Heresy 164

[TheSmallOther]

Given Rhaegar's interest in prophecy the business of the rubies may be a reflection of that in that they could be considered red stars. That doesn't necessarily make him a secret follower of R'hllor; I think that's made clear in the way that although they are supposedly dealing with the same prophecy they are not necessarily viewed in the same way.

At a simple level both Catholics and Protestants are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.

Well, I agree that Targaryens didn't have such clear religion as red priests. But they definately believe in power of fire and dragons and these are just tools in the hands of R'hllor. I mean, if one would choose to follow Mel's view on the world as big battlefield between Lord of Light and Great Other then dragons, albeit being very powerful beings, are just bigger pawns on the board. Most likely Rhaegar cared about prophecies and dragons and didn't give a thought about R'hllor. Or maybe his wish to become a warrior was more crusader-style, i.e., like knight and monk at the same time. Something, what was common in middle ages.

<just a silly guess>

Or perhaps he looked into the fire, misinterpreted it (as most of red priests do), and decided "Lord of Light gave me rubies, I must be invincible. At least I was in Harrenhal. Let's put them on my armour and ride to face Robert".

[Matthew.]

Nothing in here says that the Ghost of High Heart prophesied that the prince that was promised would come from their line. Barristan only says that she told Jaehaerys that he would. It's assumed that she therefore prophesied this, but we are never actually told this from the text. For all we know she told Jaehaerys this just so that he would assure that the line of succession was secure so that Duncan didn't have to abandon Jenny, her friend, should he suddenly be called upon to take the throne because Aegon, Jaehaerys, and Aerys all died.

Until we have confirmation that the Ghost said this because she'd received a vision/dream telling her this information, we have no reason to believe that this line means anything prophetic. Because only her dreams/visions are prophetic and we aren't told that that's where she got this information.

No, we don't know absolutely that it was the GoHH, or have absolute confirmation that it was a prophecy (which would be nearly impossible to know absolutely without a GoHH POV chapter), but with all due respect, that seems an unnecessarily cautious standard to apply to what is, by it's nature, a highly speculative discussion, and I think would make any such conversations extremely tedious.

Sure, the line could have been incorrect, or misleading, but I think GRRM was showing some faith that the reader would infer the correct 'substance' of the line--that the PtWP will come of the line of Aerys II and Rhaella, and that we might be better served to debate which of the various known and potential descendants of that line might fit the bill, as opposed to going down the road of wondering whether or not a woods witch in contact with the Targaryens was specifically the GoHH, whether she was offering a vision or just saying conciliatory words, and whether or not the story itself is just hearsay and rumor, all of which are conversational dead ends.

[diskoerekto]

talking about Rhllor and prophesies and stuff, do we know / have any idea how Mel and Stannis first met (I mean, how/when did Mel decide Stannis was the "one"?) or how did Stannis end up with Lightbringer?

[Black Crow]

My understanding is that it was a cock-up. The first we hear of her is in the Small Council where its reported that Stannis has hired in a shadow-binder from Asshai. That Stannis would do such a thing is unlikely but there are essentially two alternatives, one being that Selyse invited her but the other and more likely is that Mel invited herself.

Why?

Because she was looking to dish Benero and the rest of the high priced help in the temple by being the one to identify Azor Ahai. Dragonstone we're told twice in about as many pages is a smoking island in the midst of the salt sea. Azor Ahai will be born again amidst smoke and salt when the red star bleeds. So easy-peasy and blindingly obvious that Stan is the Man.

Oh course GRRM might pull a flanker by revealing in the end that she was right all along and that Stannis really is Azor Ahai, but somehow I doubt it.

[Black Crow]

Well, I agree that Targaryens didn't have such clear religion as red priests. But they definately believe in power of fire and dragons and these are just tools in the hands of R'hllor. I mean, if one would choose to follow Mel's view on the world as big battlefield between Lord of Light and Great Other then dragons, albeit being very powerful beings, are just bigger pawns on the board. Most likely Rhaegar cared about prophecies and dragons and didn't give a thought about R'hllor. Or maybe his wish to become a warrior was more crusader-style, i.e., like knight and monk at the same time. Something, what was common in middle ages.

Ah but the point I was making that thinking in terms of R'hllor is playing Mel's game and assuming that she's right. Yes there is power in Fire but just because Mel believes in R'hllor is doesn't mean that we really are engaged in a battle between R'hllor and the Great Other. That's not literally true but rather how the Red lot articulate it.

Rhaegar may indeed have seen himself as being Fire against Ice but he had no need to believe in R'hllor far less be a tool of R'hllor in order to play his part as a champion of Fire. Given the opportunity he might just as easily have been Mel's bitterest enemy.

In terms of Fire you can't get much more fiery than old Valyria yet Benero and the Red Lot were last seen preaching against the Old Blood of Valyria in Volantis.

[King Tyrion XX]

One thing that helps with the Stannis is AA deception is at the time it is at the forefront of the reader's mind that Stannis is the rightful King of Westeros at the time.

[wolfmaid7]

Interesting and puzzling, because clearly for a while there Rhaegar and Aemon believed that the circumstances of Summerhall covered part of it - salt and smoke at least - but we have no indication thus far that there was a comet or a particularly long winter circa 259 to kick it off. However, he must have made some retroactive connections after finding the prophecy and deciding to become a warrior.

But wait, something's still missing! Where's the sword?

If Rhaegar was still under the impression that he fit the bill in 280/281, it makes me wonder if his post-tourney walkabout *during the return of the cold breath of darkness* was actually a visionquest to find Lightbringer and force the rest of the prophecy. 'Setting out with 6 companions' in the Riverlands certainly sounds like a Great Adventure (cue LoTR theme music) to me, with the Lyanna thing being incidental to the overall expedition.

Of course, that gets tricky considering that Aegon had arrived on scene somewhere in that time frame and became the new PtwP, but I know we've gone over the wonkiness of his birth timeline too and speculated on whether or not there really was an Aegon.

Yeah this was kind of a spoke in the wheel that threw things off regarding Aegon's birth.Though the wiki puts his birth at KL.No where in the text says where he was born.We get that Rhaenys was born DS but that just add more fuel to my theory that there was a lot of musical chairs going on with babies including one that covers a baby that never was.

There's a lot missing from this,i mean very few if any of these signs seem to pertain to him.The signs stated for AA doesn't seem to be the same for TPTWP.For which one of these heroes was the whole Salt and smoke for again? I forget,it seems they just mismatch some s**t.

i dont think the sphinx has anything to do with the prophesy i just think he's referring to Alleras whom Sam is about to run in to and was maybe in Aemon's dreams via glass candle. And i think its pretty obvious Alleras is Sarella Sand so a girl playing the part of a boy could be the riddle he's referring to

I think the riddle of the Sphinx has more to do with the union of Dragon and man....The bond.

Given Rhaegar's interest in prophecy the business of the rubies may be a reflection of that in that they could be considered red stars. That doesn't necessarily make him a secret follower of R'hllor; I think that's made clear in the way that although they are supposedly dealing with the same prophecy they are not necessarily viewed in the same way.

At a simple level both Catholics and Protestants are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.

In this case although Mel is proclaiming the coming again of Azor Ahai and says he is the Prince that was Promised, she makes no mention of the Trinity supposedly required for the Targaryen version.

In that connection too; 300 years ago Aegon came, saw and conquered with the aid of his two sisters/wives. In requiring that there be three heads of the dragon is this reflecting Aegon's bigamous incest, or was he consciously acting out the prophecy and in conquering Westeros did he think that he was the Prince?

I've thought of this too and wondered what Aegon and his sister wives have to do with it.In other words how does the Dragon having three heads or the Dragon at all have to do with that prophecy.

True enough, but assuming that Rhaegar had been jousting for the last 4 days in that armour, it might have lost its intimidation factor by the final day. Unless of course he wheeled it out only on the last day. But I doubt Arthur or Barristan would have felt anything knowing they were jousting against Rhaegar seeing as they trained with him and had competed against each other before. Brandon and Yohn also don't seem to be guys who would suddenly be intimidated. We don't know who else he jousted against other than 2 other KG, but it doesn't seem like these guys at least would be intimidated.

This isn't actually true.

Nothing in here says that the Ghost of High Heart prophesied that the prince that was promised would come from their line. Barristan only says that she told Jaehaerys that he would. It's assumed that she therefore prophesied this, but we are never actually told this from the text. For all we know she told Jaehaerys this just so that he would assure that the line of succession was secure so that Duncan didn't have to abandon Jenny, her friend, should he suddenly be called upon to take the throne because Aegon, Jaehaerys, and Aerys all died.

Until we have confirmation that the Ghost said this because she'd received a vision/dream telling her this information, we have no reason to believe that this line means anything prophetic. Because only her dreams/visions are prophetic and we aren't told that that's where she got this information.

I did a bit on this in the Wildling thread it concerned the possible motive of the Woods witch in this.I agree with you in that she didn't see this possibly.I think there was some ploy to steer breeding in a certain direction.

When the star(S) bleed...

We have already seen one star bleed, we are waiting for the 2nd occurrence of the bleeding star, which will usher Azor Ahi into the story & will resolve all the magic that is not yet understood from the end of AGOTs (the Great Wolf & Burning Man Dancing in Dany's Tent)...

I'm almost hoping that Khal Ned is true just to see the forum collapse.

[diskoerekto]

My understanding is that it was a cock-up. The first we hear of her is in the Small Council where its reported that Stannis has hired in a shadow-binder from Asshai. That Stannis would do such a thing is unlikely but there are essentially two alternatives, one being that Selyse invited her but the other and more likely is that Mel invited herself.

Why?

Because she was looking to dish Benero and the rest of the high priced help in the temple by being the one to identify Azor Ahai. Dragonstone we're told twice in about as many pages is a smoking island in the midst of the salt sea. Azor Ahai will be born again amidst smoke and salt when the red star bleeds. So easy-peasy and blindingly obvious that Stan is the Man.

Oh course GRRM might pull a flanker by revealing in the end that she was right all along and that Stannis really is Azor Ahai, but somehow I doubt it.

But Stannis is not born on Dragonstone? If "reborning" is what matters, it could have been anyone. I love the humor of Stannis and maybe some aspects of his character but even Edric Storm fits the bill if we go with the reasoning of Mel. Hell, I decide at the moment, Edric is maybe even a better candidate than Stannis. Team Mad Prendos may be just another Chekov's gun, who knows?

And how did Lightbringer appear? Was it any other sword before the burning of the Seven and started glowing afterwards? I do not remember Mel thinking about faking it in her chapter but maybe that just didn't come to her mind. For all we know she uses some non-magical tricks to make people believe in her

[Matthew.]

talking about Rhllor and prophesies and stuff, do we know / have any idea how Mel and Stannis first met (I mean, how/when did Mel decide Stannis was the "one"?) or how did Stannis end up with Lightbringer?

I think one reason she has deceived herself is because of the "stone dragon" business. She and the queen's men have both spoken about awakening dragons from stone, so I think she incorrectly concluded that Dragonstone and it's clutch of eggs were essential to the equation, when in reality the prophecy was pointing toward Dany and her fossilized eggs (IMHO).

It's also important to remember that Mel is not your standard red priest, since she's also a shadowbinder from Asshai, and I don't think it's a coincidence that a different shadowbinder, Quaithe, has attached herself to Dany. I suspect that Quaithe is succeeding where Melisandre has failed, and is also playing a more subtle game--always warning Dany against the people who are looking to take advantage of her, never asking for anything in return, never interpreting her visions like Mel does, and instead just parceling them out as is, which gives her an aura of great knowledge, when in reality most of what she says to Dany only has meaning in retrospect.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

too much of a coinkydink for me anyways to have Aemon tlak about a sphinx then have Sam run into someone they call the sphinx, who is living a riddle of a life

[markg171]

I did a bit on this in the Wildling thread it concerned the possible motive of the Woods witch in this.I agree with you in that she didn't see this possibly.I think there was some ploy to steer breeding in a certain direction.

It could be as Matthew said that we're just making an unnecessary confusion in our reading of this line, but it seems to me to be a deliberate choice of words that Barristan uses the word "told" instead of "prophesied". Barristan seems to have been there as he says that he witnessed Aerys and Rhaella wed, and no doubt Jaehaerys also spoke to him about it while he was his Kingsguard, but never does Barristan say that this was a prophecy as is commonly interpreted.

[wolfmaid7]

It could be as Matthew said that we're just making an unnecessary confusion in our reading of this line, but it seems to me to be a deliberate choice of words that Barristan uses the word "told" instead of "prophesied". Barristan seems to have been there as he says that he witnessed Aerys and Rhaella wed, and no doubt Jaehaerys also spoke to him about it while he was his Kingsguard, but never does Barristan say that this was a prophecy as is commonly interpreted.

Ah crap it was Selmy speaking i forgot,it honestly might be his emphasis on it being "told" .As a soldier i don't know if Selmy would even make the distinction with regards to something like this.

[Matthew.]

It could be as Matthew said that we're just making an unnecessary confusion in our reading of this line, but it seems to me to be a deliberate choice of words that Barristan uses the word "told" instead of "prophesied". Barristan seems to have been there as he says that he witnessed Aerys and Rhaella wed, and no doubt Jaehaerys also spoke to him about it while he was his Kingsguard, but never does Barristan say that this was a prophecy as is commonly interpreted.

Well, it's possible that such information could have been a specific manipulation--rather than Aerys II and Rhaella marrying and eventually having tPtwP come from their line, instead the first born son of their union eventually contributes to the near destruction of House Targaryen, which may have been the intended result.

Even so, I think GRRM's intent was to open up ambiguity over whether Dany, Aegon VI, Rhaego, or maybe Jon is tPtwP.

[Varamyra Stark]

Heresy 163 seems to have disappeared. I've even tried the link in Wolfmaid's Essential Heresy thread. Can anyone else see it?

[Blade of Sunlight]

Crackpot interpretation here, could it be that tPtwP being born from Jaehaerys' line, means that it would be "born" as a result of actions made by his line (eg. the lunacy of Aerys and the Rebelion)?

[The Young Black Dragon]

Heresy 163 seems to have disappeared. I've even tried the link in Wolfmaid's Essential Heresy thread. Can anyone else see it?

That's what I was wondering, I still had a few pages to catch up on.

[a bastard with a harp]

Heresy 163 seems to have disappeared. I've even tried the link in Wolfmaid's Essential Heresy thread. Can anyone else see it?

It's not working for me either.

On topic, maybe Sam somehow finds the original book (?) hat contains the prophecy at the Citadel and we can have a look at it as it is.

For me it became clear that Stannis isn't AA when Dany had the visions at The House of the Undying

A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand.

As it is one of the lies Dany has yet to "slay", it seems clear that Stannis is not AA.

[wolfmaid7]

ATTN: I think its a site issue,i fixed the link to H162 ,but H163 has gone missing completely.Hoping it will pop up again soon.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I can't find H163. Who was the OP?

[Blade of Sunlight]

I can't find H163. Who was the OP?

Black Crow