What's up with House Blackwood?

[Chilli]

The Blackwoods are descended of the First Men.

Bloodraven's mother is a Blackwood. I guess that's where his skinchanging and greenseeing abilities come from?

Aegon V married a Blackwood. And the Starks also have Blackwood ancestors. So if R+L=J, Jon has Blackwood ancestors on both sides.

I would have expected Jon to be more like Bloodraven because he also has First Men + Targaryen blood, but until now he only has the skinchanging trait in common.

Bran is a skinchanger and a greenseeer like Bloodraven. Is that a Stark trait or a Blackwood trait?

Does his mother Catelyn Tully have Blackwood ancestors? Her mother was a Whent (related to Kingsguard Oswell Whent?). House Tully, House Whent and House Blackwood are all from the Riverlands.

In the story there are a lot of important Blackwood descendants with magical abilities, but I don't see many important Blackwoods.

So what's up with House Blackwood?

[Lion of the West]

The Blackwoods are descended of the First Men.

Bloodraven's mother is a Blackwood. I guess that's where his skinchanging and greenseeing abilities come from?

Aegon V married a Blackwood. And the Starks also have Blackwood ancestors. So if R+L=J, Jon has Blackwood ancestors on both sides.

I would have expected Jon to be more like Bloodraven because he also has First Men + Targaryen blood, but until now he only has the skinchanging trait in common.

Bran is a skinchanger and a greenseeer like Bloodraven. Is that a Stark trait or a Blackwood trait?

Does his mother Catelyn Tully have Blackwood ancestors? Her mother was a Whent (related to Kingsguard Oswell Whent?). House Tully, House Whent and House Blackwood are all from the Riverlands.

In the story there are a lot of important Blackwood descendants with magical abilities, but I don't see many important Blackwoods.

So what's up with House Blackwood?

I'd say they are a favorite of the author and hence they get special positive treatment and the Brackens get special negative treatment.

[The Dragon has three heads]

A lot I reckon, why waste a cool sigil on an unimportant house?

[Legion13]

Greensight and skinchanging are thought to be First Men traits, not just Blackwood traits. The Blackwood's are a First Men house, one of very few south of the neck.

[Bironic]

Greensight and skinchanging are thought to be First Men traits, not just Blackwood traits. The Blackwood's are a First Men house, one of very few south of the neck.

Not true, since TWOIAF we know that almost all houses in the south are First Men. What sets the Blackwoods apart from them, is that they follow the Old Gods instead of the Seven.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

House blackwood seem to have strong Greenseer abilities, and are one of the few southern houses still loyal to the Old Gods.

Obviously we know Bloodraven has these abilities, But I think we have seen another Blackwood bastard who displays seer type qualities. Alys Rivers who we meet in The Princess & The Queen, she is described as having long black hair which seems to be the defining feature of Blackwood women. With so many of them having the monika of Black in their names.

This is a quote from Aemond Targaryen about Alys's abilities.

"She saw you in a storm cloud, in a mountain pool at dusk, in the fire we lit to cook our suppers. She sees much and more, my Alys."

So if she is a Blackwood bastard then that seems to link the idea that they have strong seer genes. Another interesting thing is the woman in Brans vision at the end of ADWD, she is heavy with child (As was Alys, which is another reason I think they are both Blackwoods I think GRRM is linking the two women in our minds by giving them very similar appearances.) and rises out of the pool at Winterfell praying for a son to avenge her. I think she is Mellantha Blackwood, wife of Willam Stark, mother to Jocelyn & Edwyle. I think she is praying for a son because after Willams death his brother Artos is trying to usurp her childrens inheritance of Winterfell. This works if Jocelyn is the older and the baby in her belly is Edwyle.

If I'm right about this, and we will find out once She Wolves is published. Then we have another Blackwood woman using mysterious magical perhaps but definitely old Gods connected stuff.

As we know looking at the Stark family tree All the current Stark line are her direct descendants because Edwyle is their great grandaddy making her their great great grandma.

And Jon of course has another great great grandma Blackwood Black Betha Aegon V's Queen consort. Which brings me to my ponderings on The Ghost of High heart. Do we think Aegon having a Blackwood wife may have influenced how mush she (TGoHH) was listened too at his court? Certainly the Ghost is the embodiment of Old Gods she has white hair, pale skin & red eyes, her hair is very long and flowing, just like Alys Rivers is described. And the only other Red eyed person we have met is Bloodraven, could The Ghost even possibly be a Blackwood descendant herself? Is the Albino gene in their bloodline we know that some greenseers have red eyes from Leaf and others moss green, (Jojens eyes turn moss green after his fever.) The Ghost is undoubtedly a greendreamer. is she part Child of the forest? Jenny of Oldstones claimed she was a child, but she doesn't look like Leaf does, and the main evidence for her being one is her diminutive stature. Might she just be part child? Or maybe the Blackwoods have Child of the Forest blood and this is where there seer/skinchanging gene comes from? in which case maybe she just got a bit of recessive short arse gene too?

Black Aly Blackwood wed Cregan stark, but the Stark Lordship was passed down via his son with Lynarra Stark (a cousin no doubt) But he had 4 daughters with Black Allysanne Blackwood one of whom was named Alys (another hint Alys Rivers is a Blackwood) But might this match also hint that Starks wed blackwoods and Blackwoods wed starks? We know the Blackwoods used to rule half the wolfswood but the Starks beat them back, was that peace sealed with a marriage/marriages could the Skinchanging gene be from Bloodravens potential Stark blood? (I'm just speculating here) and his greenseer gene be from his Blackwood blood?

With Bran getting his greenseer gene from Mellantha Blackwoods side of his heritage? And his Warging/Skinchanging gene from the Stark side.

Anyway I don't think I've revealed anything which is solid or makes sense. hahaha. But these are basically the sum total of my musings upon the House and I think we will indeed see more of them going forward in the story. They seem very interesting and to offer a lot more to the story than one thinks at first glance.

A final point of note Blackwood is one of the houses tywin thinks cat will marry sansa to if she is returned to her mother. in fact it is the first house he thinks she would choose on his list. Hmm. interesting they don't seem a hugely powerful riverlands house at the moment but the historical connections between the two are very interesting.

Oh one last thought (really this time) Walder Frey has 5 children by his 4th wife Alyssa Blackwood. I'd watch those Blackwood blooded Frey's for signs of any abillity I think.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Alyssa's children are

Lame Lothar Frey one of the orchestrators of the Red Wedding and is was him who suggested The Rains of Castamere be played. he is one of the most Dangerous Freys apparently.

Jamos frey the father of Big Walder frey who murdered his cousin at Winterfell.

Whalen Frey, who passes out drunk at the Red Wedding trying to outdrink The Greatjohn.

Morya Frey-Brax, Nothing of note

Tyta Frey Still a maid (supposedly) and one of the options presented to Robb.

Nothing of note in regards to potential seer abilities in any of them or their kids.

But never mind hey!

Lothar is described as black haired though so I think we can assume the Black hair is 100% a Blackwood thing, so another point to favour the idea Alys Rivers is one.

[Pod The Rod]

Whalen Frey, who passes out drunk at the Red Wedding trying to outdrink The Greatjohn.

Wasn't that Merrett, not Whalen?

[Pod The Rod]

Not true, since TWOIAF we know that almost all houses in the south are First Men. What sets the Blackwoods apart from them, is that they follow the Old Gods instead of the Seven.

Wrong. About half of the houses south of the Neck STARTED as First Men. But they have since through intermarriage become almost entirely Andal. The Blackwoods, Royces, and Redforts are about the only ones I can think of offhand that are still ethnically First Men.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Wrong. About half of the houses south of the Neck STARTED as First Men. But they have since through intermarriage become almost entirely Andal. The Blackwoods, Royces, and Redforts are about the only ones I can think of offhand that are still ethnically First Men.

No, it's pretty much that through intermarriage every House is pretty much both Andal and First Man. The only difference between the two these days lies with what they identify as.

[Barty]

Definitely just a first men trait. Perhaps the Blackwoods have a purer first men bloodline than others. The wildlings have quite a few wargs/skinchangers and they almost definitely have no Blackwood blood. The only thing in common is the first men lineage

[The Wondering Wolf]

This works if Jocelyn is the older and the baby in her belly is Edwyle.

According to the Stark family tree in TWOIAF, Edwyle was older than Jocelyn. ;)

[LmL]

Not true, since TWOIAF we know that almost all houses in the south are First Men. What sets the Blackwoods apart from them, is that they follow the Old Gods instead of the Seven.

most First Men families in the south were wiped out or assimilated. Only very few retain high concentrations of First Men blood - Blackwoods, House Royce, a couple in the reach (House Crane and other houses founded by Garth), and a couple in Dorne.

Not all FM have skinchanging ability - it seems that this comes from interbreeding with cotf. The Starks defeated the Warg King, but took his daughters as "prizes," and we know what that means. The Starks also married into the family of the Marsh King, and if anyone has cotf blood it's the Crannogmen. The Blackwoods used to live in the Wolfswood, so it's likely they've got a history very similar to the Starks - they used to be neighbors.

So, not all FM families have skinchanger blood, but it seems cotf intermarriage was happening in some places before the Andals came, and so any FM house could conceivably have this ability. George has gone out of his way to suggest several other FM families than may have the gift - Starks and Blackwoods of course, House Crane, House Blackmont (vulture), House Mormont (bears), House Farwynd (Iron Isles, walruses / seals).

[LmL]

Weirwoods Eyes, enjoyed your comments. One thing regarding Alys Rivers: sounds like she is seeing visions in the night fires! She saw Daemon in her cook fire, and then we get the "she sees much and more" line which smacks of Melissandre. I for one am sold on Radio Westeros' theory that Mel is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shierra Seastar (check their website to read that), so we may have a clue here that seeing things in night fires isn't exclusive to R'hllorists? Perhaps this is a Blackwood / FM ability? Seems off, but then, is Alys Rivers a R'hllorist? It has to be one or the other.

This brings up an interesting idea I've mused on a bit, regarding mixed magical heritages. When Bloodracen uses magic, is it greenseeing or Targaryen fire magic? They have prophetic dreams and some supernatural abilities (some have resistance to fire and disease). And speaking of Blackwoods, because Egg married a Blckwood and the two generations after we'd brother to sister, Daenerys is half Blackwood also, as is Rhaegar. So what magical lineages are Dany, Jon, etc really drawing from? They have both available, potentially. Does Dany's Blackwood genetics give her an easier ability to bond with her dragons? Wild speculation, but there you go.

Also, Egg's mother was a Dayne. That's important too, I think.

[LmL]

double post. but I thought of somethig else! When Jaime takes Tytos Blackwood's son as hostage, dude is seven feet tall. Bookish, and not a warrior, but still. I think the Blackwoods have some unusual height in their family. Not sure what to make of that.

[Dofs]

Wrong. About half of the houses south of the Neck STARTED as First Men. But they have since through intermarriage become almost entirely Andal. The Blackwoods, Royces, and Redforts are about the only ones I can think of offhand that are still ethnically First Men.

What are you saying is impossible unless Blackwoods, Royces and Redforts were only marrying each other and Northern families which we know for certain is not true. Thus, ethnically, Blackwoods are no more First Men then the majority of other Southern Houses.

[Alester Florent]

It may have as much if not more to do with religion as bloodline. Realistically most people in Westeros will have a significant proportion of FM blood even if they are culturally Andal: native populations tend to get converted more than destroyed or bred out.

What the Blackwoods have in common with the Starks and (some of the) wildlings, which other southern houses don't, is that they follow the Old Gods. That's why the northerners and Blackwoods identify with their First Men heritage so strongly, and it would explain why they're susceptible to becoming wargs.

[Red Rahloo Connington]

Aren't the Daynes counted amongst the first men families in Dorne?

[BitsOfBrains]

The magical stuff might actually have something to do with the actual old gods and not all about genetics.

Like maybe if an Andal kid started giving blood sacrifice to heart trees maybe he would start seeing things?

Maybe not.

[BitsOfBrains]

Aren't the Daynes counted amongst the first men families in Dorne?

Yes which is weird considering they have purple eyes.