Whats this Jaime redemption arc I keep hearing about?

[BitsOfBrains]

Jaime saved Brienne from a bear. When he said "the things I do for love", it was with loathing- he loathed what he did to Bran even as he did it. So far this thread has omitted these relevant facts.

I need to reread that chapter because the way i remember it he left her behind then only went back to save her after some spirit/entity invaded his mind in a weirwood grove and urged him to go back.

Again like I said I haven't read the chapter in a while, but it wasn't his own conscience that drove him to do it but some exterior force exerting influence over him.

[BitsOfBrains]

Does that mean it's impressive or that she is too young to understand the concept of trial?

I am just saying you can't really attribute her killing to Stark culture or influence. Its not a behavior she picked up from her family, unlike Jaimes complete disregard for human life which is plainly a Lanister thing.

[Pashernate Reader]

Well, honestly I also don't see what the big deal is. He's still has A LOT to make up for pushing a kid out of window making him unable to walk for the rest of his life.

However, the redemption it's more like he's coming to realize his past mistakes. It's all in his chapters.

When people talk about the terrible things Jamie did, they always talk about Bran. At least Bran's alive. What about poor Jory? What. About. Poor. Jory???

[Alaynsa Starne]

I need to reread that chapter because the way i remember it he left her behind then only went back to save her after some spirit/entity invaded his mind in a weirwood grove and urged him to go back.

Again like I said I haven't read the chapter in a while, but it wasn't his own conscience that drove him to do it but some exterior force exerting influence over him.

Huh? He had a dream about her. That triggered his conscience. It wasn't an "exterior force". I would highly recommend that you reread his AFFC chapters as well. He's not perfect and he's definitely still capable of being a dick, but his internal thoughts show that he is truly ashamed of what he's become. I don't know that Jaime being a more "enlightened" individual means that he is redeemed or even capable of redemption as I think that's open to the interpretation and opinions of individual readers.

I am just saying you can't really attribute her killing to Stark culture or influence. Its not a behavior she picked up from her family, unlike Jaimes complete disregard for human life which is plainly a Lanister thing.

Since when does Jaime (or Lannisters as a collective) have a complete disregard for human life? Since when do Starks as a collective have a greater regard for life than Lannisters? Bran's first chapter opens to the execution of a mentally disturbed man who the reader knows faced an extremely traumatizing event due to the prologue.

When people talk about the terrible things Jamie did, they always talk about Bran. At least Bran's alive. What about poor Jory? What. About. Poor. Jory???

Jory didn't deserve that. He was so cool. Like a sidekick, but not annoying. Watching his death in the show was especially brutal. :crying:

[Ser Not Appearing]

I knew my Grandmother Agnew before she passed a handful of years ago, though some would say I never truly knew her. To me she is cookie jars, television, and over-cooked meat. To me she is laundromats, euchre, and a woman well-versed in the Heimlich maneuver that once saved my life as a child (I dont eat butterscotch candies anymore). To others she was a poor mother, irresponsible, selfish, weak willed, and needy. To others she was about as bad an alcoholic as the world has ever seen. To others her failings allowed a fractured family to further splinter. To me, she is a long-recovered alcoholic, a staple of AA meetings, and an inspiration of how far back up the ladder of self-respect one can climb.

Yes, perception is a strange, transient, inconstant thing. Are we best defined as a sum of our actions, an average, or a point in time? Often, I wonder if it is not the latter.

To me, Martha Agnew is best defined as a woman whose last living word was love. I hope to follow in that path.

http://alifelessdynamic.blogspot.com/2012/05/neenah-wi-and-perception.html

[ummester]

Jamie, like any other major character in ASoIaF, is complicated. None are altogether good and none are altogether bad and, as such, they all have everything and nothing to redeem simultaneously. It's just part of being human.

As Ser mentions above, perception counts for a lot. Everything depends on your POV.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

How can you miss his redemption arc?

In the past he prevented the execution of 500,000 dirty sinful criminals. As he's grown his character has improved immeasurably. Most recently he risked his own life to personally try to execute a vile magician that was spying on himself and his wonderful sister the queen during their meetings to plan out the betterment of the realm.

Don't blame him just because the blood mage survived.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

Im with you, bro.

Nothing Jaime could do will ever make up for his past actions.

He could save all of Westeros and I still wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.

[TerrorVoid]

I don't see Jaime redemption arc for a different reason. There was no change in charcter after chopping the hand. He was always gullible hero. But we only see it when we get his POV.

Because before that he was seen from the Stark's POV.

He might be little less harsh, but the reason for that is not character change, but physical (and still he gives some bitchslaps even without a hand).

And I don't understand, why he is blamed for attempt to kill Bran. I believe, even Cait understood that he was doing right thing.

[Sullen]

At least Theon has done a couple things to the good. I subscribe to the "Theon Durden" theory so I think he shanked some guys inside Winterfell and he also rescued (f)Arya. Don't get me wrong I hate Theon, but at least I can acknowledge and trace his redemption arc.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but how can you hate Theon?!

He's by far the most "human" character. His strengths, his flaws, his insecurities, are all extremely relatable, not to mention the quality of the writing in his chapters, who easily surpass any other character's chapter...

This is honestly baffling to me.

[Knight Of Winter]

OP, if you can't see the difference in actions, words and thought process between AGOT Jaime, ASOS Jaime and AFFC Jaime (which is a prerequisite for any type of discussion about redemption arc), then there's really little to discuss about.

He's by far the most "human" character. His strengths, his flaws, his insecurities, are all extremely relatable, not to mention the quality of the writing in his chapters, who easily surpass any other character's chapter...

This is honestly baffling to me.

You just listed the reasons why Theon is awesomely written character. That doesn't mean he is necessarily likeable, though.

[JonSnowGOAT]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but how can you hate Theon?!

He's by far the most "human" character. His strengths, his flaws, his insecurities, are all extremely relatable, not to mention the quality of the writing in his chapters, who easily surpass any other character's chapter...

This is honestly baffling to me.

How is that baffling? I like Theon as a character, not as a person.

[Alternis Dim]

Jaimes "character arc" seems to be more about APPEARING to be/convincing others that he is a good guy.

Completely agree with this. For me, the necessary thing for a redemption arc is understanding that what you did was wrong and trying to correct your mistakes. Jaime never did any of this. He complains that people call him "Kingslayer", but doesn't reveal why he killed Aerys; he thnks about what he did to Bran only once, and never feels really sorry about it; he killed Ned's men, and never faces any consequence. All of this does not magically go away just because he saved Brienne from a bear.

And I don't understand, why he is blamed for attempt to kill Bran. I believe, even Cait understood that he was doing right thing.

Because it was his and Cersei's fault that they and their kids were in danger. Also, were in the book does it say that Cat believes Jaime was doing the right thing?

[LordStoneheart]

And I don't understand, why he is blamed for attempt to kill Bran.

Because good people don't try to murder children. In most societies, murder is frowned upon. As is incest. Jaime committed a crime to cover up his already on-going crimes.

I believe, even Cait understood that he was doing right thing.

I don't see how Cat could have understood that since it was not the right thing. What Cat "understood" was the need to protect one's children. But what she doesn't realize is that Jaime was not doing this to protect his children. He even admits he does not care for them. He did it to protect Cersei and himself. From a crime they were willingly committing. Then later he mentions how willing he was to kill Arya because Cersei said so.

Because it was his and Cersei's fault that they and their kids were in danger. Also, were in the book does it say that Cat believes Jaime was doing the right thing?

It doesn't. I think he's referring to a passage where she thinks that Ned & Jon Arryn's deaths must have been because they learned the truth. She questions "would I do any less for my own?" Something that she does not answer, btw, nor does Ned when Cersei asks him the same. They both know that they would go to great lengths to protect their children, but their thoughts during these instances can't really reflect a willingness to kill like Jaime and Cersei because they haven't been in that situation to put it to the test. But that still does not make what Jaime did to Bran "the right thing." It makes it a almost but not quite understandable atrocity.

[Gertrude]

I think it's possible to aknowledge that Jaime's arc is one of redemption and still believe that he is beyond redemption. The important thing is not whether he succeeds or not, but the process of self-examination and the journey. Jaime did some awful things that should not be forgiven, and I don't blame readers who hold this opinion. However, the redemption arc of Jaime is a separate thing that doesn't depend on how someone personally feels about him. It's a journey Jaime is taking and it's happening. That's pretty objective. How you feel about it is subjective.

[Dofs]

Where do we see the Starks applauding themselves for hanging a bunch of people without mention of trial for being outlaws? Even the BWB under LS performs something more responsibly a trial for their Frey and Lannister captives.

Jaime recalls his hangings, we don't actually see it , so we don't know any details of what had happened. But he specifically tells that those men were not part of the smallfolk, meaning that he did somehow find out that they were outlaws. Saying that he just saw those three men, pointed at them and ordered them to be hanged without any reason is ridiculous. Jaime beheaded his own soldier for raping a peasant. He forbade to take any food or anything from the villagers in Pennytree. And he did not deem those villagers hiding in the holdfast as outlaws. Jaime would not have hanged innocent men for no reason, thus those he hanged were indeed outlaws, and Jaime found that out before hanging them.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

Jory didn't deserve that. He was so cool. Like a sidekick, but not annoying. Watching his death in the show was especially brutal. :crying:

I actually laugh at him getting stabbed in his good eye on rewatches.

[Lion of the West]

I knew my Grandmother Agnew before she passed a handful of years ago, though some would say I never truly knew her. To me she is cookie jars, television, and over-cooked meat. To me she is laundromats, euchre, and a woman well-versed in the Heimlich maneuver that once saved my life as a child (I dont eat butterscotch candies anymore). To others she was a poor mother, irresponsible, selfish, weak willed, and needy. To others she was about as bad an alcoholic as the world has ever seen. To others her failings allowed a fractured family to further splinter. To me, she is a long-recovered alcoholic, a staple of AA meetings, and an inspiration of how far back up the ladder of self-respect one can climb.

Yes, perception is a strange, transient, inconstant thing. Are we best defined as a sum of our actions, an average, or a point in time? Often, I wonder if it is not the latter.

To me, Martha Agnew is best defined as a woman whose last living word was love. I hope to follow in that path.

http://alifelessdynamic.blogspot.com/2012/05/neenah-wi-and-perception.html

Excellent post!

Its a very interesting subjects of how we see people and remember them and Jaime is a prime example of this.

[BitsOfBrains]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but how can you hate Theon?!

He's by far the most "human" character. His strengths, his flaws, his insecurities, are all extremely relatable, not to mention the quality of the writing in his chapters, who easily surpass any other character's chapter...

This is honestly baffling to me.

I agree that Theon chapters are well written but I kind of disagree that he is the most human characters. I never knew too many humans who were willing to attack their foster families. Maybe he represents the smallness of humanity, but not humanity at large.

But like I said I am willing to realize he is in a redemption arc because A. he has suffered enough for his crimes (Ramsays "good" deed) and B. He is actively trying to do some genuinely good deeds at his own peril.

I still hate the guy as a person. He was trusted as a brother and completely F'ed up Robbs war. In the show its even worse because he kneels and swears to always be a brother to Robb before completely sneak F'ing him.

[Pashernate Reader]

To be fair to the turncloak, the Starks were his captors, not his foster family, no matter how well they treated him.