Heresy 164

[Phillip Frye]

I just went over to the other thread. Mark posted over there, and promptly got banned again. Better pick a less conspicuous new identity, Mark! I suggest Varmyr. Wouldn't that be a good second identity, Wolfmaid?

[Voice]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it almost seems as though the Heart of Winter is near Asshai

Mayhaps, by passing over the north pole.... but otherwise, they're pretty far apart.

Bran says that when he looks to Asshai, he sees the sunrise and looks beneath it to see dragons. When he then looks as far north as possible, he sees a curtain of light (the sunrise?), and beyond this curtain the heart of winter where something scares him. At the very least, he sees dragons stirring beneath the light at one end, and something else when he looks past the other light.

Curtain of light

Of course the big problem is then, why isn't Bran scared of the dragons at Asshai, but is scared of whatever he sees in the heart of winter, if they were actually the same thing?

Definitely two different things.

Mr(s). Garrison changed back? It's been awhile since I watched the show. If he's back to Mr. Garrison, there will be no more "scissoring".

Alas yes, the sphinx has a man's head again (*wink wink*).

I just went over to the other thread. Mark posted over there, and promptly got banned again. Better pick a less conspicuous new identity, Mark! I suggest Varmyr. Wouldn't that be a good second identity, Wolfmaid?

LOL what other thread? Mark's gone militant! Here I am responding to a man in exile!

[King Tyrion XX]

He did, but Armen the Acolyte makes it clear that no one has succeeded in lighting the glass candles during their night of vigil. If Luwin had succeeded, people would have known about it. So Luwin had to have failed to light the glass candle when he held his vigil. Which means that he either didn't try to light his candle (but knew that he could have), or he actually did try and failed to light the candle.

But either way, Luwin did not light the glass candle otherwise Armen wouldn't state that no one has succeeded. So if the assumption is that Luwin can do magic, then we know that he did not do it during his vigil.

Maybe he didn't tell anyone he lit it?

Eh. I prefer the idea that he started to see the light toward the end. Started believing those hearth tales.

[Black Crow]

Sure, he drew inspiration from it, but in real world animism people don't live 130 years in the roots of a tree and watch surveillance footage of ancient doings.

Interestingly I'm reminded that the great wizard Merlin was imprisoned forever in a hawthorn tree by the sorceress Nimue

[Black Crow]

Which finally leads me back to the sphinx: How could Aemon realize that the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler if his only new information was that Daenerys has hatched dragons? Well, it caused him to see some old information in a new light: Daenerys married Khal Drogo. The right breeding combination that solved the riddle in the end was female dragon and male stallion.

So you see, if the valyrian sphinx has a part of the stallion it is the riddle. Part dragon, part stallion and human and voilà the dragons are back.

Perhaps its simply he thought as the sphinx as we do as a riddler but then realised the riddle in the end is why the sphinx came to be.

[Black Crow]

True. Beric didn't raise himself from the dead, and he would have stayed dead if not for Thoros's last kiss. I say Thoros had the right stuff all along, but the magic had waned for too long to have the resurrection happen on any previous attempts. And it was just a rite to Thoros beforehand. The interesting part is that it happened in Westeros where other folks are rising from the dead, unlike Essos.

And, Coldhands seems a very similar version of Beric, yet frozen flesh in the act of decay instead of Thoros' mending lively body.

I agree that there appears to be a close parallel between Beric and Coldhands. There are also differences but I think that they can be explained by that business of Fire consumes while Ice preserves. Coldhands seems to be preserved as he was at death, while Beric is being consumed by the Fire that repairs and sustains him.

And here too I'd suggest another hierarchy of demons and that the difference between Coldhands and the Wights is that he has been raised, like Beric, by a human.

[Urrax2]

... Can't believe I mixed up Garrison for Mackey! ...

Sorry to be dense, but what show/book is this a reference to?

[Rhaegarslance]

Sorry to be dense, but what show/book is this a reference to?

Southpark

[Rhaegarslance]

Interestingly I'm reminded that the great wizard Merlin was imprisoned forever in a hawthorn tree by the sorceress Nimue

Really? The stories I've read involved caves or tombs and it was Morgana who imprisoned him. I'll admit though that I've read the condensed popular versions of Arthurian legend and not the real stuff though

Either way though the parallel is there.

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy.

Yes if you go back far enough it was Nimue otherwise the Lady of the Lake and although there are variations as to which tree or even whether it was a whole forest, the Hawthorn, which is of course fairly significant in magical terms seems to be the oldest version.

The point being of course [and the reason for my emphasis] is that the great sorcerer was decoyed and then imprisoned in the tree just as Bloodraven/Kurtz appears to be and as some of us suspect Bran may be.

[wolfmaid7]

He drags him self under a Weirwood to die and there he tells the Stark boys what to do. As he knew with his magical link that now only magic and the old Gods could safe them.

Welcome back Ida, it's been a while,missed the post about Sansa.Due to some unfortunate events we lost an entire thread that had some great analysis of her and where we think she's going.Definitely an intelligent girl.Her entire behavior as i was telling VOTFM reminds me of the Metamorph Camilla from Star Trek Next Generation.A woman who "becomes" what a man desires her to be.Sansa in a sense has played that part well and with this new chapter you see more and more of that emerging.I say she's the ultimate MockingJay.I had my doubts that she would have the chops to "out finger" Little Finger,but i see she has the makings to do just that.

Well, this is what I mean. The site has power, and someone is making use of it, and I'm leaning toward the notion of it being the NK, as you suggest. The reason I think Jon will be brought there is because I don't believe the NK is necessarily hostile to the modern Starks. Instead, I think he intends to get Jon to embrace the family words, in much the same way that Dany's final POV in aDwD is Quaithe encouraging her to remember who she is, in between bouts of bloody diarrhea.

Edit for further clarification: I'm not suggesting that the HoW simply changes people of its own accord, I think it needs an intermediary (NK, Pale Woman, w/e), much as Greenseers are intermediaries for weirnet.

I tend to use the term "Green"seer loosley and use the term Avatars alot because i think in all honesty Greenseer is the name the little tree huggers give their Avatar that's married to tree. I posted this in my conversation with Voice that the likes of the Stark crew and even Dany don't have to be married to a tree to be pretty bad ass.Jon for instance could be encased in ice or impaled on an ice spike as long as the are "ritualized" in that element it would work. What the little tree hugers did with Bran and BR is another reinterpretation of the Land(goddess) being married to her consort king.

As to the NK ,that role is just another one that gets passed down (KOW) . I also agree 100% that the NK is the other Avatar,the one for Winter.nd his demise was a bit of shitty thing to do,no doubt that account has a bit of lies.The one thing he and BR have is common was being betrayed and hurt,vengance and betrayal could make one's heart grow corrupt.

Fixed that for you.

:cool4:

I just went over to the other thread. Mark posted over there, and promptly got banned again. Better pick a less conspicuous new identity, Mark! I suggest Varmyr. Wouldn't that be a good second identity, Wolfmaid?

No more Varamyrs ...please no mas.

And here too I'd suggest another hierarchy of demons and that the difference between Coldhands and the Wights is that he has been raised, like Beric, by a human.

It may seem so,but i don't think CHs and Beric are even close at all. CHs doesn't seem that he was raised at all given his speech to Bran.I think and have said he is the embodiement of the Shrouded Lord,the Wight that isn't like the others.That parallel suits him,hence the reason i am pegging him as the NK.

I agree that Beric was raised,but again Thoros didn't play an active part nor was that his intention.So if it was not his intention it was that of someone else and for this for this one though i would say its more circumstantial and connecting of dots i am pegging BR.

Really? The stories I've read involved caves or tombs and it was Morgana who imprisoned him. I'll admit though that I've read the condensed popular versions of Arthurian legend and not the real stuff though

Either way though the parallel is there.

I was going to ask about this myself,i thought for sure it was Morgana myself.

[Rhaegarslance]

Welcome to Heresy.

Yes if you go back far enough it was Nimue otherwise the Lady of the Lake and although there are variations as to which tree or even whether it was a whole forest, the Hawthorn, which is of course fairly significant in magical terms seems to be the oldest version.

The point being of course [and the reason for my emphasis] is that the great sorcerer was decoyed and then imprisoned in the tree just as Bloodraven/Kurtz appears to be and as some of us suspect Bran may be.

My immediate thought would be the opposite concerning Bran actually.

If Bloodraven was tricked into the cave, then I assume that he'd want out. In which case he'd call for someone to come aid him, and we know that he called for Bran.

It's always been my biggest problem with the Merlin tales. He was tricked... and that's it? He's forever under the spell? You'd think that the greatest sorcerer in the land would be able to break the enchantment eventually or at least be able to weaken it enough that he could call for aid. We see that at least Bloodraven is physically stuck where he is, but mentally he was still able to reach out which is exactly what I always expected should have been what happened to Merlin.

[Black Crow]

But now that Bran is come to take his place he can at last die.

[Phillip Frye]

Yes if you go back far enough it was Nimue otherwise the Lady of the Lake and although there are variations as to which tree or even whether it was a whole forest, the Hawthorn, which is of course fairly significant in magical terms seems to be the oldest version.

The point being of course [and the reason for my emphasis] is that the great sorcerer was decoyed and then imprisoned in the tree just as Bloodraven/Kurtz appears to be and as some of us suspect Bran may be.

Anáil nathrach orth bhais betha, do cheol déanta.

[Rhaegarslance]

Anáil nathrach orth bhais betha, do cheol déanta.

http://www.awolfamongwolves.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/spanish.gif

[King Tyrion XX]

Would be cool to see Bloodraven do something before he dies.

What is a greenseer's death like? Will he suddenly gain the ability to communicate through trees and talk to his brother or sister as he dies? Almost like a dream where it might only be a few seconds but to him it feels much longer.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps he's already dead.

[King Tyrion XX]

Meaning Bloodraven's body is just an avatar?

[wolfmaid7]

The impression i got from Leaf denoted a different form of life to eventually befalling BR.The bolded below tells me that death is not the outcome only a different form of existence inside the tree.

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."...........

"But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. "

So while his body falls apart he is drawn into the trees.I would think that for a man like BR the above would be very acceptable and enticing.

If we look at the human soul or spirit as energy we see how the law of conservation of energy looks a lot more like a GSs end.

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. However, energy can change forms, and energy can flow from one place to another.

[Matthew.]

I think we've already seen the concept of the GS going into the trees but not being fully dead play out. When Bran is exploring BR's cave in Hodor's body, he comes across a room filled with greenseers that look dead, but some of them stir awake when he passes with a torch. I'm assuming that so long as the weirwood lives, a GS doesn't truly die, it just becomes increasingly difficult to stay lucid in the waking world.