Manderly and his motivations for future seasons, and yet from all we know so far it seems extremely unlike that the character will appear in the show. I realise that this is an incredibly minor point, but it's one that bothers me especially as I love Manderly and dearly wanted him to be in the show.

3. The fact that Balon is still alive, in spite of Mel's leech burnings. In fact, pretty much anything regarding the Ironborn post S3, as they seem to have been forgotten completely in terms of them being any sort of ongoing concern, despite all the set-up early on in S2.

4. The Brotherhood Without Banners. Not only have they been absent since S3, but they're ostensible narrative purpose (to provide narrative justification for Catelyn's resurrection) is irrelevant since the show is unlikely to introduce Lady Stoneheart at this point.

I realise that a lot of this probably sounds like I'm being extremely fussy, and I do admit that continuity and planning is something I'm slightly obsessed with in books, films and TV shows. And I do understand that it must be a challenge for D&D to keep all of this stuff in check and plan so far ahead etc. But if GRRM can manage to keep his (much more detailed) continuity straight while he's actually making stuff up, and offer satisfying set-ups and pay-offs, I don't really see why D&D can't keep their own (much simpler) continuity in check and plan ahead better when the material they're using is, for the most part, already written down. Looking back at past seasons it really does seem like they didn't know where they were going with a lot of stuff, and it hurts the show.

Am I being unreasonable? Does this stuff bother anyone else? Are there any other continuity issues that I haven't mentioned?

1) Oberyn Martell is at first said to have not left Dorne but in later books was said to have spent time in Essos.

2) The Hand's tournament prize is ridiculously way too large compared to everything else

3)The army sizes have varied way too widely to be reasonable in the world

4)Travel times make no sense across Westeros's size unless they invented a teleporter

If you're going to include show mistakes it only seems fair to include book mistakes.

Or yes, you're being unreasonable.

[Aemon's counsel]

Sorry but TV does not work that way

When D&D were making season 1 there was know way the could have known if the show was even going to get a season 2 let alone plan for it. Put it this way what if D&D had done everything you said but game of thrones went on to do terrible in the ratings and ended up being canceled after just one season

All of that planning would have been for nothing

Trust me there are lot of sad stories in Hollywood of people planning a huge movie franchise or a long running TV show

only to have their dreams crushed when the movie or show didn't do well

I take your point, but they didn't have to plan it out all in advance - just review what they've already created while / before writing the next season. And The Wire (which is the only show I've seen that has a comparable scope in terms of the amount of plotlines and characters) managed to avoid any similar continuity problems and there was no guarantee that that was going to be renewed year after year.

I think the Maggy the Frog thing can easily be explained. They bumped up Roberts number of kids to like 20 I think, so I think his and Cerseis son counts towards that number. I wouldn't put it past Cersei to be hateful enough to not even consider the child a "real son" or something like that. She only acknowledged the children with Jaime.

Her convo with Cat season one is obviously a bunch of crocodile tears meant to avoid suspicion. She only ever brings the kid up one other time, and even then she doesn't sound particularly upset about it. Hell, she might have killed it herself (probably not but still lol).

Well, I suppose that's a pretty good way of explaining it away. And to be fair, if the prophecy did mention four children most people would be very confused.

[WhitewolfStark]

I take your point, but they didn't have to plan it out all in advance - just review what they've already created while / before writing the next season. And The Wire (which is the only show I've seen that has a comparable scope in terms of the amount of plotlines and characters) managed to avoid any similar continuity problems and there was no guarantee that that was going to be renewed year after year.

Well, I suppose that's a pretty good way of explaining it away. And to be fair, if the prophecy did mention four children most people would be very confused.

Continuity issues are a common problem in shows stretching back a long while. I mean, in the first season of I Dream of Jeannie, Jeannie started as a regular normal girl who was turned into a Djinn by an evil djinn. Later seasons eventually changed it to that she was from a family of djinn, and even had her mother appear as a kind of Endora figure once Tony and Jeannie got married.

So continuity issues are a long standing issue of the medium, and while they're annoying, I think are to be expected, as television is all about selling the now in the present. As others have said, making long term plans in the television industry can often blow up in your face.

[aFeastForDragons]

Vary's giving the go ahead to assassins all over Essos to murder Daenerys in S1 but is now backing her as if that was his plan all along. One of the clear examples of the show runners digging themselves into a hole.

[Dragon in the North]

Vary's giving the go ahead to assassins all over Essos to murder Daenerys in S1 but is now backing her as if that was his plan all along. One of the clear examples of the show runners digging themselves into a hole.

Conleth Hill stated that the assassination attempt will be brought up this season. Whether or not they give a satisfying explanation still remains to be seen.

[Takyon]

Vary's giving the go ahead to assassins all over Essos to murder Daenerys in S1 but is now backing her as if that was his plan all along. One of the clear examples of the show runners digging themselves into a hole.

I hope you're not forgetting about Arya's chapter from AGOT, where she eavesdrops on Varys and Illyrio discussing things in King's Landing.

Varys clearly has invested interest in the Targaryens and is not against the idea of sharing news to a possible enemy of Westeros. I don't think this necessarily contradicts his involvement in the assassination plot because ultimately, Varys' concern is about the stability of the realm and that would mean that there would have to be very few contenders for the thrown. Before the War of the Five Kings, stability could have meant either Dany taking the thrown or Dany being killed off; to me, it makes sense for Varys to hasten either of those two outcomes.

As for his sudden allegiance to House Targaryen...well, it's sort of obvious that he had nowhere else to go at the end of the fourth season and if he still believed in the integrity of the realm, he would have to pick a side.

[Paid Debt Lannister]

I don't think we can discuss Varys so far. But yes, there have been a lot of small mistakes in the series: the Tyrells seem pretty dumb by now. Balon and BwB are also things tha bother me a lot.

[HodoringHodor]

2. As stated in S5 reviews, Maggy's prophecy still states that Cersei will have three children and none with Robert, despite the fact that in S1 Cersei and Robert talk about a child they had together which died.

Cersei didn't talk about it with Robert in season 1 but with Catelyn after Bran had been pushed out of the tower. What Cersei was saying is that you have to just let go, Bran will die. So it's a lie by Cersei.

Vary's giving the go ahead to assassins all over Essos to murder Daenerys in S1 but is now backing her as if that was his plan all along. One of the clear examples of the show runners digging themselves into a hole.

Varys' actor has said that issue will be addressed in season 5, so it's not a clear example of the show runners digging themselves into a hole.

[Cashless Society]

Her convo with Cat season one is obviously a bunch of crocodile tears meant to avoid suspicion. She only ever brings the kid up one other time, and even then she doesn't sound particularly upset about it. Hell, she might have killed it herself (probably not but still lol).

I'm pretty sure she did have the child killed.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

1) Oberyn Martell is at first said to have not left Dorne but in later books was said to have spent time in Essos.

2) The Hand's tournament prize is ridiculously way too large compared to everything else

3)The army sizes have varied way too widely to be reasonable in the world

4)Travel times make no sense across Westeros's size unless they invented a teleporter

If you're going to include show mistakes it only seems fair to include book mistakes.

Or yes, you're being unreasonable.

1) There is nothing like that. It is only said that Oberyn hasn't left Dorne after Jon Arryn visited Sunspear.

2) Agreed.

3) How?

4) GRRM has admitted this, but the show is doing it even worse.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

The continuity on this show is trash.

[Rashtibram]

With regards to things that "weren't followed up on," I think we all have a tendency to plaster the book's narrative structure/payoffs over those of the show, blinding us to other purposes certain events/characters/conversations might have had.