Was Robert Baratheon "afraid" of Tywin?

[Garth Greenhands]

Robert wasn't the kind to be afraid of anyone but Tywin is one of the most famous and feared men in the world and Robert makes it his business not to upset him. Yes, this is because he didn't want his life to be harder than it needed to be and he had things easy with the Lannisters all around, but I have a question that may show if people think he was or wasn't :

If Tywin's plan of having Ned come to the Riverlands to capture him, would Robert, had he not been in the tangle with the boar, have shaken himself from apathy and slapped Tywin around?

I think he would have. Robert loves Ned more than anyone else in the world and he must know he's in debt to the Lannisters. I think he might have sent Tywin a royal order to release Ned, which he would refuse unless Tyrion was released. Robert could take this one of two ways : send an order to Cat to release Tyrion or flip his lid (as is not too far out of character for him). She may release Tyrion and Tywin may release Ned, but even in this case, Ned tells the king about the twincest. Now in this case Robert would certainly squash Tywin if he made a peep about basically his whole family being killed.

So say Robert just gets mad with Tywin for capturing Ned, which is not unlikely, would he fear to head to the Westerlands and wreck Tywin as a traitor? Did he fear Tywin as a man who was a better commander and more powerful than him?

[James Arryn]

Robert is afraid of no one, short term, but I think he's realistic enough to know Tywin has a lot more staying power. He loses the same kind of battle with Cersei on a pretty consistent basis. Jon Arryn was his counter-measure, and after him he tried Ned. I don't think Robert was particularly smart, but I think he recognized most of his own weaknesses.

[The Mighty Dragonzzilla]

Robert wasn't that stupid. Let me quote TV Tropes' ASOIAF page on House Baratheon:

. . . But, if you assume that means "as thick as a brick", you'd actually be wrong. Very wrong: [Robert's] just ceased to care about what's going on around him, not become utterly blind to it. He is quite cleverly manipulative in his own right, so can spot the undercurrents when others are pulling it around him. When he bothers to. That's the problem: he's smart enough to have worked out how out of his depth he is, and has given up.

[Knight Of Winter]

Robert doesn't fear anyone in the battlefield, although he is a different type of coward. He's afraid of maturity and responsibility, and runs from them and every occasion. He's afraid of hardships life might bring and instead indulges in wine and whores. He's usually afraid of taking a right and correct stance if it involves confrontation, which is why he so easily gives in to Cersei's demands.

With that said, I think he would have reacted if Tywin captured Ned. Smashing rebellious lords is something warlike Robert would love doing, not to mention his senses of friendship and pride being hurt in case Ned was captured by his vassal.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Robert is afraid of no one[...]

Not completely accurate: Robert Baratheon was afraid of confrontation, specially confrontation with the Lannisters. I think he was honest when he told Ned that he wanted to make Westeros a better place and get rid of them, but he wanted Ned to do that alone, or at least he wanted him to do mostly of the work. And even if he wanted it himself, whenever he got the chance, he would rather leave others to do it instead.

Robert (or Jon) was able to maintain the Seven Kingdoms together after the change of administration, even after Balon's Rebellion. He could have gone and tell Tywin to go and fuck himself and no one would have lifted one finger to his favour because mostly people wanted him gone. At any rate, he could have lost any war against Robert and six more Houses, lose all of his power, and get his mines confiscated. There, you have money to pay all the Crown's debts. :dunno:

[Rhaegarslance]

It was the other way around

He wrenched free of her. “Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.” The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. “A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk.”

“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”

[the storm king returns]

Of course Robert feared Tywin most sane men do, house Lannister are extremely rich and have the second largest army besides the Reach, during AGOT Robert was 6 millions in debt 3 million owed to Tywin and no real means of paying the IB of Bravos back the money they lent Robert. So a war with Tywin gives you a possible FM assasination, the need of more money since wars cost tons of that and no Lannister gold to pay it, Tywin could give support to Viserys Targaryan across the narrow sea and hire 40000 sell swords if Necessary, possibly steal the support of the Tyrells maybe useing a Jamie and Margery Tyrell marriage since name obviously would not be a KG anymore, BASICALLY suckin Tywins ass is a better option then offending him. I honestly believe if Robert heard of the Westerman attacking Riverlands he would have done nothing. If Robert knew about the incest he would rip Tywin a new one and not care if he died or not that would be to big of an insult to let go for any man.

[Garth Greenhands]

Robert is afraid of no one, short term, but I think he's realistic enough to know Tywin has a lot more staying power. He loses the same kind of battle with Cersei on a pretty consistent basis. Jon Arryn was his counter-measure, and after him he tried Ned. I don't think Robert was particularly smart, but I think he recognized most of his own weaknesses.

:agree:

Great point. I just can't see Robert not getting his panties in a bunch over Ned getting captured

[Garth Greenhands]

Of course Robert feared Tywin most sane men do, house Lannister are extremely rich and have the second largest army besides the Reach, during AGOT Robert was 6 millions in debt 3 million owed to Tywin and no real means of paying the IB of Bravos back the money they lent Robert. So a war with Tywin gives you a possible FM assasination, the need of more money since wars cost tons of that and no Lannister gold to pay it, Tywin could give support to Viserys Targaryan across the narrow sea and hire 40000 sell swords if Necessary, possibly steal the support of the Tyrells maybe useing a Jamie and Margery Tyrell marriage since name obviously would not be a KG anymore, BASICALLY suckin Tywins ass is a better option then offending him. I honestly believe if Robert heard of the Westerman attacking Riverlands he would have done nothing. If Robert knew about the incest he would rip Tywin a new one and not care if he died or not that would be to big of an insult to let go for any man.

I don't think there's any way of Tywin overcoming Robert if he wanted to put an end to him. Robert has the support of at least the North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale without a doubt. There's like 140,000 men at least. The Reach would most likely go with him too. He might even think of the benefits of getting the Casterly mines for himself or a lord he knows is loyal.

[BitsOfBrains]

I think the short answer is yes. If he hadn't feared Tywin he would have disposed of Cersei long ago.

I am of the opinion that Robert knew deep down those golden bastards weren't his kids and wanted to kill them and Cersei everyday but was afraid Tywin would have killed him first.

[Minsc]

possibly steal the support of the Tyrells maybe useing a Jamie and Margery Tyrell marriage since name obviously would not be a KG anymore,\

The Tyrells want a Queen not a Lady of a Region, thus they would likely support the side more likely to give them that objective thus a Jaime marriage offer wouldn't sway them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Not completely accurate: Robert Baratheon was afraid of confrontation, specially confrontation with the Lannisters. I think he was honest when he told Ned that he wanted to make Westeros a better place and get rid of them, but he wanted Ned to do that alone, or at least he wanted him to do mostly of the work. And even if he wanted it himself, whenever he got the chance, he would rather leave others to do it instead.

When did he say that?

I think the short answer is yes. If he hadn't feared Tywin he would have disposed of Cersei long ago.

I am of the opinion that Robert knew deep down those golden bastards weren't his kids and wanted to kill them and Cersei everyday but was afraid Tywin would have killed him first.

No. One of his last words was for Ned to take care of his children. He considered them his own.

He had no real reason to rid himself of his Queen. They wouldn't be the first King or Queen who were not on the best of terms.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

When did he say that?

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

"He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?"

"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don't know him as I do." He sighed and shook his head. "Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king." Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know."

"Your Grace . . . " Ned began, carefully.

Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. We'll make this a reign to sing of, and damn the Lannisters to seven hells.

[James Arryn]

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

"He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?"

"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don't know him as I do." He sighed and shook his head. "Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king." Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know."

"Your Grace . . . " Ned began, carefully.

Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. We'll make this a reign to sing of, and damn the Lannisters to seven hells.

Robert's very likeable in scenes like that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Robert's very likeable in scenes like that.

Which is sad because deep inside, he does know what is right and what is wrong, he simply didn't mind. What's the saying? It's worst to see something wrong and do nothing than doing actually something wrong?

[In A Coat of Gold]

He wasn't afraid, but he knew Tywin was essentially propping his crown up with gold. Offending him would bankrupt the realm. Not to mention that they are kin by marriage.

[James Arryn]

Which is sad because deep inside, he does know what is right and what is wrong, he simply didn't mind. What's the saying? It's worst to see something wrong and do nothing than doing actually something wrong?

Yeah, he's a shit king even when likable, and he'll always choose the path of least resistance if it's not something you can fix with a war hammer, but I tend to think he's basically the Laughing Storm punching above his political weight, surrounded by people who know the game better than he does. More morally lazy than morally wrong, if you get me.

[James Arryn]

He wasn't afraid, but he knew Tywin was essentially propping his crown up with gold. Offending him would bankrupt the realm. Not to mention that they are kin by marriage.

Actually, having a crown hugely in your debt can be a very dangerous place to be. Ask Jacques de Molay.

[Trigger Warning]

Being afraid of and understanding someone's power and influence are different things.

Going to war is a big undertaking with a lot of risk, even for a man that loves martial matters. Just because you will likely win doesn't make it worth it and power plays like that aren't exactly uncommon in a medieval setting and don't necessarily warrant a military reaction either especially when one faction has already captured an important member of the other.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. We'll make this a reign to sing of, and damn the Lannisters to seven hells.

Nice reference, but where does it mention he wants to rid Westeros of Lannisters?

Some of his final commands are about his half Lannister children.

"Will I dream?"

Ned gave him his answer. "You will, my lord."

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss.

Robert has appointed Jaime as his Warden of the East, despite Ned strongly disagreeing and suggesting his own brothers. His overall actions do not speak of wanting to be rid of the Lannisters, but actually cementing their position.

Just like your example does not mean he wanted the Lannisters gone, this quote does not mean he wanted Ned dead:

Robert's face was purple. "Out," he croaked, choking on his rage. "Out, damn you, I'm done with you. What are you waiting for? Go, run back to Winterfell. And make certain I never look on your face again, or I swear, I'll have your head on a spike!"