Heresy 164

[WhitewolfStark]

I agree very largely but only up to a point. As I've said earlier I don't actually think that the children are Ice as such - in the ordinary course of events - but rather that when faced by an external threat to their neutrality they are forced to counter it by calling upon the "dark magics" of Ice, a sword without a hilt.

A useful real-world parallel here might be continental Europe in the 1930s and the early 1940s where those who were essentially neutral found themselves caught between the twin perils of Fascism and Communism and forced to choose for the sake of survival. Something not readily appreciated is that the level of volunteering for German sponsored units actually rose after the defeat at Stalingrad not because the deluded fools were suddenly enamored of Fascism but because they saw the threat of Communism as far worse.

I therefore don't have a problem with the concept of the "neutral" tree-huggers calling upon the dark magics of Ice when threatened by the Fire destroying their weirwoods.

I was talking more about how they're typical expressions of Romance mythos Bomolochoi (and the critique of such archetypes), but if you want to take into how the CotF might be able to "balance things out" by being a "deciding vote" but otherwise neutral, I can go along with that.

And conversely they might use flame balls to hold back Ice when it gets too powerful?

Another point to that critique of Romance mythos archetypes, Melisandre is herself a combination of two usually diametricly opposed archetypes into one being: the chaste high priestess & the seductive evil witch. She instead meets somewhere in between. And if that's the case with her, we should likely expect other combos which combine two conflicting archetypes into one person.

[Voice]

I think the point here is that its not his body which is paying the price but his soul.

I don't think his soul ever returned to his body in order to pay any fees... Rather, I'm suggesting his body alone was reawakened, without a soul to inhabit it. Quite the opposite of Coldhands, who's body is dead, yet his soul returned to it. In Beric's case, he experiences life alone. Colorless, soul-less life. Hence why he feels less and less emotion and identity with each resurrection.

The soul carries nothing, if not identity...

Plus Thoros first revived Beric at the Mummer's Ford... which is a place where we have nothing to suggest so far that there are any weirwood trees nearby. So how would Bloodraven have played a role here?

Fair point.

Sigh....Watch my wording i purposefully said " Raised"

Somehow you are taking away something different than what i'm saying.I never said he's 'covering" for BR your words denote knowledge and partnership.I said that ritual provided him with anonymity because at the end of it Thoros believes that the Red God did it.

Um, you implied Thoros was a cover for someone... Here's your quote:

This the same thinking that perpetuated the incorrect conclusion that the wws raised the dead.Thoros has told us point blank he's done this ritual twice before and has stated he's never had this happen or seen it happen.Ergo he is NOT the variable.Yet you concluded that because of proximity despite what we know Thoros had something to do with it.Yeah he was cover for who did.

I will agree to disagree on what Leaf's statement is inferring.

:cheers:

You come away with Beric's life paying for his own life on the basis that he's a living soul.I'm scratching my head with that one..That sounds like CPR to me.

Who? Me? I never made that argument. I've suggested to others who have that it doesn't make any sense. How can you pay for your own resurrection with your own life? If that were possible, no one ever need die... ever. It's like the powerstrip plugged into itself as a form of renewable energy. Doesn't work.

My argument is that nothing at all paid for Beric's life... that the "only death may pay for life" mantra is applicable to blood magic alone. Not all magics require willing or unwilling sacrifices.

About Beric's time being minor,i agree with you.He in himself wasn't important the fact that we are shown like an infection his flame was passed on to another is what's important.

Possible. Time will tell if Lady Stoneheart is important. I think she will harry the Riverlands and nothing more. She seems focused on the Freys. Not sure why Bloodraven would feel compelled to kill Freys...

So let me ask you Voice.

1.Who or what do you think the Old Powers are...Go back to Qhorin's message to Mormont

2.Once you come back with who and what the Old powers are ask again if Thoros is responsible for raising Beric.

1. I think the old powers are old powers... fantastical forms of potential energy. As they grow, so too do the abilities of those with connections to them.

2. I'm back already :) and yes, I think Beric's resurrection is the result of these fantastical forms of potential energy growing stronger. Thoros gave him the kiss. It never worked that way before, but this time it did, because Thoros was connecting to a power that was far stronger than the last time he performed the rite. The result itself was unintended. Just as half-forgotten demons are sending wights to attack the Fist, so too are half-forgotten (but ever-growing) powers raising the dead in the Riverlands.

I rather suspect its a matter of semantics. The old powers are awakening because magic is returning, not the other way around. And its because the magic is returning that Thoros accidentally breathed "life" into Beric, not because the old powers are awakening - unless of course you want to use old powers as a synonym not for the old gods but for magic itself in the sense that the powers which priests and sorcerers once possessed are returning.

It is somewhat a semantic debate. I am prone to them LOL

But I see it quite the other way around, I think magic is returning because the old powers are awakening. One old power is the Others. Another old power is Dragons. Because of their awakening, particularly the latter, we are seeing magical abilities magnified greatly throughout the world.

Ahhh but Weirwood trees are not the only conduit available is it?

Go back to Mels's visions i'm using her as an example ,where she's divining through her flames...was what was on the otherside able to reach her?

Was BR for instance able to see her,through the portal she opened(her flames)? This is the one act we know they all can do,divine through their flames.The one corridor that can allow someone to reach through.

Mel maybe arrogant and manipulative but the one thing she hasn't done is lie about what can be done through the flames.Its an unsafe medium in this world.

How are Mel's abilities relevant in a discussion of BR's abilities?

[Armstark]

Tyrion describes the Valyrian sphinx as a dragon body and human head. I think if a third animal were included, he would identify it.

Tyrion was also very drunk and not his usual observent self. Plus a stallion's tail or hooves would be har to notice.

Beric did not rise until receiving the kiss from Thoros. Therefore, Thoros had a hand in his resurrection.

My contention has been that no sacrifice was offered to pay for Beric's life. Blood sacrifices and the "only death may pay for life" mantra are only applicable to blood magic. In this way, I think Thoros has distinguished himself from Mel. Mel is hungry for blood, especially royal blood, for her machinations. Thoros isn't. He humbly roams with Robin Hood and his merry men... erm... I mean the Brotherhood without Banners... kissing Beric along their merry way, and performing a feat we've not seen from Mel (who seems more of a shadowbinder and blood mage than a red priestess).

Beric and Coldhands:

snip

Very nice, I like your classification. Wasn't there a child-wight in the prologue though or was that only in the show?

This can't be right though for a few reasons i think.

1. Mel and her ilk in their part of the world never lost their powers.Mirri didn't just suddenly do what she did.Magic has always been around.Even in Westeros beyond the Wall magic still was.BR never halted his watch,skinchangers still existed,prophetic dreams still occured.So magic was never gone.

The only reason why its seems as if magic is returning because for the longest time we haven't had those with magical abilities South of the Wall,or those with magical abilities in proximity to their triggers.What we are seeing is a concentration of magical individuals in Westeros.They are being drawn here.If the Red lot went away,the Direwolves were exiled North and no eggs reached Dany and no dreams came to the Starks it would seem as if there's no magic.

2.The Old powers cannot be interchangeble with magic,Qhorhin is speaking not only specifically but of something that was and is again.Jon's dream and "how" he was able to see and the very mention of Weirwood trees with eyes was the warning.They are the Old powers.

which brings me back to the point with Thoros and if 'he" really did anything to raise Beric?

Magic was never gone but there can be no doubt that magic is stronger now than it was before the start of the story. It is not a matter of there being more magical individuals around.

There is the guy in Qarth who suddenly can climb the fiery ladder.

The pyromancer's spells work better than before.

Mel is more powerful too although she attributes it to the Wall (wrongly in my opinion).

All these charachters were maigcal proficient individuals before who are more powerful now.

Edit: Regarding the Old powers: here is how Tyrion understands the term:

For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?"

"Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?"

[Black Crow]

Wasn't there a child-wight in the prologue though or was that only in the show?

Just in the show

[Voice]

I was talking more about how they're typical expressions of Romance mythos Bomolochoi (and the critique of such archetypes), but if you want to take into how the CotF might be able to "balance things out" by being a "deciding vote" but otherwise neutral, I can go along with that.

And conversely they might use flame balls to hold back Ice when it gets too powerful?

Another point to that critique of Romance mythos archetypes, Melisandre is herself a combination of two usually diametricly opposed archetypes into one being: the chaste high priestess & the seductive evil witch. She instead meets somewhere in between. And if that's the case with her, we should likely expect other combos which combine two conflicting archetypes into one person.

When does Mel ever act the chaste high priestess? She's always the seductive evil witch. And if she falls anywhere between the two, it's far closer to the latter. Close enough for the latter to be her shadow ;)

[Black Crow]

I don't think his soul ever returned to his body in order to pay any fees... Rather, I'm suggesting his body alone was reawakened, without a soul to inhabit it. Quite the opposite of Coldhands, who's body is dead, yet his soul returned to it. In Beric's case, he experiences life alone. Colorless, soul-less life. Hence why he feels less and less emotion and identity with each resurrection.

The soul carries nothing, if not identity...

No, Beric's soul is there but more of it was consumed with each resurrection. If the soul was gone completely he would be a mere wight and I think that was exactly what he feared at the end, which is why he passed on the curse rather than let it consume him entirely

[Black Crow]

I was talking more about how they're typical expressions of Romance mythos Bomolochoi (and the critique of such archetypes), but if you want to take into how the CotF might be able to "balance things out" by being a "deciding vote" but otherwise neutral, I can go along with that.

And conversely they might use flame balls to hold back Ice when it gets too powerful?

Another point to that critique of Romance mythos archetypes, Melisandre is herself a combination of two usually diametricly opposed archetypes into one being: the chaste high priestess & the seductive evil witch. She instead meets somewhere in between. And if that's the case with her, we should likely expect other combos which combine two conflicting archetypes into one person.

I agree as to the conflicting archetypes and suggest that is exactly the point about the children who ought to be neutral as Earth archetypes but yet it would appear are prepared to sup with the devil by invoking the dark magics of Ice.

[Voice]

Tyrion was also very drunk and not his usual observent self. Plus a stallion's tail or hooves would be har to notice.

He wasn't drunk enough to miss noticing it was a Valyrian-style sphinx...nor that it had a woman's head.

Very nice, I like it. Wasn't there a child-wight in the prologue though or was that only in the show?

:cheers: And yup, as BC said, only in the show. The absence of child wights is strange indeed. Methinks they've more use for the blood of innocents than they do for those of the aged.

[Armstark]

Just in the show

Ah okay, thank you. I still find it unlikely though that they took other babies/childs than Craster's.

[Voice]

double post

[WhitewolfStark]

@Voice of the First Men (my original post was lost with a Servor overload--that's been happening more often these past two days), luckily I copied before hitting post:

That title is more a title of the archetype, but to explain my reasoning:

The fact that she is a priestess of a religion and does all these things out of an interpretation of her relgion. An actual evil seductive witch would be doing this all to increase her own power, and while we may all disagree how much she'll benefit in her religion from finding and aiding Azor Ahai, in the end she knows that she has a part to play in fighting against the "Great Other" which she considers to be her role over all--with her seductive and magic parts simply there to aid her in achieving that goal in fighting and aiding Azor Ahai.

While I'll admit she's definitely a bit more on the evil seductive side than the good chaste side, there are aspects of both in her character, which is what makes her much more interesting than either one or the other.

[Armstark]

He wasn't drunk enough to miss noticing it was a Valyrian-style sphinx...nor that it had a woman's head.

Well, those are the obvious features. :cool4:

[Voice]

@Voice of the First Men (my original post was lost with a Servor overload--that's been happening more often these past two days), luckily I copied before hitting post:

That title is more a title of the archetype, but to explain my reasoning:

The fact that she is a priestess of a religion and does all these things out of an interpretation of her relgion. An actual evil seductive witch would be doing this all to increase her own power, and while we may all disagree how much she'll benefit in her religion from finding and aiding Azor Ahai, in the end she knows that she has a part to play in fighting against the "Great Other" which she considers to be her role over all--with her seductive and magic parts simply there to aid her in achieving that goal in fighting and aiding Azor Ahai.

While I'll admit she's definitely a bit more on the evil seductive side than the good chaste side, there are aspects of both in her character, which is what makes her much more interesting than either one or the other.

I hear ya. GRRM never writes simplistically good or evil characters (except Ramsay perhaps). Mel preaches about the Great Other, but in her own POV, she seems far more occupied with her power and image.

Well, those are the obvious features. :cool4:

And a dragon with the arse of a horse isn't obvious?! LOL

I'm not against the idea, I just don't think we can say Tyrion missed something that was likely there. We've nothing to suggest Valyrians sphinxes are composed of three species. Adding stallion to the mix is intriguing of course, it just isn't something we can assume.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think his soul ever returned to his body in order to pay any fees... Rather, I'm suggesting his body alone was reawakened, without a soul to inhabit it. Quite the opposite of Coldhands, who's body is dead, yet his soul returned to it. In Beric's case, he experiences life alone. Colorless, soul-less life. Hence why he feels less and less emotion and identity with each resurrection.

The soul carries nothing, if not identity...

Fair point.

Um, you implied Thoros was a cover for someone... Here's your quote:

:cheers:

Who? Me? I never made that argument. I've suggested to others who have that it doesn't make any sense. How can you pay for your own resurrection with your own life? If that were possible, no one ever need die... ever. It's like the powerstrip plugged into itself as a form of renewable energy. Doesn't work.

My argument is that nothing at all paid for Beric's life... that the "only death may pay for life" mantra is applicable to blood magic alone. Not all magics require willing or unwilling sacrifices.

Possible. Time will tell if Lady Stoneheart is important. I think she will harry the Riverlands and nothing more. She seems focused on the Freys. Not sure why Bloodraven would feel compelled to kill Freys...

1. I think the old powers are old powers... fantastical forms of potential energy. As they grow, so too do the abilities of those with connections to them.

2. I'm back already :) and yes, I think Beric's resurrection is the result of these fantastical forms of potential energy growing stronger. Thoros gave him the kiss. It never worked that way before, but this time it did, because Thoros was connecting to a power that was far stronger than the last time he performed the rite. The result itself was unintended. Just as half-forgotten demons are sending wights to attack the Fist, so too are half-forgotten (but ever-growing) powers raising the dead in the Riverlands.

It is somewhat a semantic debate. I am prone to them LOL

But I see it quite the other way around, I think magic is returning because the old powers are awakening. One old power is the Others. Another old power is Dragons. Because of their awakening, particularly the latter, we are seeing magical abilities magnified greatly throughout the world.

How are Mel's abilities relevant in a discussion of BR's abilities?

I implied Thoros was a cover yes,not that he is providing that knowingly which is how you made it sound to be honest.I don't know what role Lady Stoneheart would play,but again you misunderstand me.She isn't my concern the fact that Beric was able to pass this flame on like an infection is what's important.

This has nothing to do with Mel's ability,you are missing it again. It has to do with Fire as a conduit.A divining tool was enacted (fire) which not only allow Mel to see but what was on the otherside of the looking glass came through.

Any time one of these fires are started by a Mel or Thoros who is to say some power isn't reaching through.That's what i'm getting at.

Tyrion was also very drunk and not his usual observent self. Plus a stallion's tail or hooves would be har to notice.

Very nice, I like your classification. Wasn't there a child-wight in the prologue though or was that only in the show?

Magic was never gone but there can be no doubt that magic is stronger now than it was before the start of the story. It is not a matter of there being more magical individuals around.

There is the guy in Qarth who suddenly can climb the fiery ladder.

The pyromancer's spells work better than before.

Mel is more powerful too although she attributes it to the Wall (wrongly in my opinion).

All these charachters were maigcal proficient individuals before who are more powerful now.

Edit: Regarding the Old powers: here is how Tyrion understands the term:

For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?"

"Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?"

I don't know about the fire ladder,but the point of contention is being missed.I do believe Mel is stronger because of being on the Wall,but you don't so we can't use that.Ever other example you used are of people who already possed said power.The Red Lot has never had the power to raise the dead.Hence Thoros's suprise,you can't be better at something you never had or possed as a skill.

That quote doesn't quite depict Tyrion's understanding he's asking for clarification which means he doesn't really know what or who the Old Powers are.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

No, Beric's soul is there but more of it was consumed with each resurrection. If the soul was gone completely he would be a mere wight and I think that was exactly what he feared at the end, which is why he passed on the curse rather than let it consume him entirely

Agree. And nice observation about slowly becoming a wight.

It is a co-op. Thoros performed the magic and Beric paid the price.

[Voice]

Any time one of these fires are started by a Mel or Thoros who is to say some power isn't reaching through.That's what i'm getting at.

Sure I understood. I just don't think that power 'reaching through' is BR. I attribute the kiss that awoke Beric to Thoros tapping in to the general increase of the powers that be.

Agree. And nice observation about slowly becoming a wight.

It is a co-op. Thoros performed the magic and Beric paid the price.

Thing is, wights aren't created very slowly. And Beric paying the price for his own resurrection doesn't really add up. Otherwise, Thoros of Myr could raise everyone and anyone back from the dead. Every corpse in the Riverlands would be a potential fire-wight, which as awesome as that sounds, hasn't played out.

[wolfmaid7]

Just finished watching the episode,heretical tones

I think it was Mark who theorized that

Qyburn would be using a Dwarf's head for Robert Strong

.The show seems to be hinting that's where it might be going.

Also did anyone else catch

The curious symbol of Sansa's necklace?

[wolfmaid7]

Sure I understood. I just don't think that power 'reaching through' is BR. I attribute the kiss that awoke Beric to Thoros tapping in to the general increase of the powers that be.

Think about this for a bit,you say Thoros was "tapping" into the increase in power right? That's why he was able to ressurrect Beric.Then his tapping skills be fickled because why specifically did it go so far as to kick in only when Beric died?Why couldn't he have healed Beric before he died?You know with the other skill the Red Priest are skilled at .That tapping only occured convienantly when he died doesn't seem at all strange to you?

Hmmm ok to each his own.

[King Tyrion XX]

Agree. And nice observation about slowly becoming a wight.

It is a co-op. Thoros performed the magic and Beric paid the price.

Bingo.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Sure I understood. I just don't think that power 'reaching through' is BR. I attribute the kiss that awoke Beric to Thoros tapping in to the general increase of the powers that be.

Thing is, wights aren't created very slowly. And Beric paying the price for his own resurrection doesn't really add up. Otherwise, Thoros of Myr could raise everyone and anyone back from the dead. Every corpse in the Riverlands would be a potential fire-wight, which as awesome as that sounds, hasn't played out.

But he hasn't tried to raise anyone else. Right? Beric would not be a northern wight, but if he slowly lost his humanity after numerous resurrections then he would be very similar to a wight. Right

Norther lights - northern wights? :)

I don't know what exactly happens in story with necromancy although I do believe the sword without a hilt rings true. Greenseers, Mel, Faceless Men et. al. have paid for it in some way, whether in the past, present or future. The tighter the grip on said sword, the deeper the damage.

I think Victarion has a similar experience to Beric's. Different, yes. Victarion was still alive. But I believe he gave up something of himself to be healed and Beric gave up even more because he was no longer alive.

I know you have different interpretations of all this, and I like your layout. But I don't totally agree with the Beric part.

I do believe it all involves second lives and that is why Westeros is the place for such happenings.

Still not sure how the wights come into play. It may be that their spirits/lives are being used in some way we have yet to see. Forced Sacrifices.