Can "punching down" humor ever work?

[Athias]

Can "punching down" humor ever work?

I think trying to set a standard for what constitutes "acceptable humor" never works.

[butterbumps!]

Yes, exactly. From your previous post I thought you were asking if mean-spiritedness was a cause.

oh yea sorry-- I was really vague in that post I realize. I was curious if the mean-spirited root of this (or potentially any) humor is really what most people find unfunny-- if due to our tendency toward empathy or something that these sorts of "jokes" don't seem funny to most people.

The "downpunching" specifically is like a perfect storm of harmful meanspiritedness. It's usually delivered from a position of privilege such that the "punchline" is about an "other" with less privilege, has an intentionally malicious delivery, and I think most problematically, reinforces and perpetuates the power/status/ privilege divisions without any sort of critique. That's what I found really unfunny about the DJ in the OP-- that not only was he incredibly rude (intentionally insulting delivery without provocation), but the whole point of the joke was about reinforcing the troubling stereotype that women are worthless after a certain age because their looks fade and women's looks are everything (which is problematic for sexist reasons of course, but also a really cliched canard devoid of even shock entertainment value due to its constant repetition anyway).

[Inigima]

Can "punching down" humor ever work?

I think trying to set a standard for what constitutes "acceptable humor" never works.

We've been over this, but it's not about what's "acceptable." No one is attempting to curtail your freedom to say stupid things. It's that they will not be funny. Like, people will not laugh them.

[MercenaryChef]

We've been over this, but it's not about what's "acceptable." No one is attempting to curtail your freedom to say stupid things. It's that they will not be funny. Like, people will not laugh them.

while i agree with you on this completely, sadly there are entirley too many people making money who are considered funny for saying stupid shit.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm really curious what type of response this DJ received. Surely it couldn't have been a good one. Was he required to apologize?

[Athias]

We've been over this, but it's not about what's "acceptable." No one is attempting to curtail your freedom to say stupid things. It's that they will not be funny. Like, people will not laugh them.

The mere positing of the question itself seeks a standard, does it not? What "works" or "doesn't work"? This standard may be based on another: social tolerance, power disparities, and what not--which seems to be the prevailing line of thought as far as this thread is concerned.

I didn't suggest that anyone was trying to "curtail" one's freedom to say "stupid" things, only that the attempt to set a standard on what constitutes "funny" or "not stupid" is futile.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Considering how individualized one's aesthetic judgments about humor are, whether a joke or type of humor "works" is more a matter of personal preference than anything. I happen to think that Daniel Tosh is pretty funny and Tosh.O is sometimes hilarious, and that's "punching down" just about as far as you can go. Of course, I recognize how mean spirited some of his humor can be, and feel bad about laughing, but the fact that I'm still laughing anyway despite it says something (what it says exactly, I'll leave someone else to figure out).

[butterbumps!]

while i agree with you on this completely, sadly there are entirley too many people making money who are considered funny for saying stupid shit.

what's the anatomy of that, though? I guess, I realize that catharsis is major part of a lot of humor, but how much of those finding these things "funny" are really just consuming the product to feel better about their own insecurities (albeit, by putting someone else down)? As in, do the people who'd laughed at the DJ's aging women jokes genuinely find other's misfortune hilarious, or is the laughter there closer to why kids laugh with the bully who's tormenting someone-- as in something closer to relief-- "he's not picking on me, I'm safe, and this means I'm more socially acceptable than this other kid!" Which is, I think, something most of us grow out of? I guess, I might be asking if it's perhaps not that people find it "funny," but consume the product as an expression of social dominance?

[eyenon15]

Sometimes when someone falls down its unstoppably hilarious.

So yeh, any type of humor will work somewhere.

geography and mood of the listener are some things that are also factors.

If you are making fun of right wing ultra conservative religious people, the audience is going to matter on whether these jokes are deemed funny or not.

One group of listeners might think it's hilarious to make fun of aging women that gain weight, the same group of listeners might not think it's funny at all to make fun of small penises,beer bellies, and receding hairlines.

I don't think anyone is funny enough that every funny thing they ever attempt to say or think comes out both hilarious and victimless.

There is no formula for making something be funny, comedians would be trained at Universities if there was.

I think for the most part, comedians should be left alone to try to be funny.

[Tears of Lys]

Whether it works or not is not debatable. The fact that there's so much of it on the airwaves proves it works.

Whether I personally find it funny in principle, not really. But I'm sure I've been caught chuckling at something that I shouldn't have and felt ashamed of myself for doing it.

Maybe when we become more highly evolved as a species, we won't laugh at others' expense.

[Inigima]

The mere positing of the question itself seeks a standard, does it not? What "works" or "doesn't work"? This standard may be based on another: social tolerance, power disparities, and what not--which seems to be the prevailing line of thought as far as this thread is concerned.

I didn't suggest that anyone was trying to "curtail" one's freedom to say "stupid" things, only that the attempt to set a standard on what constitutes "funny" or "not stupid" is futile.

You're right, comedians shouldn't talk about their craft or try to improve.

[The Iceman of the North]

I have no problem laughing at others' expenses, sometimes that's all you're left with. Thus I have no problem with "punching up" or "self deprecating" jokes.

"Punching down" jokes is a different kettle, and I don't appreciate them if I realize that's what's going on.

Defining what's really punching down is debatable though. Making fun of Swedes is always OK. It doesn't matter if their status are above you, or, as it has been for the past couple of decades, so far below you that you'd hardly notice them down there.

[Athias]

You're right, comedians shouldn't talk about their craft or try to improve.

Is that what I said, now?

Anyway, I think this video is interesting: Jim Norton and Lindy West debate the use of rape jokes in comedy.

[Lily Valley]

If I understand what sort of humour we are talking about correctly, I think its not so bad in stand-up comedian shows where you get "hecklers". They are, essentially, trying to bait the comedian, so in those situations I see it as fair game. But, I'm not sure if I've misunderstood what kind of humour we are talking about

Hecklers. Yes. I really enjoy both the hecklers and the the zeal with which some comedians deal with them.

[Elder Sister]

Is that what I said, now?

Anyway, I think this video is interesting: Jim Norton and Lindy West debate the use of rape jokes in comedy.

Interesting that Jim Norton is basically celebrating tragedy and misfortune for others. And he says that in your video. It's at 4:01.

[Inigima]

Is that what I said, now?

Anyway, I think this video is interesting: Jim Norton and Lindy West debate the use of rape jokes in comedy.

It's the logical conclusion of the idea that what "works" shouldn't be discussed, yes. You really are the worst.

[eyenon15]

Interesting that Jim Norton is basically celebrating tragedy and misfortune for others. And he says that in your video. It's at 4:01.

He said it in a funny way but it's a valid point, tragedy makes careers.

It goes the same way with many professions if they are being honest.

doctors won't have a job if no one gets sick

police won't have a job if no one commits crime

funeral homes won't be in business if no one dies.

[Elder Sister]

He said it in a funny way but it's a valid point, tragedy makes careers.

It goes the same way with many professions if they are being honest.

doctors won't have a job if no one gets sick

police won't have a job if no one commits crime

funeral homes won't be in business if no one dies.

Here's the difference that I see: All of the above items you list are things that are inevitable to an extent. In the video, he is basically justifying rape jokes. Lindy West is making the point that by joking about it, it becomes more accepted. Is anyone making jokes about killing children, or old people, or killing animals? Maybe they are, but these things are not accepted by our society. It's only been in the last 2 years that people have really pushed back about rape jokes. And her comparison of the Holocaust is right on. NO one jokes about that. It's not funny.

I think the above is a big reason why I don't enjoy or appreciate 'punching down' humor. It just encourages bad behavior to me. And I may laugh, but it's not a pleasant experience. I mentioned Sam Kinison in an earlier post. I had forgotten some of the truly vile things he had said; he's been dead a long time. Those things made me squirm; I didn't enjoy them. I did really enjoy his Tonight Show appearances when he had to at least attempt to keep it fairly appropriate. Does that make me a wet blanket? I dunno. But it's why I don't think this kind of humor is particularly inventive or funny.

[eyenon15]

Here's the difference that I see: All of the above items you list are things that are inevitable to an extent. In the video, he is basically justifying rape jokes. Lindy West is making the point that by joking about it, it becomes more excepted. Is anyone making jokes about killing children, or old people, or killing animals? Maybe they are, but these things are not accepted by our society. It's only been in the last 2 years that people have really pushed back about rape jokes. And her comparison of the Holocaust is right on. NO one jokes about that. It's not funny.

I think the above is a big reason why I don't enjoy or appreciate 'punching down' humor. It just encourages bad behavior to me. And I may laugh, but it's not a pleasant experience. I mentioned Sam Kinison in an earlier post. I had forgotten some of the truly vile things he had said; he's been dead a long time. Those things made me squirm; I didn't enjoy them. I did really enjoy his Tonight Show appearances when he had to at least attempt to keep it fairly appropriate. Does that make me a wet blanket? I dunno. But it's why I don't think this kind of humor is particularly inventive or funny.

I've heard jokes about all those things you say no one jokes about.

Louis CK had a bit about killing his daughter. I don't think people saw that and thought "I've always wanted to kill a child, now that this guy is joking about it it's more acceptable so I can do probably do it"

[straits]

It's the logical conclusion of the idea that what "works" shouldn't be discussed, yes. You really are the worst.

You really should limit the use of superlative forms. They lose the oomph after a while.