A Stark in Winterfell

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

I have seen a few times here in posts and even in the books, that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Looking at their history, a Stark Lord has ruled (obviously) since Bran the Builder built the Wall and Winterfell.

I have read a few interesting forums about this. The most logical says the The Starks are tied to Winterfell and the Wall and keep the others away by always being in Winterfell. Once they all leave, Winter arrives, and the Others return.

I think it has something to do with the crypts or what is below Winterfell. 8000 years of Kings of Winter are down there, some remembered, some faded to memory. It is my belief that something else is down there, maybe some form of magic? A dragon egg maybe? The Horn of Winter????

Or is it some kind of blood tie, maybe a sacrifice or an execution (like the one Bran sees in his coma dream, which I originally thought was Dany and Barristan)? Either way, bad things are happening now that the Starks are gone.

Now, let the trolling begin.

[Blazfemur]

lol. I theorized it's as if the starks were serving the stipulations of an agreement or contract. There MUST always be a Stark in winterfell, like a blood ward (i.e. how theon was to eddard to maintain peace with balon). whenever eddard said it, he didnt say it in the form of family pride or duty, he was saying it as a reminder, or a warning. a living sacrifice

right now, theyre breeching contract. and the snowstorms apparently are getting more harsh, arent they?

[Scorpion92]

I believe in the crackpot theory that when the Last Hero,Brandon the Builder (yes,I believe they were the same person) found Children of the Forest,they made a pact that as long as there is a descendent of Brandon in Winterfell and on the Wall,then Children of the Forest won't interfere in the realm of men and call back their creations White Walkers.

That will explain how Brandon was able to build the Wall (I don't believe the giants built it,I mean not entirely,it is made of ice,so clearly White Walkers were involved,and the recordings were lost or changed by the Citadel who hate magic).

Nowadays,we see that Boltons are ruling Winterfell and the Wall just stabbed their Lord Commander Jon Snow,who is Stark,which means the pact is broken and the winter is TRULY coming!

And yes,I believe White Walkers and Children of the Forest to be allied factions,who support Starks. Jon will play a crucial role in Winds of Winter.

[Blazfemur]

I believe in the crackpot theory that when the Last Hero,Brandon the Builder (yes,I believe they were the same person) found Children of the Forest,they made a pact that as long as there is a descendent of Brandon in Winterfell and on the Wall,then Children of the Forest won't interfere in the realm of men and call back their creations White Walkers.

That will explain how Brandon was able to build the Wall (I don't believe the giants built it,I mean not entirely,it is made of ice,so clearly White Walkers were involved,and the recordings were lost or changed by the Citadel who hate magic).

Nowadays,we see that Boltons are ruling Winterfell and the Wall just stabbed their Lord Commander Jon Snow,who is Stark,which means the pact is broken and the winter is TRULY coming!

And yes,I believe White Walkers and Children of the Forest to be allied factions,who support Starks. Jon will play a crucial role in Winds of Winter.

ready? are you ready?

what if (and yes i believe lh=btb), is ALSO the nights king

they say brandon the builder, founded house stark. old nan, would often call MANY of the characters in her stories bran. by this, BtB=LH=TNK, the wall most certainly couldve begun by giants and BtB, then when he became TNK, he could have finished it off using cryomancy

the last hero, becomes the night's king. that person is 13th lord commander brandon stark. further, and people that know me can sing it with me, he wields Ice, and ancestral stark blade, that was never actually lost, but exiled with him.

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

I believe in the crackpot theory that when the Last Hero,Brandon the Builder (yes,I believe they were the same person) found Children of the Forest,they made a pact that as long as there is a descendent of Brandon in Winterfell and on the Wall,then Children of the Forest won't interfere in the realm of men and call back their creations White Walkers.

That will explain how Brandon was able to build the Wall (I don't believe the giants built it,I mean not entirely,it is made of ice,so clearly White Walkers were involved,and the recordings were lost or changed by the Citadel who hate magic).

Nowadays,we see that Boltons are ruling Winterfell and the Wall just stabbed their Lord Commander Jon Snow,who is Stark,which means the pact is broken and the winter is TRULY coming!

And yes,I believe White Walkers and Children of the Forest to be allied factions,who support Starks. Jon will play a crucial role in Winds of Winter.

I thought about that as well, when Bran finds Bloodraven, the WW can not get into that cave. Obviously it is using the same magic as the wall, since the WW can't get past that either. I believe that the magic at the Wall was put up by the CoTF, and not Bran the Builder. He simply saw to its construction as well as Winterfell's.

As far as the WW being in league with the CotF, I doubt that, seeing as Leaf saved Bran and company from them, who were trying to kill them.

ready? are you ready?

what if (and yes i believe lh=btb), is ALSO the nights king

they say brandon the builder, founded house stark. old nan, would often call MANY of the characters in her stories bran. by this, BtB=LH=TNK, the wall most certainly couldve begun by giants and BtB, then when he became TNK, he could have finished it off using cryomancy

the last hero, becomes the night's king. that person is 13th lord commander brandon stark. further, and people that know me can sing it with me, he wields Ice, and ancestral stark blade, that was never actually lost, but exiled with him.

I like the idea that LH=BTB. But not the Night's King. The Night's King was rumored to be a Stark, and in Bran's coma dream, I think the man he saw executed was the Night's King, like I said above.

[Byfort of Corfe]

I think its a tradition thing, like how there must always be ravens at the Tower of London.

[Scorpion92]

@Blazfemur

I saw that theory too,but to be honest,there's some inconsistencies. How the Night's King can be Brandon the Builder,if we know that tNK was defeated by King Beyond the Wall and King in the North,a brother of tNK. If Brandon was the first Stark and at that time there were no wildlings yet on the other side of the Wall,then it is kind of inconsistent. Plus,13th Lord Commander and Brandon the Builder can't live in the same timeframe,becaus that's too much time between the two.

I believe that Night's King story is GRRM's attempt to show us what is going to happen to Jon Snow. Plus,I believe in crackpot theory that Benjen Stark already joined the Others,that's why no one knows where he is. Benjen and Bran are going to switch Jon Snow on White Walkers' side.

Of course,I might be wrong,but that's the only logical storyline for Jon while he is inside Ghost. There is this spiritual journey he must go through to truly understand the White Walkers,Children of the Forest and their significance for Starks.

And once he gains all this knowledge,it will be turning point for him and the whole Westeros. He is going to resemble all these past Starks of old,harsh,ruthless like winter, but with their own laws and codes of honor.

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

I don't think that is the case. Coldhands helped them against the WW and so did Leaf, so them joining up with them makes no sense. Benjen may have been taken by the Others, and is being held as a hostage in their war. I think his arc will play out in tWoW, and that Jon will find him through Ghost as he travels beyond the Wall. GRRM said we will be going deeper into the North than ever before. This ties into another theory, that a Stark must also be at the Wall. By the Stark at the Wall gone (Benjen) and Winterfell without a Stark (Eddard/Robb/Bran/insert Stark here), the Others already have the upper hand. If it is magic that bounds those two locations, then this seems logical.

[JonisHenryTudor]

@Blazfemur

I saw that theory too,but to be honest,there's some inconsistencies. How the Night's King can be Brandon the Builder,if we know that tNK was defeated by King Beyond the Wall and King in the North,a brother of tNK. If Brandon was the first Stark and at that time there were no wildlings yet on the other side of the Wall,then it is kind of inconsistent. Plus,13th Lord Commander and Brandon the Builder can't live in the same timeframe,becaus that's too much time between the two.

I believe that Night's King story is GRRM's attempt to show us what is going to happen to Jon Snow. Plus,I believe in crackpot theory that Benjen Stark already joined the Others,that's why no one knows where he is. Benjen and Bran are going to switch Jon Snow on White Walkers' side.

Of course,I might be wrong,but that's the only logical storyline for Jon while he is inside Ghost. There is this spiritual journey he must go through to truly understand the White Walkers,Children of the Forest and their significance for Starks.

And once he gains all this knowledge,it will be turning point for him and the whole Westeros. He is going to resemble all these past Starks of old,harsh,ruthless like winter, but with their own laws and codes of honor.

I am not so sure that he is actually in Ghost.

We don't need Ghost to go further north. Bran can take use there no?

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

I am not so sure that he is actually in Ghost.

We don't need Ghost to go further north. Bran can take use there no?

Bran or Jon technically. Jon has warged into Ghost before with Bran's help.

We really don't know what the endgame of BR is though, and why he chose a Stark to begin with.

[Scorpion92]

@JonisHenryTudor

I would recommend reading this topic to understand what I am implying. It is consistent with what I was talking about.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99729-jon-snows-fate-ghost-ice-cell/

@ThePromiseThatWasPrince

There was Q/A with GRRM about Children of the Forest and the Others. You can see in the second question here:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

[JonisHenryTudor]

@JonisHenryTudor

I would recommend reading this topic to understand what I am implying. It is consistent with what I was talking about.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99729-jon-snows-fate-ghost-ice-cell/

@ThePromiseThatWasPrince

There was Q/A with GRRM about Children of the Forest and the Others. You can see in the second question here:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

I have and I don't necessarily buy the warging idea. Primarily because there is no real evidence that he succumbed to his wounds, and I read the final lines much differently.

[Jak Scaletongue]

@Blazfemur

I saw that theory too,but to be honest,there's some inconsistencies. How the Night's King can be Brandon the Builder,if we know that tNK was defeated by King Beyond the Wall and King in the North,a brother of tNK. If Brandon was the first Stark and at that time there were no wildlings yet on the other side of the Wall,then it is kind of inconsistent. Plus,13th Lord Commander and Brandon the Builder can't live in the same timeframe,becaus that's too much time between the two.

The timing issues between #1 and #13 Lord Commander can and will depend on how quickly they were getting killed. There's only, what, a couple of months, between 997th and 999th LC? If a Lord Commander is dying every year or less, then it won't take too long to get to 13. I've always felt that #1 LC was still fighting the Long Night/Others/etc. I've always got the impression that the Wall was built and the Night's Watch created *during* the Long Night, not the end, so #1 LC would have still been fighting Others and White Walkers. If he died, and LC#2 died a little while later, and on and on, and the next thing you know you're already on #13 LC and maybe still fighting the Long Night/Others/etc. Maybe #13 is the one who finally ended it by doing all those sacrifices and whatnot that Old Nan's stories said. I'm rather open to the idea of BtB=tNK=LH, but I'm not stuck on it either - you'll notice all the "maybe's" and "if's" in my response! It's a neat idea, and while some parallels may play out in the current timeline, I don't think it's going to be a huge deal storywise if it happens or doesn't happen. It might be a shock to the reader to find out that these 3 characters are one person instead of three, and it may be a huge shock to the Stark kids to learn that BtB=LH=tNK, but plot wise I doubt it will be a significant impact. It's what they learn *from* the stories that matter, not what they learn *about* the stories.

Though, tbh, it was so far in the past, I doubt we'll get a straight answer. GRRM seems to really like the "realistic" history in his world! And realistically, we'd never know here on earth either! We can't even decide if Jesus was real! That was only about 2000 years ago, not 10,000 or whatever!

ETA: Nothing, never mind, my brain stopped working.

[Hodor knows]

Benjen(and Old Nan?) is hiding in the walls of Winterfell preparing the crypts for the coming holy war.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The timing issues between #1 and #13 Lord Commander can and will depend on how quickly they were getting killed. There's only, what, a couple of months, between 997th and 999th LC? If a Lord Commander is dying every year or less, then it won't take too long to get to 13. I've always felt that #1 LC was still fighting the Long Night/Others/etc. I've always got the impression that the Wall was built and the Night's Watch created *during* the Long Night, not the end, so #1 LC would have still been fighting Others and White Walkers. If he died, and LC#2 died a little while later, and on and on, and the next thing you know you're already on #13 LC and maybe still fighting the Long Night/Others/etc. Maybe #13 is the one who finally ended it by doing all those sacrifices and whatnot that Old Nan's stories said. I'm rather open to the idea of BtB=tNK=LH, but I'm not stuck on it either - you'll notice all the "maybe's" and "if's" in my response! It's a neat idea, and while some parallels may play out in the current timeline, I don't think it's going to be a huge deal storywise if it happens or doesn't happen. It might be a shock to the reader to find out that these 3 characters are one person instead of three, and it may be a huge shock to the Stark kids to learn that BtB=LH=tNK, but plot wise I doubt it will be a significant impact. It's what they learn *from* the stories that matter, not what they learn *about* the stories.

Though, tbh, it was so far in the past, I doubt we'll get a straight answer. GRRM seems to really like the "realistic" history in his world! And realistically, we'd never know here on earth either! We can't even decide if Jesus was real! That was only about 2000 years ago, not 10,000 or whatever!

ETA: Nothing, never mind, my brain stopped working.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall

"The Wall was reputedly created over 8,000 years prior to the present setting by Brandon the Builder after the Long Night to defend the realms of man from the wildlings and Others."

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

I think the "There Must Always Be A Stark in Winterfell" thing id really just a family pride, "these are our lands" deal and not a mystical thing, I'd accept being wrong about that though.

[Blazfemur]

I think the "There Must Always Be A Stark in Winterfell" thing id really just a family pride, "these are our lands" deal and not a mystical thing, I'd accept being wrong about that though.

but is it, "Bran, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell," or is it, "Bran, there MUST always be a Stark in Winterfell."

if, i were to be correct for just a moment, I'd say it's a First Men thing. Like how the wildlings give up their children, and a peace is maintained with Others (apparently). A Stark being there, is their living sacrifice to maintain a peace. I couldnt answer any logistics because quite frankly, there isnt enough information as of yet (at least i havent discovered any)

but you could also be correct, just plain, boring family pride and duty. then again, i thought that was the tully words ;) :P

[The Santa of House Claus]

I am starting to believe that there is something more to that saying then it just being an empty saying, but as to what ties a Stark and Winterfell have to the Long Winter and return of the Others, I am not sure. The Others first appeared while Ned was still Lord of Winterfell. I had thought that maybe the fall of the Starks would weaken the magic of the Wall, but Mel says her magic is stronger at the Wall, of course her magic could still be stronger while the magic of the Wall is weakening.

The Last Hero being the 13th Lord Commander does not really make sense. The Last Hero ended the Long Night somehow, then the Wall was built. The 13th Lord Commander would have come some time later, maybe 65 years if you say the LC averaged a 5 year rule. Now maybe the Wall started going up before the Last Hero struck the peace/ended the war, but I still think there would be to much of a time gap between the 2.

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

but is it, "Bran, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell," or is it, "Bran, there MUST always be a Stark in Winterfell."

if, i were to be correct for just a moment, I'd say it's a First Men thing. Like how the wildlings give up their children, and a peace is maintained with Others (apparently). A Stark being there, is their living sacrifice to maintain a peace. I couldnt answer any logistics because quite frankly, there isnt enough information as of yet (at least i havent discovered any)

but you could also be correct, just plain, boring family pride and duty. then again, i thought that was the tully words ;) :P

Tully words but everybody's thing.

[LmL]

It's interesting that during the hellacious snowstorm near Winterfell, the Wall is warmer than usual, weeping at the same time Stannis is stuck in the snowstorm. I think that's a tip off that the snowstorm is magical, and tied to Winterfell.