Who knows about Jon's heritage?

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

Something that I always ask myself when rading R+L=J: how many people can actually know that Jon is a Targaryen? Many readers seem totally convinced that Jon is a Targ, marry Sansa (for example) and will rise to be king or at least Lord of Winterfell and base this on the assumption that he is Targ and will be proclaimed who-knows-what when the world finds out. I don't find that convincing. He needs to be proclaimed a Targ, but how is that supposed to happen?

The only people that we met so far that have some possibility of knowing are Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister, as they both were Kingsguards at the time and could have heard it from their colleagues who are now dead. Maybe Howland Reed, as he was with Ned during the war and maybe back then. The only other persons that could know are Varys and Illyrio, because they were already plotting back then and have intriguing inside knowledge about everything concerning the royal family. Strangely, they never showed any apparent interest in Jon. All other persons that could potentially know because they were in a position that enabled them to at the time are dead now (let's not take servants and the like into the equasion).

So, in conclusion, no one seems to know or care about Jon's heritage. If nobody tells him, how is he supposed to rise up as a Targ? In my opinion, his heritage will not play a big part in Westeros, nobody knows and nobody will know. Maybe he will become Lord of Winterfell, but only as a legitimized bastard of Ned.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Well, GRRM seems to treat is as a big deal, so he will find a way to make it a big deal.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

Yeah, I guess he will find some friggin way. My best guess is that Barristan will tell Dany.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Yeah, I guess he will find some friggin way. My best guess is that Barristan will tell Dany.

I'm sure Barristan doesn't know.

If it's through a named character who was a witness (as opposed to an unmentioned midwife, for example), it has to be through Howland Reed.

[The Lady Lannister]

Bloodraven probably knows via the weirwood net.

[LordImp]

Howland Reed

Bloodraven

Maybe Benjen

Maybe Edric Dayne

Maybe Jojen Reed

[Unbent_Unbroken]

Howland Reed and Bloodraven for sure know. Benjen probably knew too, or at the least suspected.

[Knight Of Winter]

Howland Reed - for sure

Wylla - for sure

Bloodraven - likely

some Daynes - possibly. I'd wager it's likely that they conspired together with Wylla and Ned to hide Jon's parentage.

Benjen - maybe he suspected

Meera and Jojen - in case Howland told them. Don't think it's likely, though.

Vaeys and Illyrio - no way they know, IMO. If Varys knew about another secret Targ, he would have somehow included him in his plans by now.

[Marcel]

I believe that Doran knows too, and that is possible the route the show will take.

[SerBert]

Am I the only person who doesn't think that R+L=J is a dead cert? I mean, every Targaryan bastard or mixed blood Targaryan seems to have the standard Targaryan features (Eyes and hair. This seems to imply a certain amount of dominance in the Targaryan genes and Jon Snow has no Targaryan features. The argumant that Stark genes are more dominant seem a bit off as most of Cat/Neds kids have Tully appearances. This just seems like too much of a difference when you consider how GRRM has used the Baratheon gene in the past to hint at parentage.

[James Arryn]

Ethan Glover Lives!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Am I the only person who doesn't think that R+L=J is a dead cert? I mean, every Targaryan bastard or mixed blood Targaryan seems to have the standard Targaryan features (Eyes and hair.

False. Rhaegar's daughter looked Dornish. So did Baelor Breakspear. Ormund Baratheon and Rhaelle Targaryen's descendants have the trademarked Baratheon look. Bittersteel had black hair.

[James Arryn]

False. Rhaegar's daughter looked Dornish. So did Baelor Breakspear. Ormund Baratheon and Rhaelle Targaryen's descendants have the trademarked Baratheon look. Bittersteel had black hair.

Also supposedly the Strongs, or Valeryons.

[The Wolves]

Am I the only person who doesn't think that R+L=J is a dead cert? I mean, every Targaryan bastard or mixed blood Targaryan seems to have the standard Targaryan features (Eyes and hair.This seems to imply a certain amount of dominance in the Targaryan genes and Jon Snow has no Targaryan features. The argumant that Stark genes are more dominant seem a bit off as most of Cat/Neds kids have Tully appearances. This just seems like too much of a difference when you consider how GRRM has used the Baratheon gene in the past to hint at parentage.

To the bolded is simply not true, not every Targaryen has the trade mark look of silver/gold hair with purple eyes. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look black hair and dark eyes probably skin tone too. There are other Targs who don't have the typical Targaryen features so no Jon doesn't have to look like a Targaryen to be one.

[Avlonnic]

Barristan stated that he was not a part of Rhaegar's trusted inner circle. I do not believe he has an inkling. IF it is revealed that R+L=J, then some who might know (or guess) would include:

-Howland Reed

-Jojen and Meera

-Benjen

-Maester Walys, should he still live (he died or disappeared from Winterfell around the time of Jon's birth)

-Jon's milk mother, wherever she might be

-Anyone who survived after the TOJ, the trip to Starfell (Darkstar? Daynes?), or the journey from Starfell to Winterfell with the baby

-Old Nan She came to Winterfell long before Ned was born so she lived through Lyanna's disappearance,the war, Ned's return to Winterfell, and Benjen's leaving for the Wall. She knows a lot and she knew Eddard. Even the look on his face when Robb was born might have tipped her so I think it is possible.

Other possibilities to consider:

-Bloodraven

-Bran (if not now, then soon)

-Aemon and/or Jeor Mormont (both deceased)

Finally, VARYS. It is conceivable, though unlikely, that Varys suspected Jon's parentage soon after the TOJ; however, no action was needed because as far as anyone knew (or could prove), Jon Snow was 'the natural son of Eddard Stark.' Even Jon himself believed this. He lived far away in the remote North and, when he joined the Night's Watch, he effectively neutralized any threat to percolating plans of Illyrio/Varys. However, if Varys did not know beforehand, he had ample opportunity to learn before Ned died. Ned was incapacitated and deliriously mumbling about Lya and promises for 6 days and 7 nights. (GOT, Eddard XIII) Those walls have ears, after all, and they all report to Varys. Then, when Ned is locked in the dungeon (Rugen/Varys' dungeon, by the way), Ned prevails upon Varys to facilitate the mailing of a letter. We do not know if Varys sent such a letter nor what it might have contained, but we are assured that, if he helped Ned, he read the letter first. Later, in aFfC and aDWD, we meet Griff and the Golden Company (agents of Illyrio and Varys) and hear the very curious introduction of Young Griff as the FIRSTBORN son of Rhaegar. So it seems likely to me that Varys knows.

[LordImp]

I think maybe Quathie know too.

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

Howland Reed was the only person other than baby Jon who was at Tower of Joy and is still alive.

[Daedric Justice]

Vaeys and Illyrio - no way they know, IMO. If Varys knew about another secret Targ, he would have somehow included him in his plans by now.

______________________

I agree. If they knew they would have been all up in it from day one.

Personally, I think that Jon is a Targ but due to the fact that GRRM is a sick, sadistic and twisted barsteward, this will prove to be a massive red herring. I am convinced that R+L=J and I think the biggest clue to this is the fact that the producers of the show had to guess Jon's true parentage to get the gig. I.e. we know that the clues are there and that they are real. Whether or not this fact will actually play any part in the way the story pans out is another matter entirely!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon's milk mother, wherever she might be

Howland Reed was the only person other than baby Jon who was at Tower of Joy and is still alive.

Jon's milk mother is probably the famous Wylla, the one people (or at least Edric Dayne) believe to be his real mother. She was probably also at the ToJ helping Lyanna to give birth. So, that's at least too people who where there, if she's still alive.

If Ashara knew that Rhaegar kept Lyanna there, and House Dayne was helping them with supplies and info, I suppose it's possible some Daynes knew, like Edric's father. They all agreed on keeping Wylla with them to keep her silent about the secret, and they told the younger Daynes the lie.

[WhitewolfStark]

Am I the only person who doesn't think that R+L=J is a dead cert? I mean, every Targaryan bastard or mixed blood Targaryan seems to have the standard Targaryan features (Eyes and hair. This seems to imply a certain amount of dominance in the Targaryan genes and Jon Snow has no Targaryan features. The argumant that Stark genes are more dominant seem a bit off as most of Cat/Neds kids have Tully appearances. This just seems like too much of a difference when you consider how GRRM has used the Baratheon gene in the past to hint at parentage.

If you look at Baelor Breakspear, Rhaenys Targaryen (son of Rhaegar), Ormund Baratheon, and The World of Ice and Fire also revealed Duncan Targaryen in this matter, it appears that the first born child of a union between a Targaryen/Valyrian and a person of non-Valyrian heritage tends to 100% reflect the parent of non-Valyrian heritage. It's telling that Ormund was Rhaelle's only son, and it's also telling that Baelor, Rhaenys, and Duncan all had their lines exterminated (though Baelor Breakspear and Ormund apparently shows that passing on that 100% non-Valyrian heritage is just as much prominent in their children, as Baelor's son's only hint of Valyrian heritage is a streak of silver blonde hair in his otherwise dark hair.

The only argument I can think against this "rule" that I've inferred from the material is Rhaenyra Targaryen, but it's been suggested that she wasn't the eldest child of the union between her mother and father, but that honor went to an unknown son who died, with Rhaenrya simply being the oldest surviving child of Aemma and Viserys I.

Another gray zone is Aegon II, the Targaryen offspring of a Hightower and Viserys I, but considering in the main series that Alerie Tyrell nee Hightower has "silver hair" and can hardly be much older than Mace, (and thus far too young to have gone completely silver with age) that might be a hint that perhaps a drop or two of Valyrian blood is in the Hightowers, akin to how those features appear in the Daynes.

Jon, being the eldest born child between Lyanna and Rhaegar looking completely Stark would then make sense, as it follows the trend of the first born child of a union of that nature who reflects the non-Valyrian looking parent. And likely he passes on those non-Valyrian looking traits as a dominant if we're to look at Baelor Breakspear's son and Ormund's children as any example.

The clincher though for this theory having a possibility in my mind was the revelation of Duncan Targaryen via The World of Ice and Fire to appear exactly like his Blackwood mother.

And if this rule were "true" in general in canon, it could also give an auxilliary explination for the incest--because what better way to show that the bloodline is pure than by breeding to keep the Valyrian appearance.