Aegon V Appreciation Thread

[RenlyIsNotRight]

This may be a shock to some, as I'm kind of a known Targ hater, but reading TWoIaF I seriously couldn't help but find myself jiving with Aegon V from what I read about the dude. He seemed almost like the opposite of what the typical Targ is - namely because he was very humble and not down with incest.

And I couldn't help but get a sad irony from him not wanting his kids in incestuous marriages, but of course that got fucked up and led to the absolute worst of the Targs down the line (Aerys and his children). Makes you wonder how things would have turned out if they just listened to Aegon.

Anyone else a fan of this dude? And I do know he was also in Dunk and Egg as a kid, but I'm talking about what he grew to be.

[Aemond's Eye]

I don't buy the "typical Targaryen" stereotype anyway. Were Aenys I, Jarhaerys I, Viserys I, Aegon III, Viserys II, Daeron II and Maekar I typical of Targaryens? What about Baelor I or Aerys I? They're all very different, and quite a few were just and in favour of reforms.

I like Aegon because he was Egg. As Aegon V he doesn't strike me as an impressive King. He was the fourth son of a fourth son and thus never tutored to rule in the way, for example, Rhaenyra was, so it's understandable. It's nice that he empathised with smallfolk and wanted to bring about reform, but he doesn't seem to be a skilled politician, and each of his children were able to defy the betrothals King Aegon V & Queen Betha arranged. Duncan doing so was embarrassment enough; that all four did so suggest that Aegon was not of a strong enough will when it came to his children.

And in one aspect he very much was "a typical Targaryen" - he wanted to bring back dragons in order to strengthen his authority in the face of disgruntled nobility. It's understandable that they viewed him as tyrannical

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Yes, despite the fact that he seems responsible for the Summerhall tragedy I can't help liking him.

I also like to think that Egg is supposed to be a bit of a parallel with Dany--showing us that a Targ brought up in the "real world" and not at court can turn out very populist. Both Aegon and Dany have a lot of sympathy for the common people. Unfortunately Egg was never able to enforce his populist ideas, apparently because he didn't have dragons. Yet Dany has dragons and is still not able to make the world in her image. Clearly good intentions aren't everything--but they are certainly endearing. :-)

[HexMachina]

Yes, despite the fact that he seems responsible for the Summerhall tragedy I can't help liking him.

I also like to think that Egg is supposed to be a bit of a parallel with Dany--showing us that a Targ brought up in the "real world" and not at court can turn out very populist. Both Aegon and Dany have a lot of sympathy for the common people. Unfortunately Egg was never able to enforce his populist ideas, apparently because he didn't have dragons. Yet Dany has dragons and is still not able to make the world in her image. Clearly good intentions aren't everything--but they are certainly endearing. :-)

Dany can't make the world in her image because she wouldn't use her dragons, imo. So she compromised. And compromised. And compromised some more. But now her dragons are released, and shit just got real ;)

And as for Aegon V, yes, I agree, great man. Probably one of those; he was years ahead of his time type people. His ideas were great, but sadly, the time just wasn't ripe for them, because of the resistance of his Lords...and his children screwing up his plans

[Aemond's Eye]

I don't think that Aegon V was necessarily ahead of his time. Jaehaerys I & Alysanne and Viserys II both brought about reforms. Aegon's may have been more radical, but that speaks to his lack of political savvy as much as anything - lasting reforms are a gradual process.

I think Aegon V shows that good men don't always make the best rulers.

[HexMachina]

I don't think that Aegon V was necessarily ahead of his time. Jaehaerys I & Alysanne and Viserys II both brought about reforms. Aegon's may have been more radical, but that speaks to his lack of political savvy as much as anything - lasting reforms are a gradual process.

I think Aegon V shows that good men don't always make the best rulers.

Ahead of his time in terms of his opinions about equality/rights, I mean.

I agree with you btw. That is why Insaid he was a great man in my post. Avoided the great ruler thing, because unfortunately he wasn't, due to a combination of bad luck, unhelpful relatives and his own upbringing as a real dark horse for the throne. Still, his idea to win the loyalty of the more powerful lords with his children's marriages was actually a very smart move. Shame they disagreed...

[kakaloto]

I'm a big Dunk fan, but despite all the good things he taught Egg, he was still a borderline halfwit. Being raised by a halfwit doesn't exactly prepare you for ruling a Kingdom, but yeah it sure is endearing :)

Dunk and Egg, (trying to keep his real identity secret), sitting around a campfire with some hedge knights:

"It's slow. Are we going to go to Whitewalls, ser?"

"Why not? I want to see this dragon's egg." Dunk smiled. "If I win the tourney, we'd both have dragon's eggs."

Egg gave him a doubtful look.

"What? Why are you looking at me that way?"

"I could tell you, ser," the boy said solemnly, "but I need to learn to hold my tongue."

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Ahhhh The Egg...

The tremendous posthumous facepalm he must have done by the time of the Rebellion surely was something to behold

[Aemond's Eye]

Ahead of his time in terms of his opinions about equality/rights, I mean.

I agree with you btw. That is why Insaid he was a great man in my post. Avoided the great ruler thing, because unfortunately he wasn't, due to a combination of bad luck, unhelpful relatives and his own upbringing as a real dark horse for the throne. Still, his idea to win the loyalty of the more powerful lords with his children's marriages was actually a very smart move. Shame they disagreed...

I'd like to know more about what reforms Viserys II was working on. For him to be considered "another Jaehaerys I in the making" suggests some fairly important reforms, and it'd lend a bit of weight to noble cronies encouraging Aegon IV that his father shouldn't be king...

[Aemond's Eye]

Damn double post.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I think Aegon V may have been the most progressive (and thus best) monarch Westeros ever had. He seems to have been the only who actually cared about the common man whereas every other monarch - even Jaehaerys I and Daeron II - where only good monarch within the confines of the feudal structure they operated in.

The feudal monarchy of Westeros is essentially a nightmare. The smallfolk has essentially no rights at all, there is no strong central government, no societal structure to create a lasting peace. Everything depends on the whims and character of the guy who is born to rule - both at the top and on mid-level (i.e. lordly level).

We have yet no idea what reforms Aegon V tried to make - or what reforms he actually did enforce which were later taken back by Jaehaerys II and Aerys II and Tywn - but the impression Yandel gives is that he tried to circumvent the Lords not strengthen the Crown's power but rather to emancipate the smallfolk and strengthen its rights. The whole dragon idea was supposed to be a way to strengthen his power but he only wanted that power to change the society he lived in for the better.

If we ignore the scandals and rebellions during his reign I'd imagine he was indeed one of the best monarchs in Westerosi history as I simply cannot imagine he would be disinterested when he, for instance, held court or dealt out justice. Egg was always a smart and very interested boy - that would not have changed when he took the crown. Even more importantly, he ruled supreme until his death which means he was both a skilled warrior/commander as well as a good politician. Despite his reform agenda no enemy of his was able to outmaneuver him and forge an successful rebel coalition against him. That is quite a feature especially in light of the still looming Blackfyre threat.

[Aemond's Eye]

Actually, I think Aegon V may have been the most progressive (and thus best) monarch Westeros ever had. He seems to have been the only who actually cared about the common man whereas every other monarch - even Jaehaerys I and Daeron II - where only good monarch within the confines of the feudal structure they operated in.

The feudal monarchy of Westeros is essentially a nightmare. The smallfolk has essentially no rights at all, there is no strong central government, no societal structure to create a lasting peace. Everything depends on the whims and character of the guy who is born to rule - both at the top and on mid-level (i.e. lordly level).

We have yet no idea what reforms Aegon V tried to make - or what reforms he actually did enforce which were later taken back by Jaehaerys II and Aerys II and Tywn - but the impression Yandel gives is that he tried to circumvent the Lords not strengthen the Crown's power but rather to emancipate the smallfolk and strengthen its rights. The whole dragon idea was supposed to be a way to strengthen his power but he only wanted that power to change the society he lived in for the better.

If we ignore the scandals and rebellions during his reign I'd imagine he was indeed one of the best monarchs in Westerosi history as I simply cannot imagine he would be disinterested when he, for instance, held court or dealt out justice. Egg was always a smart and very interested boy - that would not have changed when he took the crown. Even more importantly, he ruled supreme until his death which means he was both a skilled warrior/commander as well as a good politician. Despite his reform agenda no enemy of his was able to outmaneuver him and forge an successful rebel coalition against him. That is quite a feature especially in light of the still looming Blackfyre threat.

I wasn't suggesting he was a tyrant, by the by. Just pointing out that the "typical Targaryen" tag that's used on here is very vague and there isn't really a typical Targaryen, but if there was then surely someone who wanted to use the threat of dragons to strengthen his rule would be more typical than atypical?

[Lord Varys]

I did not understand you that way. I was just trying to make a point how Yandel's portrait of Aegon V seems to written from the POV of a pro-feudal monarchy guy - which means that Egg is not counted among the great monarchs due to his 'problematic political agenda'.

But you are right that there are remarkably different types among the Targaryen kings, and there are essentially no 'typical Targaryens' to be found.

[Aemond's Eye]

Yeah, Yandel's chapter on him is clearly supposed to portray him in a negative light. The main criticisms you can take from it, objectively, is that he wasn't much of a politician and didn't force his children to marry against their will. Which, from a human standpoint, doesn't exactly make you a bad person. It's a sign of how difficult it is to rule when being a fundamentally good man can sometimes prove a hindrance.

Aegon also didn't have a Viserys II or Bloodraven to help in regards to 'the game'. Aemon and Bloodraven would have provided good counsel, but were understandably unavailable to him for anything more than passing advice, if even that. Perhaps if he did have someone like Viserys or Bloodraven there then it would have provided some sort of counter balance.

Ultimately it'd likely all have been for naught anyway, as Jaehaerys doesn't seem to have been in agreement with his father there. Perhaps Duncan was - giving up the crown to marry a commoner suggests he may have been, which would be a bit of cruel irony; the heir who would have pressed on with reforms to aid the smallfolk gave that up as he fell in love with one of them.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know anything about Egg's administration - his Hands, or Small Council. I'd not be surprised if he had shrewd advisers and very capable Hands. Say, Ser Duncan the Tall.

What good would have come from the marriages of Egg's children is also hard to tell. We know that the Duncan affair caused an unnecessary war, but was Lyonel later continuing to oppose Aegon V in regards to the reforms? If not, then this was not so big a deal. And with the Tyrells, Tullys, and Redwynes we don't even know what the repercussions for Egg were, exactly. And vice versa we also do not know whether those houses would have backed Aegon V with his reforms if he the marriages had happened.

I'm also inclined to believe that Jaehaerys II wasn't as progressive as his father but I guess he only undid some of his father's reforms to get the Lords on his side during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He was not as martial or awe-inspiring as his father and neither Duncan nor Daeron were alive to help him on that field. Prince Duncan clearly had a place at court until his death, and I'm pretty sure he would have played a big role at Jaehaerys' court had he survived Summerhall.

Aerys and Tywin should have dealt the real blow to Egg's reforms.

[Aemond's Eye]

We don't yet know anything about Duncan between his days as a hedge knight and kingsguard, but I don't envision him being part of the solution to nobility considering King Aegon V "half a peasant" or being much of a political maestro. Good friend and honest adviser? Probably. But I can't picture him being a Septon Barth or Viserys II type.

Jaehaerys might have been progressive, but given his views on Targaryen incest were traditional I wouldn't be shocked if he also wasn't of the same mind in respect of Aegon's reforms. But it would depend on what the reforms were, and how Aegon went about him. I mean, did Aegon try to go from A to Z in one swoop, rather than taking gradual steps? Perhaps his son may have realised that some reforms were too much, too soon.

[Ser Eric]

He couldn't control his own children, who followed his own example and married for love. Good man but not a good king by all accounts.

[Lord Varys]

Well, he chose not to control his own children. That's a difference. Considering that he wanted to end incest he could have been able to declare Jaehaerys-Shaera's marriage invalid applying the 'usual laws (and punishments)' for incest the Faith and the Realm had against this abominable behavior. Thus he surely could have dissolved the match. Or on the grounds that Jaehaerys and Shaera were both still minors. He most likely did not do any of that as it would have shamed and disgraced his daughter who had already been (publicly?) deflowered by her brother-husband.

He could also have forcefully unmade the Duncan-Jenny match by, say, torturing Duncan and Jenny into publicly asking for an annulment (which the High Septon was willing to grant) or by jumping on the witch train - claiming that his son Duncan had been 'bewitched' by Jenny and had thus not been himself/not married Jenny of his own free will.

But that would not have been nice, or would it?

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Well, he chose not to control his own children. That's a difference. Considering that he wanted to end incest he could have been able to declare Jaehaerys-Shaera's marriage invalid applying the 'usual laws (and punishments)' for incest the Faith and the Realm had against this abominable behavior. Thus he surely could have dissolved the match. Or on the grounds that Jaehaerys and Shaera were both still minors. He most likely did not do any of that as it would have shamed and disgraced his daughter who had already been (publicly?) deflowered by her brother-husband.

He could also have forcefully unmade the Duncan-Jenny match by, say, torturing Duncan and Jenny into publicly asking for an annulment (which the High Septon was willing to grant) or by jumping on the witch train - claiming that his son Duncan had been 'bewitched' by Jenny and had thus not been himself/not married Jenny of his own free will.

But that would not have been nice, or would it?

I do think he perhaps should have doen that for Duncan and Jenny, it is not nice, but a King cannot afford to be nice all the time.

[Ser Eric]

Well, he chose not to control his own children. That's a difference. Considering that he wanted to end incest he could have been able to declare Jaehaerys-Shaera's marriage invalid applying the 'usual laws (and punishments)' for incest the Faith and the Realm had against this abominable behavior. Thus he surely could have dissolved the match. Or on the grounds that Jaehaerys and Shaera were both still minors. He most likely did not do any of that as it would have shamed and disgraced his daughter who had already been (publicly?) deflowered by her brother-husband.

He could also have forcefully unmade the Duncan-Jenny match by, say, torturing Duncan and Jenny into publicly asking for an annulment (which the High Septon was willing to grant) or by jumping on the witch train - claiming that his son Duncan had been 'bewitched' by Jenny and had thus not been himself/not married Jenny of his own free will.

But that would not have been nice, or would it?

They didn't leave him with much of a choice short of airing all the dirty Targaryen laundry in public which would have hardly done him any good. So no, he couldn't control his children. None of his children were in the wrong either. I can only assume he wasn't assertive enough as a king or that they all looked up to him a tad too much. Whatever the case was, it didn't do his kingdom much good.