Mithras Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Pfft. Dany would rise in 2. The ironborn rise instantly. Harder and stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I hate Jon Snow because he is a mind numbingly boring character. It is really as simple as that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Oh is it Jon vs Dany now? Let's see what I got... I don't criticize stories in terms of "plot gifts" and "mary sues." There are no such things as plot gifts. There is plot. Deal with it. Mary Sues are real, but the term appears to have become so saturated that it's lost all meaning, or has too many to matter. Basically, Mary Sue to me means "I don't like this character." Who is the better leader, king, queen, dragon rider, sword/whip wielder, warg/dreamer/fire/ice whatever... I don't really care to match up skill sets. For me, it will always just come down to who entertains me more and who I think is just the better written character. And that's Daenerys. I think her story is altogether more original and engaging than Jon's and her character is more rounded and sympathetic. Not to disparage Jon though. He does not bore me. He has depth. His story may look archetypal, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 He's boring and Gary Stu-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I like Jon the character, but despise the Messiah. We don't need a Messiah, we need good characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 To quickly address Daenerys, I know I should probably dislike her, but I don't. I think it's because she's actually suffered genuine hardship and up until ADWD is a proactive character. Daenerys does stuff, Jon has stuff done for him. A Mary Sue (Marty Sam/Gary Stu) is a character who the world warps itself to accommodate. Mary Sues can certainly screw up, but the point is that they never suffer meaningfully for it, they can have flaws, but those flaws never come into play or else serve to make them look cool. A Mary Sue is entitled via authorial fiat, because everything always works out for them in the end. And oh yes, Jon is a Sue. Other characters (Sam, Ygritte, Qhorin, Stannis) are always there to ensure he gets bailed out of sticky situations. He gets a cool sword for doing his job, a cool wolf, complete with associated pseudo-magical powers, and the Lord Commandership because Mormont, Mallister, and Cotter Pyke had their respective brains sucked out by the author. None of his alleged dilemmas are anything of the sort, as there is always a "correct" decision. His enemies are Slynt and Thorne, both of whom are organ-playing moustache-twirling caricatures, while his friends and acquaintances struggle to give some flavour to this most bland and passive of characters: Dolorous Ed is on hand to provide him with prosthetic wit, Sam with a prosthetic brain, and Ygritte with a prosthetic penis. And to top it all off, he may well be a hidden Targaryen heir. The word I'd use to sum up Jon Snow? Contrived.:lol: :lol: :lol: I simply find Jon dull, but I can't deny this made me laugh. Really? Dany lead her people through a desert ffs. :P(Ignore this quote, sorry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Jon is my favorite character,but i got to say there's quite a few people in this story that have had it and continue to have it just as hard or even worse than he does.In the end this arguement is totally in the eyes of the beholder. I wasn't trying to say Jon has had it hardest, just trying to point out that his story has not been the bed of roses a lot of his detractors describe it as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 omg hai Tagg! This so goddamn much. Every major POV got what people fling around as "plot gifts". And plot gifts don't exactly exist. A character receives progress in their arc or they don't. If they don't, they are pretty damn unexciting. I feel like those who complain about "plot gifts" do not know how story structure works. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Typer of Dorne Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 There are aspects of Jon's story I really enjoy (his time with Tyrion and with the Wildlings) but I do find Parts of his story at the wall a bit dull. I don't hate Jon, He seems to be one of the few characters who aren't purely out for there own advancement, but he's far from my most enjoyed character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divine_moose Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Disliking Jun Snew is countercultural and therefore cool; people will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Regardless of how story structure, plot gifts and Mary/Gary stu's are most accurately defined and supposed to work - if a character seems to get through situations in ways that feel generally implausible, it is poor suspension of disbelief and thus poor story telling. Jon and Dany do feel a world apart from the other characters in the ASoIaF saga, they do feel like they are special or protected in some way, they are on arcs that feel much more deliberate. The distinction, in their cases, has been created by the author, not reader interpretation. How can I tell? Because most people don't believe Jon is dead. If Jon was just another POV, like Ned, or Jamie, or Cat, or Arya, or even Tyrion - people would believe he was dead - the reason they don't is because Jon 'feels; like a special character and not as realistic a character as others in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 If you want to see a Gary Stu, go read one of Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan novels. Jon pales in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Jon and Dany do feel a world apart from the other characters in the ASoIaF saga, they do feel like they are special or protected in some way, they are on arcs that feel much more deliberate. The distinction, in their cases, has been created by the author, not reader interpretation. How can I tell? Because most people don't believe Jon is dead. If Jon was just another POV, like Ned, or Jamie, or Cat, or Arya, or even Tyrion - people would believe he was dead - the reason they don't is because Jon 'feels; like a special character and not as realistic a character as others in the story. Actually because there are a lot of indications that he is not dead. It has little to do with his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Re Jack Ryan, there aren't other POVs in his stories and they are presented with entirely different tones. LordStoneheart, Magic in this saga is a 'sword without a hilt' which basically means it's random, the way the world is set up there is no guarantee of anything. Jon could be dead and readers might think he was dead, if he wasn't on such a bog standard rite of passage arc, exactly like Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 There's plenty of reasons for disliking Jon. We've seen him whiny, entitled, inept, weak, etc, etc. In ADwD he does quite a few dumb things (in my opinion) and makes plenty of mistakes as far as leadership goes. However, he is one of my favorite characters too. He undergoes several changes (some good and some not so good). Those imperfections and the changes he makes make for an interesting and likable character. He has many redeeming qualities too but I only focused on the negative ones that often cause people to dislike Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Re Jack Ryan, there aren't other POVs in his stories and they are presented with entirely different tones. LordStoneheart, Magic in this saga is a 'sword without a hilt' which basically means it's random, the way the world is set up there is no guarantee of anything. Jon could be dead and readers might think he was dead, if he wasn't on such a bog standard rite of passage arc, exactly like Dany. With regards to JR, oh yes there are other POVs in his stories. A very large amount. Almost all of them are expendable and serve only to reflect upon the glory that is Jack Ryan, which further reinforces the point that he is a million times the Gary Stu that Jon is at his most Gary Stu-ish. Actually we think he's alive because he has not yet accomplished anything worthwhile in the story, and GRRM does not kill major characters who haven't fulfilled their purpose yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 He's the bastard of winterfell. No one likes bastards. Go on Maury and find your real parents instead of dulling up the books with your nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I like Jon. And I like Daenerys. I'm funny like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I like Jon. And I like Daenerys. I'm funny like that.Same here. It is possible. :cheers:I think the rarest minority are those that like Dany, Jon, and Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headless Wolf Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I like Jon a lot but he really doesn't get as much hate as some people seem to think. Characters like Dany, Cat, Sansa, Jaime, Tyrion, hell even Ned and Robb get more hate. We need to stop questioning why people feel the way they do about certain characters and just accept that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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