Seven Sighs Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 First post to the forum, so forgive me if this has ever come up. I was recently talking about the R+L=J theory with a few friends, and it was pointed out that Renly once commented to Ned that Margery resembled Lyanna, something Ned dismissed. It dawned on me how odd this seemed if it had no meaning. Given that it is assumed Lyanna died of childbirth complications, is it nuts to contemplate that perhaps she gave birth to twins? It would explain the Tyrell's obsession with making Margery Queen at all costs, other than their own ambition of course. There is also the rumor that Ashara Dayne threw herself to her death after hearing of her brother's death at the TOJ, but that she also gave birth to a baby girl that died. Maybe Ned had an infant with him and this story was spread to explain it if someone saw or heard the child? It's a stretch, but then again Mace Tyrell was married to a Hightower, whose great uncle was KG at the TOJ and would have been charged with protecting the heir/heirs. So perhaps the idea was to hide the child/children within the families of those KG present that knew of the birth, and Ashara Dayne was first choice but then killed herself with grief. They then turned to the family of Gerold Hightower, and placed the baby girl with Mace Tyrell and his wife Alerie and Jon ends up going with Ned because he can't bring himself to give up both Lyanna's children, and knows that two infants would be even harder for Cat to accept than just one. I have no idea if there is any textual evidence other than Renly's statement to suggest this, or any that completely proves it could not be possible, but would love to hear what people have to say on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Sighs Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 I should say also, that IF there was anything to this, it would be my guess that Margery knows the truth, which kind of explains why she is so interested in and kind to Sansa instead of seeing her as on obstacle or threat. I mean, if this young girl is just so hell bent on becoming queen that she would marry ANYONE, including a man who preferred men, an incest spawned sadist, and a child, wouldn't that kind of ambition make her see Sansa as someone to get rid of, not become friends with? She almost takes her under her wing, like family, and wants to protect her. There is also the obvious connection with Ned remembering Lyanna and the blue roses...Roses/Tyrell. It would keep coming back to him more knowing her daughter was being raised in secret as a Tyrell. Also, how would this theory work into LF and Lady Olenna plotting together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Fork Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Renly was hoping to get Robert to have the hots for Margaery based on a resemblance that didn't exist so he'd ditch Cersei. The Tyrells are power-hungry assholes because that's just who they are. She's not anyone but the daughter of Mace Tyrell and Alerie Hightower, and given all the shit the Hightowers have pulled throughout history, that's more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePosterThatWasPromised Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I should say also, that IF there was anything to this, it would be my guess that Margery knows the truth, which kind of explains why she is so interested in and kind to Sansa instead of seeing her as on obstacle or threat. I mean, if this young girl is just so hell bent on becoming queen that she would marry ANYONE, including a man who preferred men, an incest spawned sadist, and a child, wouldn't that kind of ambition make her see Sansa as someone to get rid of, not become friends with? She almost takes her under her wing, like family, and wants to protect her. There is also the obvious connection with Ned remembering Lyanna and the blue roses...Roses/Tyrell. It would keep coming back to him more knowing her daughter was being raised in secret as a Tyrell. Also, how would this theory work into LF and Lady Olenna plotting together? I feel like Margeary realized she had won the battle over Sansa for queenhood and recognized her as an ally. Margeary is pretty politically savvy. It wouldn't surprise me if Olenna told her to make friends with Sansa and try and sell her on the marriage to Willas. If all the sudden the key to north is plucked from the Lannisters, that's a nice move. As for the actual theory, it's possible, but extremely unlikely I'd say. First, as Valyrian Fork mentioned, Renly was probably trying to sell Margeary to Robert. Also, why families of the Kingsguard? If she actually looked like Lyanna, there's no reason for Ned not to take them both back as his bastards. Why wouldn't he have shipped Jon off also? Lastly, wouldn't it make more sense to send him to Leyton Hightower? Why Alerie? EDIT: also, welcome to the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Sighs Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 I was thinking of families of the KG only because they died protecting the secret and the child/children, and their families might honor that sacrifice by keeping the secret. Ned immediately goes to Ashara Dayne first after the TOJ and it seemed too coincidental that there was a rumor of her giving birth at the same time. Perhaps his intention was for one to go there to hide and another to the Hightowers? I agree it is very far-fetched at best. Alerie would have been the best choice over Leyton because she had children the same age and it would have been easier to blend in a fourth child without much notice. Totally agree that the move to friend Sansa and marry her to Willas was good for the Tyrells in the long run, and probably their motive. I will have to do a reread of Renly comparing Margery to Lyanna as I don't exactly recall the context, but I didn't remember him trying to persuade Robert to show interest in her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I should say also, that IF there was anything to this, it would be my guess that Margery knows the truth, which kind of explains why she is so interested in and kind to Sansa instead of seeing her as on obstacle or threat. I mean, if this young girl is just so hell bent on becoming queen that she would marry ANYONE, including a man who preferred men, an incest spawned sadist, and a child, wouldn't that kind of ambition make her see Sansa as someone to get rid of, not become friends with? She almost takes her under her wing, like family, and wants to protect her. Sansa was no threat to Margaery, at that point. She was already denounced as a traitor's daughter, and unfit for the King to marry. Margaery was only kind to her for the potential extension of Tyrell power to the North. It wasn't genuine, and her their friendship ended when Sansa lost her value to the Tyrells (i.e. when Tywin wed her to Tyrion). IIRC, Marge doesn't even speak to Sansa, after the Willas plan went bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avlonnic Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I was thinking of families of the KG only because they died protecting the secret and the child/children, and their families might honor that sacrifice by keeping the secret. Ned immediately goes to Ashara Dayne first after the TOJ and it seemed too coincidental that there was a rumor of her giving birth at the same time. Perhaps his intention was for one to go there to hide and another to the Hightowers? I agree it is very far-fetched at best. Alerie would have been the best choice over Leyton because she had children the same age and it would have been easier to blend in a fourth child without much notice. Totally agree that the move to friend Sansa and marry her to Willas was good for the Tyrells in the long run, and probably their motive. I will have to do a reread of Renly comparing Margery to Lyanna as I don't exactly recall the context, but I didn't remember him trying to persuade Robert to show interest in her. Yes, I have read this theory elsewhere but little came of it. In GOT, Renly showed the portrait of Marg to Eddard and also to Robert...Cersei found out and assumed Robert would set her aside for a younger bride before too long. I believe Marg is a Tyrell. (Also Robert doesn't recall what Lyanna looked like with much accuracy - she's just the one that got away.) Regardless of whether all the Tyrells agree, I think the prevailing motivator was to provide a highborn, beautiful, gracious bride for Willas, and Sansa fits the bill. Willas is the heir to Highgarden; beyond his handicap, what little we learn about him hints at chivalry, intelligence, strong leadership, military planning (sharing intelligence)...a man respected by his family and even supposed 'opponents' like Oberyn. Also, I think the Tyrell family might have delighted in seeing Winterfell as a 'dowry' of sorts to increase the Tyrell power base, but Willas the Valiant does not need Sansa's claim. Truly, Willas could do a lot worse in the spouse department - as could Sansa. After reading the books the first time, I was hoping Sansa and Willas would meet in the air, having discovered they can both skinchange birds. Total crackpot but sweet! Alas. This is Martin's world and such things are always just out of reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Seems very hard to pull off. Both Tyrell's and Hightowers are high profile houses with very courtly traditions, meaning tons of ladies-in-waiting, meaning a fake pregnancy or un-pregnancy would likely be noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rahloo Connington Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 At one point in the books Cersei notes how similar Margery and and Loras look, she was toying with the idea of starting an incest rumor about them. Sansa also notes that Garlan looks like a Taller bearded Loras. I'm pretty convinced they come from the same parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 This is a new one. I've heard R+L= Jon & MEERA, though. I'd post the relevant threads, but searching my old content is disabled at the moment. As to Margaery being Jon's twin- Nope, nope, nope. No way no how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I thought the M was for Meera, which would make more sense. Kinda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I thought the M was for Meera, which would make more sense. Kinda.Melissandre? Mopatis? Mya? Micah? Mereen?Oh, God, it's Mereen. That whole storyline finally makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Melissandre? Mopatis? Mya? Micah? Mereen?Oh, God, it's Mereen. That whole storyline finally makes sense. Don't get it. Meeren is Meera's twin or Jon's? D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Don't get it. Meeren is Meera's twin or Jon's? D:Either works, but the crucial point being it's a teenager, which explains how it acts around the hot girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 M is clearly for 'Mhysa'. You see, there was this lemon tree and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I thought the M was for Meera, which would make more sense. Kinda. I came to this thread with desire to tell that Margaery is 16, and that she can work. I guess nonsense beat me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmnomnomPomelo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 No offense, but it's bullshit nothing more. Martin really should write faster and publish the next book, coz more and more fakked up theories born every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I came to this thread with desire to tell that Margaery is 16, and that she can work. I guess nonsense beat me... But Meera's hair = Bran's wig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I thought the M was for Meera, which would make more sense. Kinda. True. I mean how could Marg who looks nothing like a Targ or a Stark be Jon's twin and why she was given to the Tyrells who bend the knee and not to her uncle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling Mad Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Advanced algebra problems like these are tough and you logic seems to be a bit off. How did you solve for M? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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