The Stark Sisters II - an anlyses of survival reflexes

[DireWolfSpirit]

Sweetsunray

From all this we can conclude that Arya is in every way very much in touch with her emotions, that she takes all the necessary initiative to not just survive but to get to safety. Syrio has been of great help in making her aware that sometimes flight is altogether safer and better than fighting, and she often uses his words as a reminder to choose which of the two is best in a given situation. Her sole maladaptive tactic is ruminating. I know that many regard her as being on a monstrous path. But the combination of staying in touch with her emotions, her physical activity and her initiative taking is exactly what prevents her from ever losing her identity. It also suggests that towards the future she will come out of it in a manner that actually little of her traumatic experiences still need to be processed.

It is an altogether different story for Sansa. While she seems so admirable in the way she copes with her ordeals, most of her tactics prevent her from actively escaping her captors and tormentors and are maladaptive when it comes to processing emotions. It's not because you avoid feeling emotions, that the emotions aren't there. And you can't process an emotion, without ever feeling it. So Sansa has a huge load of processing to do for the future. I know some think she might become a queen or leader who takes revenge and who can manipulates, but as the above analyses shows, Sansa has to learn to take initiative, something she is not inclined to do at all before all the horrors befall her. Worse, she has been deeply ingrained by Septa Mordan to do the opposite. But she's learning this, step by little step, by suggesting ideas to LF in the Eyrie. She has grown stronger, but she's a far cry from being anything close to a leader, after she manages to deal with the massive PTSD she'll have to work through if she manages to survive.

Fantastic observation.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I agree this is a great analysis but it seems to focus on Book 1. Any thoughts on whether the sisters' survival reflexes have evolved?

[sweetsunray]

I agree this is a great analysis but it seems to focus on Book 1. Any thoughts on whether the sisters' survival reflexes have evolved?

I will have to review the Arya chapters in Braavos again, as well as the Vale-Sansa chapters once more... but Arya's initiative taking on the spot is what often swayes the situations to her advantage. It are Arya's actions and initiatives for example that sway the encounter with Polliver, Tickler and squire to the Hound's and her advantage. Polliver and the Tickler were going to win on the Hound. He was drunk. She knocked out the squire first, and then gutted him, thereby eliminating a possible third assailant on the Hound, and then jumped the Tickler from behind. This was enough for Sandor to take out Polliver. This is an example of her fight response.

Although she's not aware of the Brave Company's deal with Roose, she herself takes initiative again in the cells during the Weasel soup scene. This earns her a better and protected position. The switch would have happened irregardless of Arya, but Roose had plenty of innocent Harrenhall servants killed for serving Tywin Lannister. Weasel soup spared her of any suspicion, and by extension Gendry and Hot Pie as well. She also knew it wouldn't last and took Rorge's threat very serious. She decided and rounded up Gendry and Hot Pie to make their escape, which she practically organized all by herself almost. She killed the guard and the three of them escaped. And until she fell asleep on her horse from pure exhaustion, she was the one who led the escape route on horseback.

Sure, they got caught again by the BWB, but they were the safest group to be captured by at the time, what with the Hunter and his dogs prowling for people to put in a cage (and she wore originally the flayer's sigil), the Brave Company and those hunting the Kingslayer. It wouldn't have been realistic to get to Riverrun without capture. And though her impulsive conflict avoidance (flight) from the scene when her mother's (freeing Jaime) and Ned's actions (Ashara Dayne and Edric Dayne being milkbrother to Jon) are discussed that gets her captured by the Hound, by that time 'in hindsight) she was safer with the Hound than what the BWB soon would become as well as Riverrun altogether after the RW. Nor would the Hound have ever noticed her, if she hadn't accused him of Mycah's murder.

Arya seems to be very lucky often (though also very unlucky), but quite a lot of that luck is forced into existence because of her own actions.

[sweetsunray]

I don't know that you can give a fair comparison between the two over the entire series; Arya and Sansa encounter distinctly different circumstances which they happen to be well-suited for. If their situations were reversed both girls would likely have died somewhere along the way.

I don't think either of them would have died. Arya would have forced her escape from KL some way or another, soon enough. She already knew secret passages and tunnels that would lead her out somehow. Apart from locking her up in a tower cell and never opening the door, they would not have been able to keep her as a hostage.

Meanwhile, let's say that Sansa managed to escape somehow (chances for that are close to non-existent, because she's not aware of the passages and tunnels) she would have had to do it as a girl and wouldn't be able to hide her highborn status. That would save her from being killed along KR, but taken straight to Tywin in HH, and she'd end up in KL again.

[Jinjoz]

I haven't even read through your analysis but I am excited and know it is going to be amazing

[Mladen]

I don't think either of them would have died. Arya would have forced her escape from KL some way or another, soon enough. She already knew secret passages and tunnels that would lead her out somehow. Apart from locking her up in a tower cell and never opening the door, they would not have been able to keep her as a hostage.

It is rather naive and basically a wishful thinking that Arya would be able to escape once capture. You actually forget that even the first time, she didn't escape on her own.

[Meemaw]

Im really glad you started this analysis and break down on the difference on the two sister. It took a reread to see the positive side on Sansa because of how she was written in GOT. I too cant wait for you to break down the other books.

[Meemaw]

It is rather naive and basically a wishful thinking that Arya would be able to escape once capture. You actually forget that even the first time, she didn't escape on her own.

I think Arya would have escaped from KL on her own. She has a way of getting other people to help her just for her not for being a title or reward. She makes friends easily. There is a whole network in the Riverlands set up to look for just her.

[Colonel Green]

I think Arya would have escaped from KL on her own. She has a way of getting other people to help her just for her not for being a title or reward. She makes friends easily. There is a whole network in the Riverlands set up to look for just her.

The narrative has Arya encountering different types of people. The court in King's Landing is full of Lannister men, nothing else, and you have Varys' omnipresent spies (who are, for instance, able to warn Tyrion when the Redwyne twins try to bribe their way out). Arya's not going to have any more success at convincing Lannister men to help her escape than her sister did; it's not a measure of personality, it's economic self-interest and fear.

[Meemaw]

Aryas whole story line is all about thinking outside of the box and escaping when her life is danger.

[Roose on the Loose]

I think of Sansa as a student of soft power. (And Littlefinger is an able teacher.) Living in a powerless situation forced her to find creative ways to push back. The one thing she does better than anyone is jerk people off. The game of thrones is basically a popularity contest, and people like Sansa.

[Mladen]

I think Arya would have escaped from KL on her own. She has a way of getting other people to help her just for her not for being a title or reward. She makes friends easily. There is a whole network in the Riverlands set up to look for just her.

Yeah, because that network is under Lady Stoneheart, not because of some huge love for Arya.

[sweetsunray]

It is rather naive and basically a wishful thinking that Arya would be able to escape once capture. You actually forget that even the first time, she didn't escape on her own.

I didn't forget she didn't escape on her own. She never escapes on her own, always with help. But she has a knack of using that help, of looking for it. She's very very resourceful in that way. Sansa gets help too, but again the tactic of getting that help is different. With Sansa help is offered to her while she's passive, and barely daring to ask for it. Arya usually gets help by being helpful. KL is not just full of Lannister lackeys, obviously, otherwise no one would have ever offered help to Sansa. We know mostly only the KL Lannister lackeys, because Sansa mostly socializes with people of her own class, which are people who need to kiss Lannister ass. Arya socializes with the maids, the cooks, .... the castle servants. And let's not forget she already knew a way down and out of KL when she overheard Varys and Illyrio talking.

You also forget that help alone was not enough for Arya to succeed in her escapes. Syrio was the necessary help to stall Meryn, but she also knew the routes well enough to get out via the stables. She then meets the stable boy who could have got her caught, but she sticks him with the pointy end. SHe combines help and resourcefulness and self reliance time and time again.

It's Joren who gets her out of KL and then later stalls Ser Amory's army enough for her and Gendry to get out via the tunnel. But it's also she who gets Hot Pie and Lommy and Weasel to escape as well AND she saves Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from the fire. While Lommy is the one they get caught by again, Hot Pie is instrumental in the making of the Weasel soup as well as keeping her well fed in Harrenhall. Jaqen is instrumental in giving her the coin to get out of Westeros altogether, and the murder of the two men that hurt her. Sure, the switch for Harrenhall from Ser Amory to Bolton would have happened, regardless of what Arya did or didn't do, but it helped in not getting her foot chopped off (or that of Gendry and Hot Pie), and the actual escape from Harrenhall is basically all on her own shoulders: she tells Gendry to make the swords, for him and Hot Pie to get the horses, she gets the map herself and she kills the guard. And they do it, sometimes reluctantly, but they do it nonetheless.

Which BTW is reflected in another big personality discrepancy between Sansa and Arya. Sansa is very much subservient. She's portrayed as the one closest to being a lady enough to become a queen. She looks the regal part, but she's very unsuccesful in ordering others around. Meanwhile Arya is supposedly the least ladylike, but she's very dominant, bossy and tells people what to do all the time without question. She's very regal actually in her attitude. It's one of her ways how she gets people to help her, also get into conflict regularly, and it's what the kindly man and the waif regard as her "Arya Stark from Winterfell". An allusion to her bosiness is put forward in a FFC, mirrorred in Willow, and something that Brienne observes, including how Willow manages to boss over Gendry - a boy-man stronger, bigger and older than her. Brienne wonders whether Willow could be Arya - right age, dark hair, and a bossy nature that would fit a highborn. Of course it's put in there to remind us of the Gendry-Arya interaction and imo romantic set up (he's alive, hanging around a mirror of Arya)... but it also puts the idea to the forefront how dominant Arya is.

[Marcel]

If you want to analyze the survival instincts of both sisters, maybe you should also consider the following - Arya begins the story as the most northern and Stark of the two sisters, much of her journey is to return to the north, to what she considers her home and her family, but her survival in all these moments depends on leaving behind her Stark identity. Sansa, on the other hand, starts her journey with little identification with Northern values or Stark heritage, being more easily lured by the southern illusions. But, increasingly, her survival will depend on embracing her roots in the north and her heritage as a Stark.

[sweetsunray]

If you want to analyze the survival instincts of both sisters, maybe you should also consider the following - Arya begins the story as the most northern and Stark of the two sisters, much of her journey is to return to the north, to what she considers her home and her family, but her survival in all these moments depends on leaving behind her Stark identity. Sansa, on the other hand, starts her journey with little identification with Northern values or Stark heritage, being more easily lured by the southern illusions. But, increasingly, her survival will depend on embracing her roots in the north and her heritage as a Stark.

I don't think I agree with this. Yes, Arya is the Northern she-wolf and identifies as a Stark, Sansa in a way looks down on it and wants courts etc. But it doesn't switch. Yes, Arya assumes many identities, but her spirit remains the same, AND she always internally remains Arya Stark of Winterfell. She's berated for it in the House of Black and White, and throws everything away, except for Needle because it holds everything that is both her she-wolf personality Arya, as well as Jon, her father, and Winterfell. Arya's identity (psychologically) does not truly alter at all. What she does learn is how to lie (she starts as someone who blurts out the truths all the time) and how to wear a mask (but it's Arya underneath). Sansa has North in her, she just hasn't ever much explored it, nor was encouraged to do so. She does increasingly starts to see the rot behind the veneer of the courts, but she too, must like Arya assume a different outward identity (Elayne). Plus this happens for all Starks, except Robb. But Bran and Rickon pretend to be dead and leave their home, with Rickon also having to pretend he's someone else. And Jon has never known his true genetical heritage even... well he knows half (Stark, but a Stark mother and not Ned for a father).

[Marcel]

I regret not having sufficient fluency in English to respond with the quality you deserve. But the whole question for me is: Sansa, at first, had an external value as a Stark, but in oneself she was not identified as such. Now, the external value of her identity as Stark disappeared, because she is seen by all as a bastard. Inside herself, however, she begins to strengthen her identification with House Stark and northern values. If we're talking about survival, I believe that Sansa's depends on how she will deal with this conflict - for example, if she kills or help Littlefinger kills Robert Arryn, which would be something unStark, I believe that her fate will be sealed by such act. In the case of Arya, she escapes from King's Landing because she isn't identified as a Stark and all the attitudes that endanger her are based on her acting on values ​​that she sees as fitting the values ​​of her family. Only when it comes to making decisions that are questionable in light of such values (the ones her father taught her) is that her survival prospects increases. To free Rorge, Biter and Jaqen, for example, was not an honorable act, because they were all dangerous criminals. Furthermore, the way she cheated Jaqen is not an example of honored conduct, it is more compatible with a Littlefinger act than a Eddard Stark act. Anyway, If she actually is incorporated into the Faceless Men, her survival will depend on leave behind her family memory and the values ​​that her father taught her.

[kayasnow]

I regret not having sufficient fluency in English to respond with the quality you deserve.

As a native English speaker and writer, I am awed by your eloquence. I can't write that well! Perfectly fluent! And a wonderful response.

I didn't quote the rest, but I like the parallel between the girls, both having to hide their external "Starkness" while strengthening their inner selves with all that their "Starkness" entails!

[Marcel]

As a native English speaker and writer, I am awed by your eloquence. I can't write that well! Perfectly fluent! And a wonderful response.

I didn't quote the rest, but I like the parallel between the girls, both having to hide their external "Starkness" while strengthening their inner selves with all that their "Starkness" entails!

Thank you for your kind words.

[Marcel]

Let's consider, for example, the moment when Ned Stark discovers that his daughter has a sword. The sword is a symbol of her identity as Stark and her autonomy. Ned does not convince his daughter to behave calling for an exchange of favors or giving an order that can not be disputed - he convinces her calling for the northern values, through the metaphor involving a pack of wolves. That would never work with Sansa and it wouldn't be necessary, mainly because Sansa would probably obey such order without questioning it. Arya may have a submissive behavior and still be moved by the northern values. Sansa can display a dominant behavior and yet be guided by the Southern values.

How many women are in Robb's army? Or in Tywin's army? How are they seen by their partners in each of these contexts? Compare, for example, Dacey Mormont in the royal guard of Robb with Brienne of Tarth in Renly's guard. Brienne was continually ridiculed. Women in the South can afford to be pampered dolls, because the challenges posed by the environment are less severe than in the north. No wonder that Catelyn associates the hardness in the expressions of her husband and his vassals with the rigor of the northern climate. Catelyn is there to show us the contrast between the North and the rest of the seven kingdoms. In the North, every women must have a certain independence, some agency, because they must learn to fend for themselves. In someway, the same happens in Dorne, though more for reasons related to the historical formation of that region, with the invasion of Nymeria, than because of a particularly harsh environment. Anyway, both Dorne and the North are seen as markedly different from the rest of the seven kingdoms. If you plan to analyze Arya and Sansa psychologically , you can not ignore how they were shaped by this conflict of values. Sansa adapts perfectly to the court because she did not have any personality, she's used to be conducted and to satisfy the will of her father, brothers, husband, her promised or any other dominant male figure next to her. And that's because it's what you expect from a Southern lady and that's what Septa Mordane taught her. Sansa's value rests on her Stark name. She grew up with the idea that a woman should always be conducted, never conduct. Arya has grown closer to his father's servants, the true people of the north, and she has been better able to absorb the Northern values. She did not suffer this great influence from Southern culture as Sansa. Arya's value rests on her Stark identity. I think that's something fundamental. The Stark House is not only a name and the motto that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is not associated with a Stark there in name only. I think you made a very interesting and correct analysis, but it is somewhat incomplete. Even when Sansa becomes the ruler of her own fate, the values ​​that will guide her actions will be essential to her survival. In the context of your analysis, I believe that, if Sansa starts to act in the dominant range of behaviors, she can continue to be defined by the heritage of Septa Mordane. Littlefinger is shaping Sansa with the southern values. The future of Sansa, therefore, rests between being a Olenna Redwyne or a Cercei Lannister. But she can still become a Lyanna Stark.

[Marcel]

Sorry, double post.