Shadowbinders are evil ?

[DraculaAD1972]

But the things she is doing - shadow babies, human sacrifice - are unquestionable evil.

From her perspective it could be 'necessary' evil, done for the greater good. A means to an end.

I'm not sure shadowbabies are unquestionable evil. They seem to work like faceless men- they kill their target, that seems to be their prime function. Are the faceless men evil?

Mel regards death by fire as a 'pure' death, like Victarion imagining the women he burned are ascending to heaven, their souls purified by the flames. Mystics like Rudolf Steiner talk about 'spiritual fire' that burns away the soul's base desires to allow admittance into the spiritual realm. This seems to be Mel's take on what being burned alive means to those people. And it's clear that she sees their suffering as useful- the screams of agony make the magic possible.

Experts on mythology like Joseph Campbell and Robert Graves argue that our modern minds cannot appreciate the spiritual value of blood sacrifice. Perhaps this is why GRRM thinks she is misunderstood.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Have you read Radio Westeros' theory on this? Read that before you come to any judgement.

Mel is using glamour, but she's also enhanced her actual virility. She's clearly older than she looks, but it's no illusion - she rides horses and even carries Stannis standard when they meet Renly - that's physically demanding job. People are putting too much on her glamour abilities. She doesn't eat or sleep, her blood is black. There's a LOT more than glamours going on here.

The Radio Westeros theory can be easily found on their website.

I've read many theories on what is going on with Melisandre, and as such I have my own opinions about who/what she is. And either way, I was talking about how she CAN'T be the daughter of Bloodraven, and was refuting that just because she has red eyes, she is kin to Bloodraven. I merely stated that the way she looks is most likely part of a glamour. To go on i DO believe that she is much more enhanced than a simple glamour. She has done something to regain the strength, stamina, and beauty of a young woman. I also believe that in regards to the Church of the Red God, Melisandre is the highest level one can go, in terms of devotion and the amount of power one can wield within the confines of the faith of R'Hllor. Thoros doesn't display even a quarter of her powers, and the Black Flame has only done one thing that Mel has also done.

[LordImp]

Melisandre probably thinks it's a good thing to eradicate ice magic , which is wrong because without ice there is no balance.

[LmL]

Melisandre probably thinks it's a good thing to eradicate ice magic , which is wrong because without ice there is no balance.

Yes, exactly. Someone explained to me that there two kinds of dualism: one where you believe the opposing forces need to be in balance, and one where you believe one side is stronger than the other and must eventually prevail in total victory. I forget the smart-people words for these types, but I think the principle is clear enough.

[LmL]

From her perspective it could be 'necessary' evil, done for the greater good. A means to an end.

I'm not sure shadowbabies are unquestionable evil. They seem to work like faceless men- they kill their target, that seems to be their prime function. Are the faceless men evil?

Mel regards death by fire as a 'pure' death, like Victarion imagining the women he burned are ascending to heaven, their souls purified by the flames. Mystics like Rudolf Steiner talk about 'spiritual fire' that burns away the soul's base desires to allow admittance into the spiritual realm. This seems to be Mel's take on what being burned alive means to those people. And it's clear that she sees their suffering as useful- the screams of agony make the magic possible.

Experts on mythology like Joseph Campbell and Robert Graves argue that our modern minds cannot appreciate the spiritual value of blood sacrifice. Perhaps this is why GRRM thinks she is misunderstood.

Just wanted to say I enjoyed your comments here, King o the Slums. I am familiar with Campbell of course and Steiner a bit less so, but I've seen references to his work in a lot of other books I have read that are up the same alley. I get where you're coming from, and you raise valid points. I do think Mel believes she is serving the greater good, and as I said above, she is good hearted at times, as in the case of Davos' son. Certainly she thinks she's doing right. But intentions don't justify actions, of course. Shadow babies I find evil mainly because they suck the life force out of the parent (Stannis) to create unnatural beings, although I suppose you can make an argument for making shadow babies to kill even worse things - although I personally don't buy it. I'm going to go out on a limb though and say that sacrificing children is ALWAYS evil. Call me old-fashioned....

I didn't say blood sacrifice doesn't have power - just that you can't justify murder with any Machiavellian thinking. At least I cannot. And I believe George is actually quite the moralist, though he has hidden it well. I am seeing a pacifist who essentially follows the principles of Yin and Yang, although I'm not sure if we can call him a Bhuddist. Yin-yang / balance of opposites is a widespread principle, yin and yang are merely the best known example.

Now, could a person who is doing evil things still have a part to play to help the heroes win? Yes. I believe Mellisandre will play a part in ressurrecting Jon and putting him back into his body, and I believe that Mel has magical knowledge which is badly needed at the wall. I actually like Mel's character - she has an interesting backstory and her internal dilemmas are quite interesting.

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

Do you think the shadowbinders may be evil ?

- They originates from Asshai by the shadow , which is a dark place.

- Melisandre who is a shadowbinder can give birth to shadow babies

- Shadow babies are not exacly good things

So maybe the shadowbinders are users of dark magic and are actually worshipers of darkness.

Whats your toughts ?

Bonus question: Do you think it's possible to raise an army of shadows ?

Melisandre does point out that shadows are servants of the light.

[LmL]

Melisandre does point out that shadows are servants of the light.

I think this is one of the major deceptions of R'hllorism. Sure, light creates shadows, okay. But the R'hllorists seems to have a lot more shadow about them than light... I call BS. I fact I think that all fire magic on Planetos is tainted, because the original source of fire magic has been corrupted - the Shadow. I suspect it used to be more of an opposite of the Heart of Winter in the far north - the Heart of Summer. After the Long Night cataclysm and the Bloodstone Emperor's (Azor Ahai's) reign of terror, the heart of summer became the heart of darkness (as it is referred two twice in ASOAIF) and the Shadow. All of our fire magicians go there to study magic - what kind of fire magic are they doing in a place called "The Shadow," anyway? The shadowy kind.

I have yet to see anything by the priests of the Lord of Light that has to do with bringing light.

[A horsefaced girl]

Melisandre does point out that shadows are servants of the light.

True, but is this from her or is it actually a teaching of R'hhlor? I don't think we once hear Moqorro speak similarly of shadows. I'm not for sure about it but I think she was raised in the R'hhlor temple, (somewhere) and then in her search for AA come again went to Asshai where she incorporated shadowbinding to R'hhlor thus creating her own beliefs.

[Associate Maester]

Do you think the shadowbinders may be evil ?

- They originates from Asshai by the shadow , which is a dark place.

- Melisandre who is a shadowbinder can give birth to shadow babies

- Shadow babies are not exacly good things

So maybe the shadowbinders are users of dark magic and are actually worshipers of darkness.

Whats your toughts ?

Bonus question: Do you think it's possible to raise an army of shadows ?

I don't see shadowbinders as anymore inherently evil than those that practice other forms of magic we've seen. All magic in Martin's world seems to involve some kind of sacrifice ("only death can pay for life" etc). I'm sure it is possible to raise an army of shadows, whether we'll see such a thing in ASOIAF who knows.

[LordImp]

I think this is one of the major deceptions of R'hllorism. Sure, light creates shadows, okay. But the R'hllorists seems to have a lot more shadow about them than light... I call BS. I fact I think that all fire magic on Planetos is tainted, because the original source of fire magic has been corrupted - the Shadow. I suspect it used to be more of an opposite of the Heart of Winter in the far north - the Heart of Summer. After the Long Night cataclysm and the Bloodstone Emperor's (Azor Ahai's) reign of terror, the heart of summer became the heart of darkness (as it is referred two twice in ASOAIF) and the Shadow. All of our fire magicians go there to study magic - what kind of fire magic are they doing in a place called "The Shadow," anyway? The shadowy kind.

I have yet to see anything by the priests of the Lord of Light that has to do with bringing light.

Yes. The magic they are using in Asshai is not good and definetly not light.

[BalerionTheCat]

Yes. The magic they are using in Asshai is not good and definetly not light.

I don't know if all the Shadowbinders are on the same side. Or if we don't put different sides in the same sack by lack of understanding. But I believe the Shadow Lands and ghost grass around Asshai will have to be removed if we want the end to the war between Ice and Fire, the alternation of dreadful winters and hot summers. Even if the summers don't look that bad. I don't think the Red Priests of R'hllor total victory against the Others would be a good thing. I think it is their rise which is calling the Long Night. The Others are the demons of the Lion of Night or Stranger as it is known in Westeros.

[DraculaAD1972]

Just wanted to say I enjoyed your comments here, King o the Slums. I am familiar with Campbell of course and Steiner a bit less so, but I've seen references to his work in a lot of other books I have read that are up the same alley. I get where you're coming from, and you raise valid points. I do think Mel believes she is serving the greater good, and as I said above, she is good hearted at times, as in the case of Davos' son. Certainly she thinks she's doing right. But intentions don't justify actions, of course. Shadow babies I find evil mainly because they suck the life force out of the parent (Stannis) to create unnatural beings, although I suppose you can make an argument for making shadow babies to kill even worse things - although I personally don't buy it. I'm going to go out on a limb though and say that sacrificing children is ALWAYS evil. Call me old-fashioned....

I didn't say blood sacrifice doesn't have power - just that you can't justify murder with any Machiavellian thinking. At least I cannot. And I believe George is actually quite the moralist, though he has hidden it well. I am seeing a pacifist who essentially follows the principles of Yin and Yang, although I'm not sure if we can call him a Bhuddist. Yin-yang / balance of opposites is a widespread principle, yin and yang are merely the best known example.

Now, could a person who is doing evil things still have a part to play to help the heroes win? Yes. I believe Mellisandre will play a part in ressurrecting Jon and putting him back into his body, and I believe that Mel has magical knowledge which is badly needed at the wall. I actually like Mel's character - she has an interesting backstory and her internal dilemmas are quite interesting.

It's interesting to consider George's beliefs- that he is a pacifist, a libertarian. His morality is indeed well hidden. That idea of a yin/ yang balance as his metaphysic makes sense.

It just struck me that Mel's obsession with burning a king - specifically to save the world from eternal night, from the death of the sun- is a representation of the theory (Robert Graves, Stan Gooch) that the original pagan religion was a ritualised drama invoking the annual rebirth of the sun at the midwinter, symbolised by the human sacrifice of a real or symbolic king. At midsummer the sun is dealt a mortal wound, causing his death at midwinter. The sacrifice was seen as essential to ensure the rebirth of the sun- failure would result in eternal night. Possibly this religion formed when humans took over from Neanderthals in Europe. That death by burning features here (the Celts were known for this), is due to the ancient association of fire with their all-poweful moon goddess. Mel clearly sees fire as sacred to R'hllor , a sun god- but it's interesting that her metaphysic, R'hllor versus Great Other, corresponds to the God/Devil, Apollo/Dionysus duality of the pagans, representing the sun in the two halves of the solar year- the light half and dark half. The sun king was presided over by the moon, Queen of heaven, until the goddess was overturned in a spiritual coup that caused man's schism from from oneness of nature and spirit. Paganism became stranded in duality and divorced from the true magic. That this 'true magic' involves burning people alive to resurrect the sun is of course horrifying and unimaginable to a rational mind, although it makes sense if the actual death of the sun is imminent and only sacred blood magic can save the day. We would consider the mindset flawed, deluded, but Graves argues that it represents a harmony with nature that transcends the good/evil dichotomy of the rational mind.

[Batbob45]

Shadow binding can be use for good, it can be used to fix smallfolks' homes

[LmL]

It's interesting to consider George's beliefs- that he is a pacifist, a libertarian. His morality is indeed well hidden. That idea of a yin/ yang balance as his metaphysic makes sense.

It just struck me that Mel's obsession with burning a king - specifically to save the world from eternal night, from the death of the sun- is a representation of the theory (Robert Graves, Stan Gooch) that the original pagan religion was a ritualised drama invoking the annual rebirth of the sun at the midwinter, symbolised by the human sacrifice of a real or symbolic king. At midsummer the sun is dealt a mortal wound, causing his death at midwinter. The sacrifice was seen as essential to ensure the rebirth of the sun- failure would result in eternal night. Possibly this religion formed when humans took over from Neanderthals in Europe. That death by burning features here (the Celts were known for this), is due to the ancient association of fire with their all-poweful moon goddess. Mel clearly sees fire as sacred to R'hllor , a sun god- but it's interesting that her metaphysic, R'hllor versus Great Other, corresponds to the God/Devil, Apollo/Dionysus duality of the pagans, representing the sun in the two halves of the solar year- the light half and dark half. The sun king was presided over by the moon, Queen of heaven, until the goddess was overturned in a spiritual coup that caused man's schism from from oneness of nature and spirit. Paganism became stranded in duality and divorced from the true magic. That this 'true magic' involves burning people alive to resurrect the sun is of course horrifying and unimaginable to a rational mind, although it makes sense if the actual death of the sun is imminent and only sacred blood magic can save the day. We would consider the mindset flawed, deluded, but Graves argues that it represents a harmony with nature that transcends the good/evil dichotomy of the rational mind.

Loved all your comments here, once again. Particularly enjoyed the explanation of pagan polytheism vs "monotheism," which is actually the second form of dualism where one side needs to have total victory to achieve peace. Of course the mother goddess and the bull god are the first known divinities; the story of Ba'al dying in the fall and being resurrected by the mother goddess to bring the sorting is the oldest of rituals.

Where I strongly, strongly disagree is that human sacrifice is the original intent of the esoteric mystery here. Strongly disagree. The death and rebirth is a metaphor - literal blood sacrifice is actually a gross misunderstanding of myth, whether in the case of the Celts, Aztecs, or anyone else. The core of theses legends are astronomy and esoteric knowledge. Only when later peoples come along and do not grasp the original intent do we get things like human sacrifice.

This is only my opinion, of course, I'm not claiming it as a matter of fact. But I do feel very strongly about this. The highest forms of real magic don't have anything to do with blood sacrifice, in my opinion, but rather consciousness elevated to a vibrational frequency at which other layers of reality become perceptible. This is achieved through a lifetime (or at least a good portion of it) spent in attaining mastery of the self and the mind, through ritual which creates a space outside of time, and most of all, by becoming a channel of the only true God energy - love - which connects the user to all people and all things.. the cosmos itself.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Mel is not a fire version of an Other. She's a fire wight. Since she can speak and act seemingly of her own free will, she is the fire equivalent of Coldhands (whom I have dubbed a Wight Watcher). Mel's the same as Beric, she can remember some of her past still, but she needs neither food nor sleep. That's a wight trait. Whereas the Others are another being entirely and not undead so far as we know.

Yes. The magic they are using in Asshai is not good and definetly not light.

And exactly how does one defeat evil if one knows nothing about it, hmm? I agree that the overall vibe of Asshai is one of bad, bad news, but undoubtedly some have gone there hoping to learn how to fix the problem. The question is...has anyone who has done that been able to withstand the temptation to turn to the dark side?

I will withhold judgment on shadowbinders as a whole until we know more. And I see no evidence that they all have to claim one specific religion, Starry Wisdom or otherwise.

[LmL]

Mel is not a fire version of an Other. She's a fire wight. Since she can speak and act seemingly of her own free will, she is the fire equivalent of Coldhands (whom I have dubbed a Wight Watcher). Mel's the same as Beric, she can remember some of her past still, but she needs neither food nor sleep. That's a wight trait. Whereas the Others are another being entirely and not undead so far as we know.

And exactly how does one defeat evil if one knows nothing about it, hmm? I agree that the overall vibe of Asshai is one of bad, bad news, but undoubtedly some have gone there hoping to learn how to fix the problem. The question is...has anyone who has done that been able to withstand the temptation to turn to the dark side?

I will withhold judgment on shadowbinders as a whole until we know more. And I see no evidence that they all have to claim one specific religion, Starry Wisdom or otherwise.

The closest thing to someone who may be studying magic in order to know how to destroy it would be certain Maesters at the Citadel. Obviously there are a few pretty well-fleshed out theories about the Citadel's involvement with killing the dragons. I also suspect that one Maesters who went to Hardhomme, lived there three years, came back to the Citadel, wrote down his observations, and then was last seen catching a ship for Eastwatch (and thus Hardhome). We aren't given the date of this event, but I certainly suspect that happened right before the big KABOOM there. Hardhome seems to have firewyrms at the least, so it's possible the citadel was training for the Doom, it has been suggested. The Faceless Men and the Maesters would seem natural allies in this regard.

And what about Maester Marwyn? He seems to be interested in helping Dany. He uses the glass candles to watch everything going on at the Wall, and therefore probably elsewhere. He's been to Asshai, and he may have been the one to hire the FM (Jaquen-Pate) to steal the key to the vault of the citadel, which of course contains the one last copy of some book about dragons which I forget the name of. At the end of AFFC he is literally on his way to take a ship and try to beat everyone to get to Dany, and we haven't seen him since. Now, I think that Marwyn is a Starry Wisdom follower, and thus he will be seeking to aid the return of dragons and shadow fire magic to the world - but what if he's not? What if he is simply the man you suggest - someone who has studied magic to know how to beat it? What if he's stolen that book to figure out how to kill dragons? I don't think this is the case, because he seems to appreciate the threat of the Others. Perhaps he sees the dragons as a necessary evil, and seeks to make sure they are only used against the Others and not to conquer Westeros. It's hard to say - I find him to be one of the most interesting side characters we have.

[LordImp]

Mel is not a fire version of an Other. She's a fire wight. Since she can speak and act seemingly of her own free will, she is the fire equivalent of Coldhands (whom I have dubbed a Wight Watcher). Mel's the same as Beric, she can remember some of her past still, but she needs neither food nor sleep. That's a wight trait. Whereas the Others are another being entirely and not undead so far as we know.

And exactly how does one defeat evil if one knows nothing about it, hmm? I agree that the overall vibe of Asshai is one of bad, bad news, but undoubtedly some have gone there hoping to learn how to fix the problem. The question is...has anyone who has done that been able to withstand the temptation to turn to the dark side?

I will withhold judgment on shadowbinders as a whole until we know more. And I see no evidence that they all have to claim one specific religion, Starry Wisdom or otherwise.

I agree that Mel can be a fire wight. But wights are raised by someone else , who raised Mel as a wight? Benerro? Quathie?

[Modesty Lannister]

Taking human seed and twisting it into a shadow that kills using dark magic is evil. Shadow binding has been classified as the darkest magic there is. Dark magic by default cannot be in the service of good. Intent is what makes magic dark. Dark intent, dark magic. Melisandre can pose as a septa, a red priestess, a virgin queen. It doesn't matter. She is a shadow binder. Her shadows kill. And they don't stop there, they corrupt the soul of the person whose seed was used to create a shadow baby - in her case Stannis. So, her destruction and corruption affect both the one who wished someone's death and the one who was actually killed.

[LmL]

Taking human seed and twisting it into a shadow that kills using dark magic is evil. Shadow binding has been classified as the darkest magic there is. Dark magic by default cannot be in the service of good. Intent is what makes magic dark. Dark intent, dark magic. Melisandre can pose as a septa, a red priestess, a virgin queen. It doesn't matter. She is a shadow binder. Her shadows kill. And they not stop there, they corrupt the soul of the person whose seed was used to create a shadow baby - in her case Stannis. So, her destruction and corruption affect both the one who wished someone's death and the one who was actually killed.

agree 100%

Edit: Modesty, you totally nailed that. I couldn't have said it half as well.

[Mithras]

Magic is evil. It is not simply a means to end.