Lord Ser Septon Maester Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 House Targaryen is known for the "madness" of various members, there's debate over whether this is a result of megalomania resulting from being raised as literal royalty or actually insanity to which members of the Targaryen line are genetically predisposed. By and large there's a strong case to be made for the former for instance Viserys who starts life as a prince goes bonkers trying to get the back but Dany grows up in exile and turns out more or less okay. But I think the strongest case would be Joffrey who shows all the traits of Targaryen madness, megalomania, violence, sadism, penchant for death and suffering, cowardice when actually confronted with battle, and fanatical devotion to his station, all of which is associated with Targaryens but Joffrey is a double Lannister. It could be argued that Joffrey's incest-based birth had a detrimental effect similar to the Targaryen incests, but the Targaryens practiced compound incest which is a much bigger risk than the first generation incest that led to Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I don't think that he disproves it outright but he is a very good argument against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ser Septon Maester Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 I don't think that he disproves it outright but he is a very good argument against it. That's fair, I also wouldn't call him total proof but he'd be Exhibit A if were to argue against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Joff's attitude was the result of entitlement issues of being the King's son and heir. Meaning his reactions to certain events were based off of, "not getting his way" as opposed to being genetically disposed to bouts of insanity. That and the constant need to try and impress his, "father". Targs, at least Areys & Visy, IMO, are predisposed to what we now call PTSD, meaning an event or series of events that are too much for the individual to handle, cause a mental break. Just my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Just because there is another crazy person in the world, doesn't mean there is no Targaryen craziness. That said, Targaryen family tree had a lot of persons that can go into some of mental disease category, thing is that there are a lot of those who were mentally sane. I mean, ideas of grandeur can indeed do a number on person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangII Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I think a lot of his failures as a ruler are Cersei's education, as we can observe how Cersei actually rules. I don't think cowardice is a Targaryen trace. Most the "mad" and brutal Targaryen (Maegor, Aemond, Aegon II, Aerion) weren't cowards. They were cruel and stupid, but didn't back off in the face of conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I think that a lot of people believing the Targaryens were crazy is just the Targaryens being "I'm royalty, motherfuckers! Blood of the Dragon! I can do what I like!" and then actually doing what they want like drinking wildfire. Was Aerion really mad or was he just and entitled brat? Was Maegor really mad or was he just an incapable ruler who believed cruelty was the only way? What about Baelor? Daemon? If the Targaryens were known to be mad, then why is only the last of them who was known as the MAD one? In 300 years none of them was worthy to earn that title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ser Septon Maester Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 I think that a lot of people believing the Targaryens were crazy is just the Targaryens being "I'm royalty, motherfuckers! Blood of the Dragon! I can do what I like!" and then actually doing what they want like drinking wildfire. Was Aerion really mad or was he just and entitled brat? Was Maegor really mad or was he just an incapable ruler who believed cruelty was the only way? What about Baelor? Daemon? If the Targaryens were known to be mad, then why is only the last of them who was known as the MAD one? In 300 years none of them was worthy to earn that title? I think Aerys was the genuinely a nutter but I think what they were raised to think of themselves accounts for most of the Targaryen's issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Madness is a human condition, Targaryens, Lannisters, ets are humans, so they are prone to have cases of it... Targaryens were popular as royalty so their mad ones were known better than others.... the genetic distribution didn´t help either, but that's debatable even today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ser Septon Maester Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 I think a lot of his failures as a ruler are Cersei's education, as we can observe how Cersei actually rules. I don't think cowardice is a Targaryen trace. Most the "mad" and brutal Targaryen (Maegor, Aemond, Aegon II, Aerion) weren't cowards. They were cruel and stupid, but didn't back off in the face of conflict. I don't mean Targaryens are cowards, certainly we see Targaryens with brass balls, like the ones you mentioned, the Dragonknight, Baelor (dude steeped in a bleeding snake pit) but mostly I meant Aerys, who couldn't face anything without his guards to do the dirty work same as Joff who commands brutalities but runs from battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Part of it is likely the attitude instilled into a person when they are repeatedly told they are "The last of the Dragonlords, the Blood of the Dragons, the survivors of Valyria, the rylers of the entire continent of Westeros". Another part might be the pressure put on a person with those expectations (as was the case with Viserys). But that said, I do not think nutter like Daerons son Rhaegal, Aerion, Aegon IV, Aerys II or Viserys if they didn't already suffer from some issues. Aerys II for example seemed to suffer from some kind of nasty paranoid schizophrenia. The Targaryen madness might be a real thing. These kind of conditions might be more common among their lines than in other families, and the incest might make them more frequent... but I do not think they are as frequent as many seem to believe, and a lot of the Targaryens have been very competent men and women, while some were just average. Joffrey is an example of an individual with Antisocial Personality Disorder who was instilled with massive entitlement issues and has overall had some really indulgent, neglectful parenting. Combine that with him being rotten to the core and you've got Caligula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Haha, maybe Joff was a secret Targ or something. No, it probably had to do with incest. The Lannister twins did incest, so did the Targs, thus madness as result (some times). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Does a non-smoker getting lung cancer disprove the carcinogenic effects of cigarettes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssalix Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 unless Joanna actually slept with Aerys in the night of their wedding, thus jaime and cersei become targaryens, which explains their incest stuff. That way Joeffry is only more evidence for the targaryen madness. This makes sense because that would mean that tyrion, the only child tywin despised, was the only child that truly belonged to tywin. (poetic justice or some shit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Does a non-smoker getting lung cancer disprove the carcinogenic effects of cigarettes? Yep. That's a silly thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Many want to explain Joffrey's behaviour by some mental disorder but everything he does is very explicable by mere entitlement. Let's take, for example, Lindsay Lohan and her mother. Lindsay was given too much freedom since she was a young girl, and she had access to more money she was meant to have at her age. This and the fact she was a beloved popular actress made her believe she could do everything she wanted to do, and she was many times arrested for DUI, something we know is more likely to hurt others than herself. She obviously didn't care. Considering her mother was cashing from her work and had a sense of power due to her daughter's status, she decided that the best thing to do was being always on her side and started to defend every single of her misdeeds and blame everybody instead of her own terrible parenting. Now, people don't say LL is mad. She has probably damaged her own brain with the drugs, but that's not the reason she started to misbehaved. Joffrey is the same case. He wasn't born mad. Or at least, nothing can assure us he did. The whole thing with the cat was terrible but there was an explanation: he wanted Robert's attention. That's when both his parents should have acted upon and said "this is wrong: hurting others is not right". Instead, he learned that no matter what he could have done, he should never take responsibilities and his mother would defend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 He doesn't disprove anything because no one said only Targaryens can be crazy, it's just the incident rate is much higher in that particular house. Ramsay is a crazy, sadistic fuck and he's not a Targaryen. Many want to explain Joffrey's behaviour by some mental disorder but everything he does is very explicable by mere entitlement. Joffrey is the same case. He wasn't born mad. Or at least, nothing can assure us he did. The whole thing with the cat was terrible but there was an explanation: he wanted Robert's attention. That's when both his parents should have acted upon and said "this is wrong: hurting others is not right". Instead, he learned that no matter what he could have done, he should never take responsibilities and his mother would defend him.Also things like psychopathy and sociopathy can also have a learned behaviour component. The one constant authority in his life encouraged that behaviour and here we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseka Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Every single Targaryen is a product of incense because of the dynasty's tradition. Joffrey is a product of incense, as were both of his parents. He's a rare case in House Lannister though, whereas that's the norm in House Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 one word: incest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Every single Targaryen is a product of incense because of the dynasty's tradition. Joffrey is a product of incense, as were both of his parents. He's a rare case in House Lannister though, whereas that's the norm in House Targaryen. Aerion's parents were not brother and sisters and he was one of the most... objectionable of the Targaryens. Also, they were product of incest, not incense. Some of them were very flammable but who knows how they smelt when torched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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