Why do so many people hate Jon Snow?

[Ser Triston Stark]

What an incredibly rude way to dismiss someone's opinion... for shame!

Jon's powers don't have drawbacks... while it may not bring him back perfectly, it'll have still saved him from certain death.

Bran's powers don't really have any as well, but the fact that's he's a crippled kid in the middle of nowhere kind of balances things out. I would have been glad if Bran was the only warg in the Stark family, it would have made it much more special.

Dany, on the other hand, is more handicapped by her visions than anything. She's pretty much unable to read into them properly and it makes her a bit paranoid. They are more there for the benefit of the reader, really.

I think you're just pissy at Jon cause Dany isn't as impressive. Doth I smell jealousy?

[The Wolves]

And why does people keep mentioning him being a warg when his 5 trueborn siblings are all one or the Valaryan steel sword that still hasn't really done anything at all for Jon's story, even Jon being a warg havent really been used much.

[David Selig]

Because he bores me to tears.

He can be a saint for all I care, if he bores me, I hate him. That's the way it goes for fictional characters.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which is an incredibly dumb reason to dislike something, but there you go.

Rather than dumb, it's a simplistic approach to the situation.

Jon is an ok character. Dislike him or shun him as boring is, imo, as silly as pretending Tywin is a nice guy we should cheer for. Dismissing him as one of the main characters is also foolish. He will play an important role at the end, and if someone doesn't like it, they're setting up for disappointment because he's, along with Bran, Dany and Arya (and more), one of the main "heroes" of the story.

Mostly of the dislike of Jon comes from the fact many fans seem to be unable to like more than one character at time, which is, imo, a flaw in this specific set of books where not only we have a lot of characters but none of them can be the "hero" alone. Maybe they are secretly fairies who can't have more than one feeling at the time. And, with the case of Jon, the conflict comes mostly from the side who seems not only unable to tolerate Dany will have a big spotlight during the final battle against the Others but that they insist Jon will even get her dragon, as though Dany's role in the books is nothing more than die and pass her dragon, the one she's bonding with, to him so he can prevail and triumph. Rather than dislike Jon, I think they dislike the image people have about him, an image that delegates Dany to a secondary anonymous contribution to the main storyline. The same can be seen in both sides when a possible relationship between them is mentioned. Dany fans are more likely to accept a possible endgame between them, while Jon fans would rather him to have any other lady but Dany, even Val who is a nobody. Personally, I think that's rather sexist, to want Jon to be with a woman who can't "steal" his spotlight rather than a strong independent woman with power of her own, but to each their own.

[rocksniffer]

Jon Snow dumped a red-headed hottie...a girl kissed by fire...

...he deserves to die a thousand deaths for that.

lucky he is a warg

:smoking:

[sj4iy]

Mostly of the dislike of Jon comes from the fact many fans seem to be unable to like more than one character at time, which is, imo, a flaw in this specific set of books where not only we have a lot of characters but none of them can be the "hero" alone.

I've been called both a Jon fan and a Jon hater, because I both praise and criticize his character.

The same goes for Dany and Tyrion.

In truth, I like all of them...they are all interesting and compelling characters, and their weaknesses make them more interesting than if they were without those flaws. I do like pointing out the flaws in them, which people often mistake for 'hate', but it's not anything of the sort. I just don't think it's fair to praise a character without looking at the other side of them, as well.

I have my own opinions, of course, and while I can't claim to be completely unbiased, I do try to see where other people are coming from. Which is why I can respect someone not liking Jon, Dany or Tyrion...but if they don't like them simply because of their popularity, well...there's nothing to go on there. There's no debate. They are popular because they are the main characters. But there's nothing to discuss because it's not a rational standpoint to start with...which is why I dismiss it out of hand.

[JonSnow4President]

I've been called both a Jon fan and a Jon hater, because I both praise and criticize his character.

The same goes for Dany and Tyrion.

In truth, I like all of them...they are all interesting and compelling characters, and their weaknesses make them more interesting than if they were without those flaws. I do like pointing out the flaws in them, which people often mistake for 'hate', but it's not anything of the sort. I just don't think it's fair to praise a character without looking at the other side of them, as well.

I have my own opinions, of course, and while I can't claim to be completely unbiased, I do try to see where other people are coming from. Which is why I can respect someone not liking Jon, Dany or Tyrion...but if they don't like them simply because of their popularity, well...there's nothing to go on there. There's no debate. They are popular because they are the main characters. But there's nothing to discuss because it's not a rational standpoint to start with...which is why I dismiss it out of hand.

You just hate Jon, you don't like him. Why else would you remove him as your avatar?

Speaking of which, I think it's time to go back to JCRB's masterpiece. Too bad it's saved on my personal laptop rather than my work one (for obvious reasons).

Off topic: What's the default font of the forum? Trying to change it back after the comic sans. Arial and Verdana seem too big, and Tahoma & Lucida just seem off. The rest are all serif-fonts.

[kimim]

He's the closest thing to a traditional Gary Stu-ish fantasy hero in a series where most characters are deconstructions of genre archetypes, not only that, but it seems like he might be the central character of the story, vexing people who might have enjoyed more focus on more nuanced characters. Not only that, but he is imbued by plot gifts, and is constantly put in situations where he can do no wrong, leading to cheap dilemmas with no interesting conclusions.

Also the plot bends around him to accommodate him, and out of all the characters, he's probably the one with the most ridiculous plot gifts.

Seriously, fuck Jon.

He's no Gary Stu. Nothing about Jon is dramatic: He hasn't suffered dramatically; Cat doesn't rise to the level of an evil stepmother. He's not an unbeatable swordsman; Mance as Rattleshirt takes him down publicly. He has his wolf, but so do Rickon, Bran, and Arya. He doesn't have a fire-dragon, or a stone dragon, or an ice dragon. You can't compare Bran's powers with Jon's. Bran is potentially the most powerful Stark, a near-god. Jon's powers are undeveloped. He's a warg, but hasn't perfected it yet, as he's not fond of supernatural stuff. That's pretty odd, given his location. He doesn't see the past and present, the way Bran can; if he could, Hardhome would never have happened.

Compare him with Dany:

Dany wants an army, goes "dracarys," and gets the Unsullied, the elite fighting force of Essos. She is hailed as a breaker of chains, a savior.

Jon wants an army, bargains with Stannis, who comments that his mother must have been a fishwife. He gets the wildlings, hardly an elite fighting force. He is not hailed.

Dany needs to feed her people. She conquers a city and becomes its queen.

Jon needs to feed his people. He bargains with Tycho Nestoris over gold with which to buy food, then demands that the wildlings hand over their precious possessions to pay off the loan.

Dany is, I agree, hindered by her obsession with prophecy.

Jon is hindered by his lack of trust in it. He notes that his sister never showed up, as proof that Mel is worthless. He fails to consider that Mel saw a grey girl on a dying horse, and misinterpreted the vision. So Jon doesn't pay attention to Mel's warnings, and gets stabbed. imo he's dead, and will return, having lost a little bit of his humanity. Dany, in contrast, jumps upon a dragon in an effort to save her children, flies it successfully, and is probably on the verge of adding khalasars to her fighting force.

Anyhow, I'm not surprised that many people are not fond of him, as he's not terribly exciting. Especially as the LC, he's a dark, cold, distant figure, whose most important actions involve BARGAINING instead of fighting. He reminds me of GRRM's remarks about Aragorn, who was never shown worrying over tax policy. Jon is shown worrying over something akin to tax policy--loans, and how to pay them off. He's a twist on the hero.

[Winter's Knight]

Because he bores me to tears.

He can be a saint for all I care, if he bores me, I hate him. That's the way it goes for fictional characters.

You're late-I expected you on page 1.

I want to ask: does anyone else dislike Jon because he's had it relatively easier than the others? I mean in Clash for instance you have Sansa navigating KL and being abused by Joff, Cat trying to keep Robb alive and mourning her husband,Arya trying to survive a warzone, Dany crossing the Red Waste and then we cut to Jon mourning his honour.

I think Jon's story in another book I might not have minded but it just contrasts so badly with the other PoVs for me.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Jon Snow is by far my favorite character in the books. He's brave and just, he beheads Janos Slynt, he tries to heal the schism between Wildlings and Southorners, he isn't cruel like Stannis plus he has a f*cking direwolf. A badass, bone breaking, face mauling direwolf. Yeah he may have been kind of annoying in the first book but after that he matures SO WELL into who he is now. He treats the Wildlings as people, no creatures. He sees the real threat, he is loved by a lot of the watch, and he has Longclaw. Why do people hate him so much?

For comic effect, I'm 90% certain. Just like Barney Stinson rooting for "the real Karate Kid". And Hans Gruber. And Terminator.

[Pod The Rod]

Getting resurrected afterwards (or not dying at all) certainly is.

Not to mention his magic pet, magic powers, magic sword, secret (and best) claim to the Iron Throne, and status as the freaking in-universe messiah.

Let's see here.

Magic pet? Sure, he has Ghost, just like Robb had Grey Wind, Sansa had Lady, Bran has Summer, Rickon has Shaggydog, and Arya has Nymeria. All the Stark children have direwolves, because they are ALL wargs. ALL of them. This isn't something that is unique to Jon.

Magic powers? See above. Jon isn't even the greatest master of his powers, that's Bran. He isn't even second, that's Arya. At most he is third in his demonstrated warging capability.

Magic sword? Yes, he has Longclaw. He recognizes that this is a great gift with great accompanying responsibility and trains constantly. And guess what? All that training has not produced the GOAT. He is a skilled swordsman, but Barristan or Garlan or Sandor would still hand him his ass. So not the unstoppable badass of lesser series.

His claim to the IT is only the best if FAegon is FAegon. Which, granted, he almost certainly is. However, do you honestly think that Jon would ever want to sit that throne? He constantly curses the day he became Lord Commander, do you think he will willingly sign up for a responsibility that is 1000x greater? He is a man of the Night's Watch, he made that decision back in Storm. He will live and die in black.

Azor Ahai? Ok, I'll give you this. But someone has to be. And it's not even a given, at least so far as I am concerned, that AA and TPTWP are the same person. I am inclined to think that Dany is the Prince, while Jon is Azor Ahai. Plenty of room for multiple people.

Edit: Jon isn't even my favorite character, more like third or fourth. But I am baffled at why anyone would actively not like him.

[brady10]

Yeah, you might want to check you avi before posting that.

[Sullen]

I think you need to take a long, long look at your avatar.

And what would those plot gifts be?

The eggs? Illyrio is filthy rich and needed Dany, Drogo, and Viserys's loyalties, he could spare the eggs.

The dragons waking up? No difference with the direwolves, except that Dany had to experience serious loss to get them.

Gifts at Qarth? She's an exotic ruler in exile, a curiosity, with literal legends as pets, receiving gifts from wealthy merchants isn't too out of the ordinary, just look at Jalabhar Xho.

The Unsullied? She slaughters the good part of a city to get them, and does so in an extremely underhanded manner.

Nothing near approaching the Old Bear giving away a priceless family heirloom (which could have easily been sold to help improve the Watch's pityful condition) to Jon just because he did his job, or Mance, a normally really astute man, falling into Jon's whole "I'm a bastard, poor me" act and letting him roam around, setting himself up to be betrayed... or the Watch electing a green boy commander, Sam shenanigans or not.

[Pod The Rod]

I really do hope that Jon and Dany end up together. It will be worth it just for all the heads that will explode across the internet.

[Sullen]

I really do hope that Jon and Dany end up together. It will be worth it just for all the heads that will explode across the internet.

That's second on my list of "Things that would make me stop reading ASoIaF", but I really think it'll happen.

[Crippledtank]

Jon snows character suffers from what I call the "ironman" effect

Everyone I know use to love ironman... Then the avengers movie happened and everyone watched him pretty much become the main character making their faves seem a little less important (for want of a better word)

He actually seems like a well balanced leader, the only weak side I see in his leadership is the way he treated marsh and other heads of the NW factions.

[JonSnow4President]

And what would those plot gifts be?

The eggs? Illyrio is filthy rich and needed Dany, Drogo, and Viserys's loyalties, he could spare the eggs.

The dragons waking up? No difference with the direwolves, except that Dany had to experience serious loss to get them.

Gifts at Qarth? She's an exotic ruler in exile, a curiosity, with literal legends as pets, receiving gifts from wealthy merchants isn't too out of the ordinary, just look at Jalabhar Xho.

The Unsullied? She slaughters the good part of a city to get them, and does so in an extremely underhanded manner.

Nothing near approaching the Old Bear giving away a priceless family heirloom (which could have easily been sold to help improve the Watch's pityful condition) to Jon just because he did his job, or Mance, a normally really astute man, falling into Jon's whole "I'm a bastard, poor me" act and letting him roam around, setting himself up to be betrayed... or the Watch electing a green boy commander, Sam shenanigans or not.

Oh, so explaining away plot gifts make them not plot gifts now?

Direwolves, I'll give you. However, Direwolves aren't inspiring thousands to follow Jon. There's also a massive difference between finding a wild animal (albeit, probably influenced through warging), and someone giving up almost immeasurably costly dragon artifacts, that could literally by an army and navy.

The sword. It's clear as day the Old Bear wants a son figure after Jorah's betrayal. Jon is one of the only young highborns going through, and isn't given the sword until after he saves Mormont's life, and shows an ass hair's worth of promise. I'll once again concede it's a plot gift. And he's used it to gain an army, sack citi... wait, what? It hasn't done shit so far? And not only that, but apparently since I can explain why Mormont would give it to him, it's not a plot gift.

Mance, I'll once again concede it could be done better (the show did). Without Mance's POV, I can't really speak to his motivations. My only thought is that he himself has seen how the wildlings lived, and considered it a better way, and that allowing Jon to see this could result in a valuable asset. Jon was also watched because Mance didn't trust him, and only managed to escape severely injured, almost lethally so.

The watch elected Jon as a compromise candidate, who had no desire to run, was not campaigning for himself, but was well liked. The power players realize they will never get it, and likely think they will be able to significantly influence the boy Lord Commander. Regardless, Jon is still in a cold, desolate, bleak situation, facing supernatural forces the world hasn't known for 8000 years. Now, he also has to lead the resistance to it. There's not nearly the step up that certain other characters receive.

I don't consider the dragons waking up as a plot gift. I do consider receiving the eggs as a massive plot gift (they become the source of her power, the reason people follow her, and are given to her for absolutely no logical reason, and no work of her own. Rich people don't stay rich by giving away frivolous, massively expensive gifts, especially to people they're planning to go off and die). Her not being slaughtered at the gates of Qarth, with her dragons not stolen is plot gift enough, let alone the rest of it. Her being clever and "underhanded" is an overstatement on the first part, and irrelevant on the latter. The complete stupidity of the Masters is the type of shortsightedness and lack of planning I would expect out of a 2 year old. If she gets the Dothraki in the next book, it will (likely) be another to add to the list.

I'm not going to deny Jon has gotten some. But they are NOWHERE as impactful as the silver haired queen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Methinks is that because their fav characters aren't as great as Jon.

[LordStoneheart]

I blame the internet for making average readers think reading about tropes makes them literary critics instead of just complainers. Case in point, the mary sue threads.

Methinks is that because their fav characters aren't as great as Jon.

I agree. Plus, there's the whole "I like bad characters because they're gritty and good characters are actually bad!" trend going on for the past few years.

[Crippledtank]

Methinks is that because their fav characters aren't as great as Jon.

Did you not see my "ironman" post just above :(