Rape in the world of ice and fire

[Quorra]

Women being raped, victimized sexually, and forced into marital relations are ubiquitous and therefore highly controversial tropes in fantasy fiction. Why? Is there something about that behavior and male-female dynamic that appeals in the same way the other fantasy fetish images do (i.e. iconic swords and embroidered doublets, mysterious magical sorcerers, ancient runes, legendary heroes....etc.)?

How do you think it is handled in the description of this world? That is, just in The World of Ice and Fire, not particularly in any one book!

Do you think it is used thoughtlessly, as a ubiquitous trope? Do you think the female characters are handled callously or with sympathy? Do think it is unnecessary or necessary in this world?

GRRM created the world, so he didn't HAVE to have women being casually raped and beaten and otherwise misused in polygamous relations by small folk and powerful men alike. It's a totally fictional world so it could include barbaric, violent behavior and yet women could be just as violent as men and it would still seem realistic in the sense that it would follow its own rules.

What do you think? It seems that there is very little mention in the governing laws or the faiths in the world of ice and fire that strictly condemns this behavior. Maybe I'm wrong.

Do you think the women of this world are often victimized? Moreso than the men?

Would you want to be a woman in Westeros during any of the times described in the history? Essos?

[Alester Florent]

It's an interesting, but fraught, question. On the one hand, one can see in the open portrayal of such things a kind of social commentary: while it's true that GRRM didn't have to build the world this way, it does reflect something which is still very real and something which arguably not enough fiction writers, or indeed people, acknowledge. Rape and sexual exploitation might not be an overt feature of everyday life in the west any longer (although a lot of it still happens behind closed doors) but it still absolutely happens in a similar manner to that in Westeros in parts of the world and is still a part of warfare and conflict in a way that's often forgotten.

So inasmuch as it's part of the "ASoIaF philosophy" not to shy away from the grubbire, more realistic parts of such societies it deserves its place and I think does have value as part of the "message".

But it's also easy to overdo it. It can become gratuitous, or be presented in a titillating rather than shocking manner, or it can be done to the extent that the reader normalises and internalises it. It can be badly presented, both in terms of the victims' reactions and in a sufficiently non-autonomous means of escape from it, such that women remain reliant on men even when they're not being abused by them and that's presented as ok. Or, and/or, it can originate from a place of such misogyny that the whole thing is just fundamentally distasteful: that's where the game FATAL - despite claiming to be an accurate mediaeval fantasy setting/system - went so badly wrong.

It certainly doesn't help that GRRM's depictions of even normal, consensual sex are often so jawdroppingly horrible. I agree with him in principle about the "people are shocked by sex but not by violence" thing but his phrasing and choice of vocabulary have me reaching for the brain bleach even if I have no particular problem with the sex itself. Combine that tendency and the general caution that it's wise to employ around GRRM's sex scenes with the rape factor and the result isn't particularly pretty.

There are times when it's dropped casually into another description - the surrender of Storm's End to Orys Baratheon in AWoIaF caught my attention particularly - and the casual misogyny on display by the characters gives one pause, and it's hard not to ask questions about the authori's intent.

But I don't think GRRM is on the wrong side of the line, even if that line is very blurred. I think he could do it better than he does, and that at times it does perhaps verge on the overdone, but I think it genuinely is done with the best of intentions and at least in the hope of helping to make things "better", somehow.

I wouldn't want to be a woman in Westeros (or Essos), though. I think if you're reasonably lucky and shrewd your life might well be fine, but it's not a risk I'd want to take. Then again I wouldn't want to be a man in Westeros (or Essos) either.

[joluoto2]

I think he needed to make a patriarchal society for the characters he was making, and looked at our own World, both past and present for examples. And the real world is cruel, and he wanted Westeros to be a dark mirror in a way.

[HouseHarrison]

It's handled like it would be in an actual medieval society. Planetos is fantasy but also a mirror of reality.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Agreed; most societies in history have been patriarchal (especially the ones Westeros is based off of).

And I wouldn't mind being a female Dragonlord during Valyria's height. And maybe it wouldn't be as bad being a woman in Hyrkoon, since it seems like they at least make up the majority (or at the very least a good chunk) of the Hyrkooni warrior class unlike most other places in the world; but we don't really know enough about the Hyrkooni to know for sure.

[Quorra]

one can see in the open portrayal of such things a kind of social commentary: while it's true that GRRM didn't have to build the world this way, it does reflect something which is still very real ...

So inasmuch as it's part of the "ASoIaF philosophy" not to shy away from the grubbire, more realistic parts of such societies it deserves its place and I think does have value as part of the "message".

I think you make a good and valid point that it may serve a purpose, to reflect what real people experience in the real world, and it does not just set an atmosphere.

Since brutality is something we really feel, experience, hate, and fear, it's naturally something we can relate to in fantasy fiction and lends a realistic and relatable sense of tragedy, pain, and horror to the otherwise unlikely events described.

Perhaps the misogyny of certain cultures in this world is an intentional attempt to sway the readers' opinions about those cultures. He could be trying to lessen our empathy for them so that he can do them harm - plotwise - and the reader would see it as a form of justice. He could suggest that they are more backward than other, more civilized cultures, so that readers either don't become so invested in them or find their other -superstitious or confounding - behaviors to make more sense.

But you know, everyone is mentioning that this type of thing happens in real life - especially in patriarchal societies - and in depicting it in fantasy he is REFLECTING real life in a way.

I wonder sometimes if the potential "normalization" of things like this in this genre (things like this being: rape, women being dependent on men, women ending up being victimized by the nature of their sexual relations with men) is potentially contributing to the perceived normalization of it in our real lives, or if it actually serves another purpose outside of the potential commentary on real life discussed above.

When the world and laws in a piece of fiction are entirely and unquestionably FANTASY, would you agree that certain elements have a different function than they would in more realistic fiction?

Just as childhood fairy tales are exaggerated metaphors for children's anxieties, desires, and fears (about hating their parents, about being lost and alone, about being hurt and taken away, about feeling powerless and then gaining power over others) maybe adult fantasy fairy tales need to express our anxieties and fears about sex in an explicit way.

I wondered if rape was a necessary element of fantasy, and even a desired element, not in a simply sexually titillating way - but in the safety of the fantasy genre it's a way to indulge in that fear of rape? In the same way that horror movies work to depict fear.

But I suppose only the individual knows what he or she is getting out of brutal sexual behaviors in the genre.

I am struggling to decide within myself whether:

1. It contributes to a value-judgement spectrum for certain female characters - which I hate the thought of because it's so unfair and so simple and I know it is directly transferrable (or reflective of) a value judgement spectrum on real people!

Or

2. it's just another indulgent expression of my real-life fears of rape and victimization based on sexual relations but expressed here in the far-flung language that fits in with sword-play, magic, dragons, etc.

But then again, DOES it fit in? Because all those other things are far-flung, while rape is not!

I know I have rambled! I am still figuring out what I think about this and how I feel.

[SeanF]

If anything, GRRM pulls his punches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-32413502

If he were to include something like this in his series, I doubt if he'd have got it published. If he did get it published, I imagine he would be widely condemned, Yet, this is something taking place today in a prosperous, stable, country, governed by the rule of law.

He's writing about a medieval society, whose moral values are breaking down under the stress of civil war. I agree with his view that it would be dishonest to avoid rape and sexual violence in depicting such a society.

[Quorra]

I totally understand and appreciate the stress an author would feel in writing in this genre that there'd be this expectation that every little thing has to mean something, represent something other than itself, and serve a purpose. So I don't mean to criticize GRRM in any way. I also think that there is a certain transparency in this series in how on-genre it is. I mean, isn't it?! When I first started reading aGoT (and I am still not finished reading aCoK - I've never seen even one second of the TV show) I would laugh at how fetishy it was. I'm not familiar with a lot of fantasy fiction so I'm not aware of how common it is but the minute I picked it up I felt like I knew this world already. It's just missing a few creatures of course - halflings, orcs...you know. But I'm sure those are legends of old or something.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Lordy.

[GoldHandTheGood]

Rape and sexual violence, like many of the other brutal and horrific elements of what we see in ASOIAF, hold a terrible and much despised place in human history. That should not be celebrated, but neither should it be ignored, imo. Seeing as Grrm appears to take a great deal of influence from real human history, which I personally feel adds to the world in terms of depth and realism, he is naturally going to approach this with a realistic look at how sexual violence was a common part of warfare in the middle ages, and the horrifically casual way in which it was treated by society at similar periods in human history.

As for the fantasy world washing away the need for realism; with that logic, why not create and write about any such form of utopia? One simple reason appears to be the case; as horrid as our world is, and has been in the past, it is what it is, and writers want to examine and reflect that, not necessarily to normalize of trivilialize these crimes, but to show how horrible human nature can truly be, not be dishonest or shy away in order to feel better about it. At no stage while reading this series have I not felt disturbed by all manners of violence within this series, which is as it should be; violence of this manner is meant to be disturbing. However, if one wants a book or fantasy world that opts for a different, more utopic approach to human history, it is perfectly valid. Different strokes for different folks.

As for whether Grrm or any other writer overdoes the sexual violence to the point where it may be getting portrayed inappropriately? Well, like many things, this often tells us more about the reader than the author. What one person finds 'too much' or too 'gratuitous' is too subjective to properly measure, especially in such a complex series as this. George could have the best of intentions, but he may still put off a great many readers. Ultimately I respect his freedom to approach it as he sees fit; the same way I respect people's right to criticize his portrayal of sexual violence and choose to read other fictional works. Can rape be poorly handled? It surely can, like anything, but no matter how careful you are, you will undoubtedly upset someone. If somebody finds it titillating or misinterprets the writer's intentions, well sadly I don't think there's really a solution there; humankind is made up of many different types of people, and depending on a person's values, upbringing, education, experiences, they could interpret a writer's portrayal of such a nasty side of humanity in a thousand different ways, all potentially wrong. I often find people try too hard to blame the creator, or writer, when in reality, it's far more complex than that.

As for the writer's intentions, well, again, there is no real answer here. I personally don't feel Grrm portrays sexual violence with bad intentions, but this is all again to subjective, and again, personally not my concern. If I don't like the way a book is written, I simply won't read it. I won't despair too much over the integrity of the writer's intentions, as such a thing would be pointless.

I personally feel ASOIAF deals with this topic quite well, in that it is suitably and realistically disturbing, and that it properly reflects the horror of real human history and sexual violence. But that's just my opinion. :dunno:

[ummester]

If anything, GRRM pulls his punches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-32413502

If he were to include something like this in his series, I doubt if he'd have got it published. If he did get it published, I imagine he would be widely condemned, Yet, this is something taking place today in a prosperous, stable, country, governed by the rule of law.

He's writing about a medieval society, whose moral values are breaking down under the stress of civil war. I agree with his view that it would be dishonest to avoid rape and sexual violence in depicting such a society.

I agree with this comment. I feel GRRM has toned the level of sociopathic behaviour, violence and sexual aggression (like rape) down for the series, to make it palatable to as wide an audience as possible. The type of world he has created, with the type of events occurring in it, would not realistically be populated by people that think and act like many of his characters do.

[SeanF]

I agree with this comment. I feel GRRM has toned the level of sociopathic behaviour, violence and sexual aggression (like rape) down for the series, to make it palatable to as wide an audience as possible. The type of world he has created, with the type of events occurring in it, would not realistically be populated by people that think and act like many of his characters do.

I think there's a limit to what most readers can tolerate. Child rape is obviously widespread in Martin's world, as it is in ours. But, depicting the rape of a baby would just be seen as completely gross.

[ummester]

I think there's a limit to what most readers can tolerate. Child rape is obviously widespread in Martin's world, as it is in ours. But, depicting the rape of a baby would just be seen as completely gross.

Of course, very little goes there. I was once employed in an environment where I had to witness evidence of the worst of humanity, such as that kind of thing and I know that it is not an easy thing to stomach.

What I am suggesting, however, is that if humans are capable of such atrocity now, in our relatively civilized age, without the presence of things like dragons and ice zombies, or the threat of endless winters to fear, imagine what humans would really be like in the world GRRM has created if was genuinely striving for a darkly realistic look at the human heart in conflict with itself?