Heresy 165

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 165, and the latest round in our challenging look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy is not a particular theory but a free-flowing and above all friendly series of discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the script has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, far less a return of the king scenario for the conclusion of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and 1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have over the years. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

And, topically, remember the forum rules on not discussing the show outside of the sub-forum provided elsewhere on the site. Traditionally we’ve been a bit laid back about this, restricting discussion only to those matters of unequivocal relevance to Heresy, such as the Craster’s sons business. Don’t abuse this unofficial license and we may still be able to slip under the radar. Try turning this into a general discussion of the show and the wrath of the Mods will descend, so let’s try to keep it business as usual

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Black Crow]

I mean like greenseers and wargs (the western magics) have always had the same powers as they do right now. They never lost any of their abilities over the years. The practitioners of eastern magics on the other hand, lost lots of their abilities, and are only now being able to use spells that they used to be able to do. They still had magic, but they weren't as strong as they used to be.

The issue I think is that common magic, not just warging and greenseeing but the shape-shifting practised by the Faceless Men and who knows what else has always been around. What's changing is that great magic is now becoming possible. As to the lack of imitators of Thoros all that probably means is one of two things; either it was another one-off bit of magic required at that point in time purely for the sake of the plot, or magic, being an unquantifiable business without rules [in GRRM's world at least], or; its return is spotty, a bit of magic here, a bit of magic there gradually increasing in power, frequency and coverage rather than as a steady regulated tide.

[Voice]

The issue I think is that common magic, not just warging and greenseeing but the shape-shifting practised by the Faceless Men and who knows what else has always been around. What's changing is that great magic is now becoming possible. As to the lack of imitators of Thoros all that probably means is one of two things; either it was another one-off bit of magic required at that point in time purely for the sake of the plot, or magic, being an unquantifiable business without rules [in GRRM's world at least], or; its return is spotty, a bit of magic here, a bit of magic there gradually increasing in power, frequency and coverage rather than as a steady regulated tide.

Good points.

I mean like greenseers and wargs (the western magics) have always had the same powers as they do right now. They never lost any of their abilities over the years. The practitioners of eastern magics on the other hand, lost lots of their abilities, and are only now being able to use spells that they used to be able to do. They still had magic, but they weren't as strong as they used to be.

We don't know what BR, or the cotf, were able to do before Bran reached them. The weirnet may have just come back online for all we know. And apparently cotf can throw fireballs now [emoji12]

[wolfmaid7]

Good points.

We don't know what BR, or the cotf, were able to do before Bran reached them. The weirnet may have just come back online for all we know. And apparently cotf can throw fireballs now [emoji12]

Spying for one,contacting people in dreams for another.The 3ec was still mind fracking people's sick dreams itself.And the COTF were still singing their songs,not to mention we have a 700ft bit o' proof of magic still erect.The spells after 8,000 yrs were still holding.

[wolfmaid7]

The issue I think is that common magic, not just warging and greenseeing but the shape-shifting practised by the Faceless Men and who knows what else has always been around. What's changing is that great magic is now becoming possible. As to the lack of imitators of Thoros all that probably means is one of two things; either it was another one-off bit of magic required at that point in time purely for the sake of the plot, or magic, being an unquantifiable business without rules [in GRRM's world at least], or; its return is spotty, a bit of magic here, a bit of magic there gradually increasing in power, frequency and coverage rather than as a steady regulated tide.

To me BC "common" and "great" magic are labels to futher complicate things that need not be so complicated.We have examples of magic in various degrees of complication happening all over the world in the last let say 300 yrs.Skinchanging,shape-shifting,Aeromancing,fire mages,Woods witches,gods wives etc have to cease or waned.The only difference now is that certain factions have begun to stir and everyone is being drawn to Westeros.From faceless men to the Red Lot,Skinchangers,Cold Lot,Victor Frankenstien type dudes(Qyburn).Its like a magical Mardi Gras.

Back to Thoros,i would have to say its for the sake of plot and that hasn't come to fruition yet.

[Voice]

Spying for one,contacting people in dreams for another.The 3ec was still mind fracking people's sick dreams itself.And the COTF were still singing their songs,not to mention we have a 700ft bit o' proof of magic still erect.The spells after 8,000 yrs were still holding.

Sure I made no claims as to the 3ec's ability to mind frack, nor the ability of the singers to sing, nor implied any absence of the Wall. I am only saying we don't know their powers weren't recently increased as well.

I'm reminded of Qhorin's words:

"If any man in the Night's Watch can make it through the Frostfangs alone and afoot, it is you, brother. You can go over mountains that a horse must go around. Make for the Fist. Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

The old powers are waking... not just "eastern" powers... but "old" powers. If Mel and the wacky pyromancers are feeling a sudden jolt, I think it highly likely this resurgence of power has increased the powers of BR and the cotf as well.

The trees have eyes again... they always had faces of course... but Qhorin is implying more than that. They are "seeing" in ways they didn't before.

[Rhaegarslance]

Sure I made no claims as to the 3ec's ability to mind frack, nor the ability of the singers to sing, nor implied any absence of the Wall. I am only saying we don't know their powers weren't recently increased as well.

I'm reminded of Qhorin's words:

"If any man in the Night's Watch can make it through the Frostfangs alone and afoot, it is you, brother. You can go over mountains that a horse must go around. Make for the Fist. Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

The old powers are waking... not just "eastern" powers... but "old" powers. If Mel and the wacky pyromancers are feeling a sudden jolt, I think it highly likely this resurgence of power has increased the powers of BR and the cotf as well.

The trees have eyes again... they always had faces of course... but Qhorin is implying more than that. They are "seeing" in ways they didn't before.

But Qhorin isn't right. Bloodraven tells us that he's been watching since at least Ned's birth, which was 37 years ago.

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

And the giants and wargs always existed as evidenced by Mag the Mighty being of a line of giants, and Varamyr learning to warg from Haggon, who learned from someone else. And the greenseers have existed on the Isle of the Faces since the Pact was signed. These guys have always been here and always have had the power that they do. They're not doing anything new suddenly.

The only ones who have re-awakened are the Others and their ability to raise wights

[wolfmaid7]

Sure I made no claims as to the 3ec's ability to mind frack, nor the ability of the singers to sing, nor implied any absence of the Wall. I am only saying we don't know their powers weren't recently increased as well.

I'm reminded of Qhorin's words:

"If any man in the Night's Watch can make it through the Frostfangs alone and afoot, it is you, brother. You can go over mountains that a horse must go around. Make for the Fist. Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

The old powers are waking... not just "eastern" powers... but "old" powers. If Mel and the wacky pyromancers are feeling a sudden jolt, I think it highly likely this resurgence of power has increased the powers of BR and the cotf as well.

The trees have eyes again... they always had faces of course... but Qhorin is implying more than that. They are "seeing" in ways they didn't before.

Voice, there is no way unless Qhorin has intimate knowledge that he knows this.How will he know in what ways they are seeing?Bloodraven always had eyes in the realms of men.The realms of men just wasn't aware until wait for it...........Someone sensitive got contacted.Had Jon not been with them,they would have never known.

And who was his contact,not some random person but Bran himself.They themselves as i said before "are" the Old powers.

[Matthew.]

The old powers are waking... not just "eastern" powers... but "old" powers. If Mel and the wacky pyromancers are feeling a sudden jolt, I think it highly likely this resurgence of power has increased the powers of BR and the cotf as well.

The trees have eyes again... they always had faces of course... but Qhorin is implying more than that. They are "seeing" in ways they didn't before.

I agree, we're meant to see magic everywhere, including north of the Wall, as reawakening, or strengthening. Qhorin's statement is a great example.

GRRM himself confirms this in a roundabout way in certain SSMs, where he says the amount of magic stuff happening will, by his design, increase with each book, which is suggestive of magic reawakening after a long dormancy.

As to the question of "did the dragons bring magic, or did magic bring the dragons," I lean toward the idea that sacrificing Rhaego as well as Drogo's pyre were the truly significant events. I don't believe that GRRM's world, even with all of its prophecies and visions, is one where our characters are powerless before prophecy; magic (or at least, fire magic) is waxing as a direct consequence of choices Dany made, and whatever it was before the start of aGoT that lead to the Others stirring.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree, we're meant to see magic everywhere, including north of the Wall, as reawakening, or strengthening. Qhorin's statement is a great example.

GRRM himself confirms this in a roundabout way in certain SSMs, where he says the amount of magic stuff happening will, by his design, increase with each book, which is suggestive of magic reawakening after a long dormancy.

As to the question of "did the dragons bring magic, or did magic bring the dragons," I lean toward the idea that sacrificing Rhaego as well as Drogo's pyre were the truly significant events. I don't believe that GRRM's world, even with all of its prophecies and visions, is one where our characters are powerless before prophecy; magic (or at least, fire magic) is waxing as a direct consequence of choices Dany made, and whatever it was before the start of aGoT that lead to the Others stirring.

I disagree GRRM meant for characters to be ignorant,but we knew the trees always had eyes because BR told us.He's been watching the Starks for a long time and watching period a long time.Its just that no human knew about it because they thought the COTF were dead.So to them it seems this is just starting,its been happening.

Everyone in Westeros thinks the COTF are dead or they never existed."WE" know otherwise because of Bran.

[Voice]

Exactly Matthew.

Wolfmaid and Rhaegar:

I am not suggesting Qhorin is an expert on all things magical. But he is familiar with the foes the Night's Watch has faced in his lifetime. Up until that night, in the memory of all living men, the Night's Watch had only faced wildlings. And I am not suggesting that BR, the 3EC, the cotf, nor the Others have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. My feelings on the Ancient Others lying in wait this whole time are well known. Rather, what I am suggesting is that the old powers, as Qhorin suggested, are indeed waking. They didn't die, but they were less active. Far less active.

Now, one can barely scale a hill without running into skinchangers, giants, and far worse. One can barely have a conversation without having your sworn brothers talk to trees while seeing through the eyes of direwolves.

This ain't Uncle Ben's version of the Night's Watch when all you had to do to survive the night was camp out at Craster's Keep. The time for chasing wildlings is over. Now the black brothers are being hunted by white walkers, and rising from the dead as wights. That didn't used to happen.

The old powers are waking. The trees have eyes again.

[Matthew.]

I disagree GRRM meant for characters to be ignorant,but we knew the trees always had eyes because BR told us.He's been watching the Starks for a long time and watching period a long time.Its just that no human knew about it because they thought the COTF were dead.So to them it seems this is just starting,its been happening.

Everyone in Westeros thinks the COTF are dead or they never existed."WE" know otherwise because of Bran.

Sure, but was anyone watching before Bloodraven? Bran was reached out to almost the moment his gifts began awakening, but BR was nearly 80 by the time he became a GS, and there's only a little more than 60 total CotF in BR's cave. All of this, as well as the "last greenseer" moniker are suggestive of the idea that magic's return is still relatively recent (I would consider BR's disappearance to be recent history).

The fact that magic had faded to the stuff of legend south of the Wall, and that the Stark's gifts all reawakened at the same time would imply that the coming of the direwolves was a significant event, in much the same way Dany's pyre to the east was a turning point for magic.

To say magic was dead may not necessarily be the correct term, but I think it is possible to intentionally diminish magic, otherwise why introduce the concept of the grey sheep? IMHO, if you marginalize or destroy the right bloodlines - Starks, Blackwoods, Targaryens, etc. - and actively discourage ritual sacrifice, you can effectively create a world without magic.

[Melifeather]

But Qhorin isn't right. Bloodraven tells us that he's been watching since at least Ned's birth, which was 37 years ago.

And the giants and wargs always existed as evidenced by Mag the Mighty being of a line of giants, and Varamyr learning to warg from Haggon, who learned from someone else. And the greenseers have existed on the Isle of the Faces since the Pact was signed. These guys have always been here and always have had the power that they do. They're not doing anything new suddenly.

The only ones who have re-awakened are the Others and their ability to raise wights

You are quite right, Rhaegarsiance. Bloodraven has been watching probably since before Ned was born, but I think we can assume magic was always there even if it was very weak. The arrival of direwolves and dragons signaled that magic was growing in strength, and there has been much discussion much in the spirit of which came first the chicken or the egg. Many like Matthew below believe Dany's sacrifice of Rhaego, Mirri and Drogo was necessary to hatch dragon eggs but such a process is magic in itself. Didn't Dany dream or know intuitively what to do? How did this information or intuition come to her? Is there a dragon-side version of Bloodraven? And if Bloodraven or the Children are behind ushering in the dire wolf pups, why pick that specific moment? Having access to the weirwood memories and learning from the past must certainly be the impetus for the timing, and the wisdom for Bloodraven (and ???) to recognize the moment when it arrives. Can Bloodraven see the future? I think he's stated that he's glimpsed possibilities (not exact wording).

I agree, we're meant to see magic everywhere, including north of the Wall, as reawakening, or strengthening. Qhorin's statement is a great example.

GRRM himself confirms this in a roundabout way in certain SSMs, where he says the amount of magic stuff happening will, by his design, increase with each book, which is suggestive of magic reawakening after a long dormancy.

As to the question of "did the dragons bring magic, or did magic bring the dragons," I lean toward the idea that sacrificing Rhaego as well as Drogo's pyre were the truly significant events. I don't believe that GRRM's world, even with all of its prophecies and visions, is one where our characters are powerless before prophecy; magic (or at least, fire magic) is waxing as a direct consequence of choices Dany made, and whatever it was before the start of aGoT that lead to the Others stirring.

[wolfmaid7]

Exactly Matthew.

Wolfmaid and Rhaegar:

I am not suggesting Qhorin is an expert on all things magical. But he is familiar with the foes the Night's Watch has faced in his lifetime. Up until that night, in the memory of all living men, the Night's Watch had only faced wildlings. And I am not suggesting that BR, the 3EC, the cotf, nor the Others have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. My feelings on the Ancient Others lying in wait this whole time are well known. Rather, what I am suggesting is that the old powers, as Qhorin suggested, are indeed waking. They didn't die, but they were less active. Far less active.

Now, one can barely scale a hill without running into skinchangers, giants, and far worse. One can barely have a conversation without having your sworn brothers talk to trees while seeing through the eyes of direwolves.

This ain't Uncle Ben's version of the Night's Watch when all you had to do to survive the night was camp out at Craster's Keep. The time for chasing wildlings is over. Now the black brothers are being hunted by white walkers, and rising from the dead as wights. That didn't used to happen.

The old powers are waking. The trees have eyes again.

Why didn't you say that off the bat. :cool4:As i said before,they have begun to stir...make themselves known.But again,i think there is a problem in that label.

Qhorin's statement is telling....

Tell Mormont what Jon saw.........AND HOW

.......THAT THE TREES HAVE EYES AGAIN.

I'm shouting because i wan't us to focus on who these powers are.They are not without but within.

Qhorin needed Mormont to know the physical threats yes,but it was important that Mormont know "how" Jon saw it.And the kicker that the face and the eyes were Bran's Jon's brother.

The Old powers are their own people...not an external threat its from within

[Voice]

To say magic was dead may not necessarily be the correct term, but I think it is possible to intentionally diminish magic, otherwise why introduce the concept of the grey sheep? IMHO, if you marginalize or destroy the right bloodlines - Starks, Blackwoods, Targaryens, etc. - and actively discourage ritual sacrifice, you can effectively create a world without magic.

Yup. I have no idea how many Blackwoods exist. But there is only 1 living Targaryen (possible hidden targs aside), and 4 living Starks.

Why didn't you say that off the bat. :cool4:As i said before,they have begun to stir...make themselves known.

Hey you're the one that stirred this pot, not me! LOL

So you agree the old powers are waking?

Because that means they were once asleep...

[Melifeather]

quote by Matthew (sorry, weird copy/paste results)

Sure, but was anyone watching before Bloodraven? Bran was reached out to almost the moment his gifts began awakening, but BR was nearly 80 by the time he became a GS, and there's only a little more than 60 total CotF in BR's cave. All of this, as well as the "last greenseer" moniker are suggestive of the idea that magic's return is still relatively recent (I would consider BR's disappearance to be recent history).

The fact that magic had faded to the stuff of legend south of the Wall, and that the Stark's gifts all reawakened at the same time would imply that the coming of the direwolves was a significant event, in much the same way Dany's pyre to the east was a turning point for magic.

To say magic was dead may not necessarily be the correct term, but I think it is possible to intentionally diminish magic, otherwise why introduce the concept of the grey sheep? IMHO, if you marginalize or destroy the right bloodlines - Starks, Blackwoods, Targaryens, etc. - and actively discourage ritual sacrifice, you can effectively create a world without magic.

end quote

I think it's highly suggestive that the cave under High Heart where Beric Dondarrion was staying was an old greenseer "throne". The location west of Harrenhal and south of Oldstones was said to have been destroyed by Erreg during the Andal invasion, but the nearby small folk still avoid the area because they say it's haunted by the Children. Could this be the location of the previous greenseer?

Then there's the weirwood tree at Raventree Hall, which is north of High Heart. The poisoning of that tree hints at an attempt to perhaps kill a greenseer. This poisoning happened after the Andal Invasion, so it's a newer event, but still quite a ways in the past from Bloodraven.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think it's highly suggestive that the cave under High Heart where Beric Dondarrion was staying was an old greenseer "throne". The location west of Harrenhal and south of Oldstones was said to have been destroyed by Erreg during the Andal invasion, but the nearby small folk still avoid the area because they say it's haunted by the Children. Could this be the location of the previous greenseer?

Then there's the weirwood tree at Raventree Hall, which is north of High Heart. The poisoning of that tree hints at an attempt to perhaps kill a greenseer. This poisoning happened after the Andal Invasion, so it's a newer event, but still quite a ways in the past from Bloodraven.

Look who crawled out from under the rock. :cheers:

Just today I was thinking that part of the reason for Leaf's 200 year journey in the realms of men could have been to speak with other cotf. Or at least to see if any were still living. And probably a stop by the Isle of Faces too.

Edit. Also 200 years past one of the Singers Bran/Hodor spies in the "caves o' doom" could have been a little more active and able to speak aloud to the other children.

[Rhaegarslance]

Exactly Matthew.

Wolfmaid and Rhaegar:

I am not suggesting Qhorin is an expert on all things magical. But he is familiar with the foes the Night's Watch has faced in his lifetime. Up until that night, in the memory of all living men, the Night's Watch had only faced wildlings. And I am not suggesting that BR, the 3EC, the cotf, nor the Others have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. My feelings on the Ancient Others lying in wait this whole time are well known. Rather, what I am suggesting is that the old powers, as Qhorin suggested, are indeed waking. They didn't die, but they were less active. Far less active.

Now, one can barely scale a hill without running into skinchangers, giants, and far worse. One can barely have a conversation without having your sworn brothers talk to trees while seeing through the eyes of direwolves.

This ain't Uncle Ben's version of the Night's Watch when all you had to do to survive the night was camp out at Craster's Keep. The time for chasing wildlings is over. Now the black brothers are being hunted by white walkers, and rising from the dead as wights. That didn't used to happen.

The old powers are waking. The trees have eyes again.

None of those shows an increase or being suddenly more active, except with the Others.

The Night's Watch knew about skinchangers. They traded with Haggon, and Varamyr and Borroq are wildling chieftains. Skinchangers were well known, and then we know of plenty of others that the Night's Watch might not have known about (Orell, the girl with the shadowcat, etc). There's not suddenly this huge increase in skinchangers. Just because there were no brothers who could skinchange doesn't mean that they didn't deal with them. We know that they did.

The number of giants is similarly still the same. Just because the Night's Watch didn't deal with them, doesn't mean that they weren't always there. The wildlings certainly had dealings with them, and Mag being of a line of giants means that they've been active for generations. They're only moving south now because they were being hunted by Others. If the Night's Watch had ventured to where they lived they'd have dealt with them too. Not going to where something lives doesn't equal them not existing or being active.

Greenseers similarly aren't suddenly just popping up or being more active. Bran notes cotf greenseers in the weirwoods which indicates that they're very old, but they're not suddenly influencing events far and wide despite having been there for decades. Similarly Bloodraven has been greenseeing since at least 263 (Ned's birth), but likely since 252 (his disappearance). Greenseers aren't a new development.

Then there's the Isle of Faces with the Order of the Green Men. We don't know if they're greenseers yet, but if they are then there's a whole island of them. Regardless though, someone taught Howland something for 2 years while he wintered there from 279-281. So the Green Men were still active as far back as 281.

The only thing new here and suddenly more active is the Others and wights.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Really.

6 kids from the same household as wargs. And direwolves at that. And south of the Wall. And one a greenseer.

The wights themselves are a big jump. And Beric and Stoneheart are something newish crazy.

The alchemists can produce better wildfire.

Magic is on the rise and spreading. That's just the way GRRM wrote the story.

And I bet the main reason Robert Strong is 'alive' is because of the newly renewed magic.