Was Robert Baratheon "afraid" of Tywin?

[Trigger Warning]

He wasn't afraid, but he knew Tywin was essentially propping his crown up with gold. Offending him would bankrupt the realm. Not to mention that they are kin by marriage.

If anything that makes war with Tywin more appealing to Robert.

[Knight Of Winter]

Yeah, I often hard it very hard to dislike Robert. Whoremonger, terrible king, abusive husband and inattentive father, he has all the prerequisites of being easily hate-able character (and actually is, for a good portion or readership). But there's something endearing about his simple joviality, ability to forgive and charisma. Save from his relationship with Targaryens, I rarely felt any active malice on his part, actual desire to screw things up for somebody - rather, his faults are there because of escapism of willful ignorance.

Actually, having a crown hugely in your debt can be a very dangerous place to be. Ask Jacques de Molay.

Ironically, I've seen quite elaborate post about parallels of Tywin with Phillip IV.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, I often hard it very hard to dislike Robert. Whoremonger, terrible king, abusive husband and inattentive father, he has all the prerequisites of being easily hate-able character (and actually is, for a good portion or readership). But there's something endearing about his simple joviality, ability to forgive and charisma. Save from his relationship with Targaryens, I rarely felt any active malice on his part, actual desire to screw things up for somebody - rather, his faults are there because of escapism of willful ignorance.

Ironically, I've seen quite elaborate post about parallels of Tywin with Phillip IV.

If I had to pick the single most appealing quality a person can have, I'd choose the ability to genuinely laugh at yourself, and Robert has that. Like Jaime and Tyrion, it can make up for a lot of otherwise unappealing behaviour.

I can def. see Phillip the Fair qualities; Isabella and Cersei, too.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

 

I think the short answer is yes. If he hadn't feared Tywin he would have disposed of Cersei long ago.

I am of the opinion that Robert knew deep down those golden bastards weren't his kids and wanted to kill them and Cersei everyday but was afraid Tywin would have killed him first.

 

He owed Tywin a lot of money which made him look the other way on a lot of things. I think he knew those kids weren't his either. He's met enough of his own bastards. Not even Dunk was that thick. It is interesting that Renly was trying to get Margaery to beguile Robert away from Cersei though. I remember him asking Ned if the girl looked like his sister Lyanna. There was that plan to get the Lannisters out of King's Landing. It failed of course.

On the way to King's Landing, I think Robert was fishing around for information about who Ned's bastard's mother really was. I think he had figured out that Lyanna, being rather a wild wolf, would not have been so easy to hold for so long.

Its like Robert said, Rhaegar won the war. All Robert wanted was Lyanna, and Rhaegar had her still, even in death. He didn't give a damn about politics and while I think he would have seen other women, I think he would have loved Lyanna til he died. Well, he did. Robert wasn't after a crown, he wanted Lyanna. After she died he became bitter and depressed. He married Cersei to keep Jon Arryn happy, he owed him that respect, but he loathed her,

By the way, I do not happen to think Jon's first name is Jon, I think its Aegon. I think Ned just called him Jon because it made it that much easier for someone to believe he was his son, by calling his own bastard after Jon Arryn. Although, I think somewhere in Stark history, there was also a Jon Stark.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Afraid? No... the only thing he feared were moral discussions and immortality...

But respect? Yes, even a larger than life guy like Robert had to respect the threat Tywin could pose if provoked, not in a war and never in single combat of course... but Tywin's experience, cunning and power could hurt Robert, heck it could hurt anyone... without battle or major violence being involved...

[ThePosterThatWasPromised]

If Ned told him about the twincest, Robert would have taken Cersei and Jaime's heads off, married Margeary Tyrell and told Tywin to go fuck himself.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If Ned told him about the twincest, Robert would have taken Cersei and Jaime's heads off, married Margeary Tyrell and told Tywin to go fuck himself.

If he believed him. If he didn't he would have taken Neds head off.

[James Arryn]

If he believed him. If he didn't he would have taken Neds head off.

No, that's silly. He didn't even execute people who openly rebelled against him. He was way more noise than action off the battlefield. Jon Arryn didn't seem to fear contradicting him at all.

[Lee-Sensei]

If he believed him. If he didn't he would have taken Neds head off.

I don't know what book you've been reading, but Robert wouldn't take Neds head off for accusing the Lannisters of something. Ned was like a brother to him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know what book you've been reading, but Robert wouldn't take Neds head off for accusing the Lannisters of something. Ned was like a brother to him.

He also would be very grateful to have information that helped to get rid of Cersei for good. The main reason Stannis didn't tell him was because he knew he wouldn't believe him, as they didn't like each other and this situation would be suspiciously too convenient for Stannis. But Robert would believe Ned, specially if Ned told him Jon Arryn also knew and that was the reason he died.

[Martin Lasarte]

Actually, having a crown hugely in your debt can be a very dangerous place to be. Ask Jacques de Molay.

Nice reference. In fact, in 14th century France every single creditor of the French Crown ended up getting screwed: the Templars, the Jews, the Italian merchants (called Lombards by the French), since the King could simply imprison, burn them or expel them from the country. Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings novels touch the subject extensively.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No, that's silly. He didn't even execute people who openly rebelled against him. He was way more noise than action off the battlefield. Jon Arryn didn't seem to fear contradicting him at all.

When did Arryn contradict him?

And why didn't Jon, Stannis or even Ned bring up the suggestion of incest if he was so easy going?

They were all partly scared of how he would react towards them. This news makes him look like the biggest fool in Westeros, not something many men would eagerly accept.

I don't know what book you've been reading, but Robert wouldn't take Neds head off for accusing the Lannisters of something. Ned was like a brother to him.

Telling a man that he has been cuckolded and his children are not his is a serious accusation, one that rarely gets a light response whether they believe you or not.

Robert threatened to have his head when Ned disagreed about assassinating Dany. Something like this is much, much worse.

Robert is not necessarily going to take Neds word just because he is his friend, he didn't when Ned arrested Tyrion and said that Tyrion was responsible for the assassination attempt on his son.

Robert might be hugely disappointed in Joffrey, but that is still a long way from accepting his three children are bastards, bastards that he would need to dispose of, and the humiliation that comes with that. People who think that he would be grateful for this knowledge know very little of basic human nature.

edit: Just to be clear. I'm not predicting which way Robert would have went, he may have believed but had he not he would not have taken such an accusation easily.

[Lee-Sensei]

When did Arryn contradict him?

And why didn't Jon, Stannis or even Ned bring up the suggestion of incest if he was so easy going?

They were all partly scared of how he would react towards them. This news makes him look like the biggest fool in Westeros, not something many men would eagerly accept.

Telling a man that he has been cuckolded and his children are not his is a serious accusation, one that rarely gets a light response whether they believe you or not.

Robert threatened to have his head when Ned disagreed about assassinating Dany. Something like this is much, much worse.

Robert is not necessarily going to take Neds word just because he is his friend, he didn't when Ned arrested Tyrion and said that Tyrion was responsible for the assassination attempt on his son.

Robert might be hugely disappointed in Joffrey, but that is still a long way from accepting his three children are bastards, bastards that he would need to dispose of, and the humiliation that comes with that. People who think that he would be grateful for this knowledge know very little of basic human nature.

edit: Just to be clear. I'm not predicting which way Robert would have went, he may have believed but had he not he would not have taken such an accusation easily.

1) A threat is all i was. He was never going to execute him.

2) Ned didn't get a chance to tell him that Tyrion tried to kill his son IIRC.

3) Grateful to get rid of Cersei? Yes.

4) He wouldn't kill his best friend for acusing the wife he hates and the brother-in-law he dislikes of high treason.

[Alester Florent]

Yeah, I'm going to echo the general consensus, I think: Robert wasn't stupid, or particularly morally deficient at least by Westerosi standards, and not, in the sense normally meant, cowardly. But he's lazy and weak-willed, and, by the time we meet him, tired.

Worse, he knows all of this, but he doesn't have the strength of character to shake it off. He's absolutely right that Ned would have made a better king than him. Robert's not an administrator or a manager; he's a problem-eliminator. Point him at something and he'll smash it to pieces, and moreover induce others to follow him and help, but he won't have any idea how to put it back together again.

Then he's put in an environment while still very young where putting things back together is exactly what needs to happen. He knows enough to know he's no good at that, so he gets out of the way and lets Jon get on with it, but in the absence of anything to do with himself that holds his attention or that he has any interest in - and moreover most likely very depressed after losing Lyanna, let's not forget - he gives in to temptations of the flesh.

By the time of Balon's rebellion he's still young enough and angry enough that he can shake himself out of his torpor and, however briefly, become the blunt instrument he previously was. Joffrey is still young at that point so he might still be riding high on the flush of fatherhood, before Joff becomes a disappointment to him. But after thirteen years of increasing waistline and creature comforts, thirteen years of being constantly harangued and challenged and undermined by his appalling wife (which is not to say he doesn't bear any responsibility for the state of that marriage) and her smug relatives, I have to wonder how much he has left in the tank.

This is, I think, why he avoids confrontation with Tywin. It's not that he doesn't recognise - at least to an extent - what the Lannisters are. It's just that any time anything comes up, he makes the calculation in his head about whether he has the energy to deal with it, knows how stubborn and resilient Tywin is, and decides he doesn't. So he puts it off and puts it off and Tywin keeps getting more powerful, and remains hungry and lean and sharp while Robert sinks into a torpor. He takes pleasure in their comeuppances, but does nothing to engineer them himself.

Bringing Ned to King's Landing was probably an attempt to jerk himself out of it, as even he hints at. By reuniting the old team from when he was vigorous and full of life he thinks he can still get not just the kingdom but himself back into line and start behaving properly. But there's a lot of inertia, and he's had too many years of being the king to give it up easily.

That's why I think realistically Robert is probably already gone by the time we see him. He knows what needs doing, but he can't bring himself to do it. I don't think Ned's being captured would change that; Robert would no doubt shout and bang the table and order the Small Council to move heaven and earth to get him back, but would he get his fat backside up out of the Iron Throne and take his hammer to smash Tywin? I can't see it. Especially if they had Ned as a hostage.

Even if Ned were killed, would he go for it? Jon Arryn's death may have given him a wake-up call, but he pushed the snooze button, rolled over and told Ned to go make him breakfast. Ned's death could push him either way. It might be the thing that finally unchained the old Robert once more and inspired the furious rage that drove him back when Lyanna was taken... or it could be the final straw that sees him enter his terminal decline and just give up.

[Garth Greenhands]

Yeah, I'm going to echo the general consensus, I think: Robert wasn't stupid, or particularly morally deficient at least by Westerosi standards, and not, in the sense normally meant, cowardly. But he's lazy and weak-willed, and, by the time we meet him, tired.

Worse, he knows all of this, but he doesn't have the strength of character to shake it off. He's absolutely right that Ned would have made a better king than him. Robert's not an administrator or a manager; he's a problem-eliminator. Point him at something and he'll smash it to pieces, and moreover induce others to follow him and help, but he won't have any idea how to put it back together again.

Then he's put in an environment while still very young where putting things back together is exactly what needs to happen. He knows enough to know he's no good at that, so he gets out of the way and lets Jon get on with it, but in the absence of anything to do with himself that holds his attention or that he has any interest in - and moreover most likely very depressed after losing Lyanna, let's not forget - he gives in to temptations of the flesh.

By the time of Balon's rebellion he's still young enough and angry enough that he can shake himself out of his torpor and, however briefly, become the blunt instrument he previously was. Joffrey is still young at that point so he might still be riding high on the flush of fatherhood, before Joff becomes a disappointment to him. But after thirteen years of increasing waistline and creature comforts, thirteen years of being constantly harangued and challenged and undermined by his appalling wife (which is not to say he doesn't bear any responsibility for the state of that marriage) and her smug relatives, I have to wonder how much he has left in the tank.

This is, I think, why he avoids confrontation with Tywin. It's not that he doesn't recognise - at least to an extent - what the Lannisters are. It's just that any time anything comes up, he makes the calculation in his head about whether he has the energy to deal with it, knows how stubborn and resilient Tywin is, and decides he doesn't. So he puts it off and puts it off and Tywin keeps getting more powerful, and remains hungry and lean and sharp while Robert sinks into a torpor. He takes pleasure in their comeuppances, but does nothing to engineer them himself.

Bringing Ned to King's Landing was probably an attempt to jerk himself out of it, as even he hints at. By reuniting the old team from when he was vigorous and full of life he thinks he can still get not just the kingdom but himself back into line and start behaving properly. But there's a lot of inertia, and he's had too many years of being the king to give it up easily.

That's why I think realistically Robert is probably already gone by the time we see him. He knows what needs doing, but he can't bring himself to do it. I don't think Ned's being captured would change that; Robert would no doubt shout and bang the table and order the Small Council to move heaven and earth to get him back, but would he get his fat backside up out of the Iron Throne and take his hammer to smash Tywin? I can't see it. Especially if they had Ned as a hostage.

Even if Ned were killed, would he go for it? Jon Arryn's death may have given him a wake-up call, but he pushed the snooze button, rolled over and told Ned to go make him breakfast. Ned's death could push him either way. It might be the thing that finally unchained the old Robert once more and inspired the furious rage that drove him back when Lyanna was taken... or it could be the final straw that sees him enter his terminal decline and just give up.

I can't disagree with any of that. I just like Robert and am optimistic he would move heaven and earth himself if someone slighted him by f***ing with Ned, not to mention slighting Ned who he respects more than anyone.

I really think Robert kinda wished he was a Northman

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I can't disagree with any of that. I just like Robert and am optimistic he would move heaven and earth himself if someone slighted him by f***ing with Ned, not to mention slighting Ned who he respects more than anyone.

I really think Robert kinda wished he was a Northman

Really?

He didnt think too kindly to the North in AGOT. We know that he had never visited Ned in the North in the past 18 years but had spent time in other parts of the realm.

Liking Ned is not the same as wanting to be a Northman.

[James Arryn]

When did Arryn contradict him?

All the time, apparently. Over the budget, over Dorne, etc. It's more than once said 'even Jon Arryn couldn't make Robert ____' which presumably suggests Jon Arryn is the guy who normally gets Robert to do what Robert does not want to do.

And why didn't Jon, Stannis or even Ned bring up the suggestion of incest if he was so easy going?

Ned explicitly doesn't do so because he fears for the children, not for himself. And then on his deathbed it's just pointless pain. Stannis...it depends how absolutely you credit Stannis on matters involving his own pride/agenda. Some people give him unprecedented carte blanche, I am much more skeptical.

They were all partly scared of how he would react towards them. This news makes him look like the biggest fool in Westeros, not something many men would eagerly accept.

Only Stannis acts out of any personal fear, and his actions also tally with other motivations. When Ned confronts Cersei, she doesn't seem to think there's much chance that Robert takes her side over Ned's, and she knows him as well as anyone.

Telling a man that he has been cuckolded and his children are not his is a serious accusation, one that rarely gets a light response whether they believe you or not.

Robert's never been a shoot the messenger type. We notably don't even know who told him about Lyanna/Rhaegar. He has many flaws, but this has never been one of them. I think he'd rage and turn purple and w/e, as he does, but that's about the extent of it. And if you want to get deeper, this news would present him with an ideal excuse for the failure he knows his kingship to be. He gets to be Alexandrian in his solutions again, rather than dealing with all the everyday complications he doesn't enjoy. He returns to 'identify target; destroy target; it's all good with everyone else' halcyon days of yore.

Robert threatened to have his head when Ned disagreed about assassinating Dany. Something like this is much, much worse.

Threatened being the proverbial word. Much worse AND much better. There is no upside to agreeing with Ned about Dany, but with this he gets a total mulligan. The wife he hates and the children he doesn't know or like are suddenly not his burden. Newer, younger wife who might not despise him. Kids who might look or act like him. Robert IMO says 'yes, please' after he gets over the bluster. He's played the victim before, and liked it.

Robert is not necessarily going to take Neds word just because he is his friend, he didn't when Ned arrested Tyrion and said that Tyrion was responsible for the assassination attempt on his son.

He didn't disbelieve him either. He wasn't directly affected, and only took time to address how he WAS directly affected. He'll wash his hands whenever possible, which is not at all the same thing as killing the messenger.

Robert might be hugely disappointed in Joffrey, but that is still a long way from accepting his three children are bastards, bastards that he would need to dispose of, and the humiliation that comes with that. People who think that he would be grateful for this knowledge know very little of basic human nature.

I think you're choosing the part of human nature that fits your argument. Look at it like a mid-life crisis opportunity.

edit: Just to be clear. I'm not predicting which way Robert would have went, he may have believed but had he not he would not have taken such an accusation easily.

I don't think it would be painless, no. But I can be pretty sure Ned's life wouldn't be endangered. I never felt it was when Robert was yelling at him.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, I'm going to echo the general consensus, I think: Robert wasn't stupid, or particularly morally deficient at least by Westerosi standards, and not, in the sense normally meant, cowardly. But he's lazy and weak-willed, and, by the time we meet him, tired.

Worse, he knows all of this, but he doesn't have the strength of character to shake it off. He's absolutely right that Ned would have made a better king than him. Robert's not an administrator or a manager; he's a problem-eliminator. Point him at something and he'll smash it to pieces, and moreover induce others to follow him and help, but he won't have any idea how to put it back together again.

Then he's put in an environment while still very young where putting things back together is exactly what needs to happen. He knows enough to know he's no good at that, so he gets out of the way and lets Jon get on with it, but in the absence of anything to do with himself that holds his attention or that he has any interest in - and moreover most likely very depressed after losing Lyanna, let's not forget - he gives in to temptations of the flesh.

By the time of Balon's rebellion he's still young enough and angry enough that he can shake himself out of his torpor and, however briefly, become the blunt instrument he previously was. Joffrey is still young at that point so he might still be riding high on the flush of fatherhood, before Joff becomes a disappointment to him. But after thirteen years of increasing waistline and creature comforts, thirteen years of being constantly harangued and challenged and undermined by his appalling wife (which is not to say he doesn't bear any responsibility for the state of that marriage) and her smug relatives, I have to wonder how much he has left in the tank.

This is, I think, why he avoids confrontation with Tywin. It's not that he doesn't recognise - at least to an extent - what the Lannisters are. It's just that any time anything comes up, he makes the calculation in his head about whether he has the energy to deal with it, knows how stubborn and resilient Tywin is, and decides he doesn't. So he puts it off and puts it off and Tywin keeps getting more powerful, and remains hungry and lean and sharp while Robert sinks into a torpor. He takes pleasure in their comeuppances, but does nothing to engineer them himself.

Bringing Ned to King's Landing was probably an attempt to jerk himself out of it, as even he hints at. By reuniting the old team from when he was vigorous and full of life he thinks he can still get not just the kingdom but himself back into line and start behaving properly. But there's a lot of inertia, and he's had too many years of being the king to give it up easily.

That's why I think realistically Robert is probably already gone by the time we see him. He knows what needs doing, but he can't bring himself to do it. I don't think Ned's being captured would change that; Robert would no doubt shout and bang the table and order the Small Council to move heaven and earth to get him back, but would he get his fat backside up out of the Iron Throne and take his hammer to smash Tywin? I can't see it. Especially if they had Ned as a hostage.

Even if Ned were killed, would he go for it? Jon Arryn's death may have given him a wake-up call, but he pushed the snooze button, rolled over and told Ned to go make him breakfast. Ned's death could push him either way. It might be the thing that finally unchained the old Robert once more and inspired the furious rage that drove him back when Lyanna was taken... or it could be the final straw that sees him enter his terminal decline and just give up.

Excellent post.

Minor disagreement about how he'd confront another 'revenge war' scenario...IMO it would fit him to a T. He's not so much physically lazy as intellectually/morally. He hates confrontations with any kinds of nuance and complex repercussions, but black vs. white, me vs. you, good guy vs. bad guy payback type of conflict IMO returns him to his element. Ned being killed would give him that, it would be Lyana Redux.

[James Arryn]

Nice reference. In fact, in 14th century France every single creditor of the French Crown ended up getting screwed: the Templars, the Jews, the Italian merchants (called Lombards by the French), since the King could simply imprison, burn them or expel them from the country. Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings novels touch the subject extensively.

Salut!

Also the Jews get routinely screwed in any medieval history/story. Prohibited from any profession but money-lending and then painted as mercenary for taking that one option. I will never understand how 'Christ killers' made sense to bigots while simultaneously overlooking Christ BEING Jewish. Dunno, people are strange.

[Jasta11]

If I had to pick the single most appealing quality a person can have, I'd choose the ability to genuinely laugh at yourself, and Robert has that. Like Jaime and Tyrion, it can make up for a lot of otherwise unappealing behaviour.

I can def. see Phillip the Fair qualities; Isabella and Cersei, too.

Didn't GRRM say that he based a lot of the story on the Rois Maudits (Accursed Kings in english) series of novels? The parralels indeed show up from time to time.