Did Theon slay one of his own bastards?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Kinslaying has been made a big deal in the story though, it does not have to apply to Theon. Stannis killed Renly, Tyrion killed Tywin(though that may not apply) Walder told Catlyn to kill his grandson, Umber will not fight Umber, Victarion won't kill Euron, Balon wouldn't kill Euron. Plenty of element shave been added to the story because of the kinslaying thing.

[DireWolfSpirit]

And interestingly we see from this part of

"Lucifer means Lightbrngr's" quote-

Starks boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know. That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some millers sons . Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the millers wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again . But there was no use telling Rowan any of that. She would never believe his denials, any more than he believed hers. There is blood on my hands, but not the blood of brothers, he said wearily. And Ive been punished.

Not enough. Rowan turned her back on him.

Theon seems to be in subconscious denial.

He dare not face the horror of the truth.

He has to

rationalize his denial. This is classic tragic literature.

I really believe Theon not only killed his own son,

he did it in an act that he believed was going to please his father.

How fucked up is that👀?

[Mithras]

Theon is the equivalent of Oedipus in ASOIAF and his unintended kinslaying is a major part of it.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

I'm of the belief as well that the youngest child was Theon's bastard by his affair with the miller's wife. I am not sure about the other since there is not a sure calculation of his age. If we had confirmation on what these two boys look like - hair color, eyes, build, skin tone - then it would be much easier to decipher. It would be pretty ironic as Theon was initially trying to justify why he should not be labelled Kinslayer due to his lack of blood relation to the Starks.

Theon probably has other children in the North from his other dalliances. They could even be potential claimants to the Seastone Throne in case the Greyjoys should need male heirs to continue their dynasty. I am sixty-nine percent sure that the girl Sam saw with the baby was the same girl Theon regularly slept with during his journey to Pyke from Seagard. Her child is probably Theon's.

[Mithras]

I'm of the belief as well that the youngest child was Theon's bastard by his affair with the miller's wife. I am not sure about the other since there is not a sure calculation of his age. If we had confirmation on what these two boys look like - hair color, eyes, build, skin tone - then it would be much easier to decipher. It would be pretty ironic as Theon was initially trying to justify why he should not be labelled Kinslayer due to his lack of blood relation to the Starks.

Theon probably has other children in the North from his other dalliances. They could even be potential claimants to the Seastone Throne in case the Greyjoys should need male heirs to continue their dynasty. I am sixty-nine percent sure that the girl Sam saw with the baby was the same girl Theon regularly slept with during his journey to Pyke from Seagard. Her child is probably Theon's.

I am ninety-six percent sure of that :)

Out of no apparent reason, Sam thinks about Theon in that chapter. Coincidence?

George likes to do this name-dropping on occassions.

[Aemond's Eye]

The word "kinslayer" appears 18 times in ADWD, so it's probably important.

And yes, besides the hooded man, Rowan, one of the washerwomen / spearwives calls him a kinslayer as well, meaning it is definitely NOT a coincidence. When George draws this much attention to something, there is something going on there.

How would Rowan have a clue about the miller's boys though? I took her exchange with Theon to be about the Starks; it depends on what tone you read the "...aye, we know," though.

[Mithras]

How would Rowan have a clue about the miller's boys though? I took her exchange with Theon to be about the Starks; it depends on what tone you read the "...aye, we know," though.

It is the Hooded Man who first calls Theon a kinslayer. Rowan might have learned it from him. After all, they spent more than two months at Winterfell and when they jumped from the castle wall, Mors was there (at the right place and right time) to collect them. This can only be possible if they somehow communicated with Mors and the Hooded Man is the most likely person to make that communication.

[Aemond's Eye]

It is the Hooded Man who first calls Theon a kinslayer. Rowan might have learned it from him. After all, they spent more than two months at Winterfell and when they jumped from the castle wall, Mors was there (at the right place and right time) to collect them. This can only be possible if they somehow communicated with Mors and the Hooded Man is the most likely person to make that communication.

It still relies on THM knowing about the miller's wife and Theon. Personally, I don't think that's what they're referring to; I think they are referfing to the Starks.

If either boy was Theon's son, I doubt anyone like Rowan knows. It's something Theon might know or suspect, and perhaps Ramsay. ("Reek" was there when the miller's wife was killed; she may have tried to save her sons with that information).

[TheMaester]

Then what was the point of mentioning Theon banged the miller's wife back in the day and Ygritte mentioning that the gods abhor even the unintended kinslaying just in the next chapter or so?

To show that he wasn't just mindlessly killing he certainly felt some wrong for his actions. He knew the mother of the children. And it remained in his mind for some time. I don't see it going past that.

[Sullen]

Then what was the point of mentioning Theon banged the miller's wife back in the day and Ygritte mentioning that the gods abhor even the unintended kinslaying just in the next chapter or so?

Theon having a relationship with the miller's wife is there to show how far he has gone, he's willing to have a woman he had a fling with and both of her children executed just to save his own ass. The way I see it, there's nothing more to it.

Ygritte mentioning kinslaying the next chapter is coincidence.

Have to disagree. Kinslaying is a huge deal - how can you miss that? They make such a big deal out of it, across all the books. Plus, almost everything George does is intentional. This is way too weird of a thing to say to be inconsequential, and the way they talked about it for a minute really drew attention to the idea.

Since we know he slept with the Miller's wife, how exactly is it unlikely? It's totally likely, and would fit quite well thematically.

Narratively speaking, it is extremely unlikely. The miller's wife is too inconsequential to be the mother of his children. She is only first mentioned the chapter she gets killed, and then she pretty much goes away from Theon's mind for the rest of the series. Something as big as that needs more build-up, Theon simply saying "Yeah, we fucked" and then revealing four books later that her youngest child was his is simply too pointless.

The word "kinslayer" appears 18 times in ADWD, so it's probably important.

And yes, besides the hooded man, Rowan, one of the washerwomen / spearwives calls him a kinslayer as well, meaning it is definitely NOT a coincidence. When George draws this much attention to something, there is something going on there.

Occam's Razor, they're obviously referring to the Starks.

“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.” simply means they know what his excuse concerning Bran and Rickon are, not that they are agreeing to it.

[Han Snow]

Occam's Razor, they're obviously referring to the Starks.

They may actually refer to the Stark boys, BUT WE the readers should go "OH F*$%&!", When the realization hits us that HE is a kinslayer. I took Theon as a father of one of those boys as a fact from the first reading of the books. It's just that obvious, and tragic and poignant for Theon as a character.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^If its obvious why do you keep ignoring all the points against it. No 1 in this entire thread has explained how anyone would know the millers boys/boy was Theons. It takes wild speculation to come to that conclusion, and no speculation at all to say they aren't.

[LmL]

Actually there has been a very simple mechanism proposed - Theon is an arrogant ass who would be talking about his "conquests" around Winterfell. Any number of locals would know that Theon is an arrogant prick who thinks he's gods gift to woman. Much of his arc is about this idea. So a lot of people would likely know about Theon banging the Miller's wife. Whoever the hooded man is, he's someone who is clearly invested in the Starks, and is almost certainly a northman. Word travels quick among the common folk. The locals would figure out soon that the Miller's wife and her children were murdered. Several from Winterfell went with Theon as far as the cottage itself, and the were sent back. They surely told others where they went. Many survived the shitfest at Winterfell with Ramsay and the Ironborn, and word of those events would also spread quickly. It's not a stretch at all for any number of people to be aware of these facts and make the necessary connections.

It's far more of a stretch to dismiss something as "coincidence" which has our attention drawn to it multiple times, and which fits so well with his themes and arc. As Mithras said, there's an Odeipus thing going on.

When George draws attention to something, smart people pay attention. Dismissing things as coincidence is quite perilous in ASOAF, and it kind of like proving a negative: you can't do it. Anything could be coincidence. Calling something coincidence is always baseless - can never been proven.

Kinslaying is a blood crime. Bran and Rickon weren't even step brothers or foster brothers. Theon was a HOSTAGE. Everyone knew that. There is no way his perceived murder of Bran and Rickon fits the description we are given of Kinslaying. There is no example of a murder of a non-blood relation who is a family friend which has been counted as a kinslaying murder. It doesn't fit. Theon is called a kinslayer twice in short succession, with long musings after each. If you think that's a coincidence... Then I submit that you aren't paying close enough attention to this series.

[jobmartell]

Another theory that they are his, no proof besides Theon mentioning he banged out the miller's wife. Very possible tho.

[denny717]

I'm not sure how people can say it's obvious one way or another. The fact is grrm left us high and dry without a deffinative answer or way to find out. But if a kin slayer is cursed, then it would explain theons incredibly bad luck from this moment of the series and on.

[The Marquis de Leech]

No.

- Theon is much too young to be the father of the elder child.

- At the time of the younger child's conception, Theon is more likely to have been chasing serving girls.

- The children have Bran and Rickon's colouring - they don't look like Theon.

- The Miller was presumably having sex with his wife on a much more regular basis than Theon.

- There is no in-text differentiation between the elder child (who isn't Theon's) and the younger.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And Theon isn't Oedipus. Oedipus' downfall was precisely that he killed his father and married his mother. Theon's downfall has been altogether different reasons.

[Mithras]

^If its obvious why do you keep ignoring all the points against it. No 1 in this entire thread has explained how anyone would know the millers boys/boy was Theons. It takes wild speculation to come to that conclusion, and no speculation at all to say they aren't.

It depends on the identity of the Hooded Man and the survivors of the Battle of Winterfell or the survivors of the residents of Winterfell.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Many creative versions of the Oedipus myth have been used

as literary themes . It often involves these tragic cases of not recognizing ones

own family and mistakenly taking a father, mother, sister, brother as lover.

Or similarly killing one of these imediate family members. Or both killing one (mother, father, brother,

sister, daughter, son). And then becoming lover to ( a father, mother, brother, sister, daughter, or son).

One can hardly imagine the horror of breaking such taboos,

the tragedy of mistakenly having this happen. It's what makes it so powerful

a theme.

Also I have the impression there was some underlying

sexual tension with Theon and Asha when they first were reunited. We could surmise it could be due to

Theon not recognizing Asha after being seperated for 9 years.

Maybe it was show only, not sure,

but that groping horse ride (between Asha and Theon) on the way to meet Balon,

came from somewhere. It's a homage to the Oedipus theme most definately.

OEDIPUS

In the most well-known version of the myth of what happened after Oedipus was born to King Laius and Queen Jocasta, Laius wished to thwart a prophecy. Thus, he fastened the infant's feet together with a large pin and left him to die on a mountainside. The baby was found on Kithairon by shepherds and raised by King Polybus and Queen Merope in the city of Corinth. Oedipus learned from the oracle at Delphi of the prophecy, but believing he was fated to murder Polybus and marry Merope, he left Corinth. Heading to Thebes, Oedipus met an older man in a chariot coming the other way on a narrow road. The two quarreled over who should give way, which resulted in Oedipus killing the stranger and continuing on to Thebes. He found that the king of the city (Laius) had been recently killed and that the city was at the mercy of the Sphinx. Oedipus answered the monster's riddle correctly, defeating it and winning the throne of the dead king and the hand in marriage of the king's widow, his mother, Jocasta.

Oedipus and Jocasta had two sons (Eteocles and Polynices) and two daughters (Antigone and Ismene). In his search to determine who killed Laius (and thus end a plague on Thebes), Oedipus discovered it was he who had killed the late king (his father). Jocasta, upon realizing that she had married her own son and Laius's murderer, hanged herself. Oedipus then seized two pins from her dress and blinded himself with them. Oedipus was driven into exile, accompanied by Antigone and Ismene. After years of wandering, he arrived in Athens, where he found refuge in a grove of trees called Colonus. By this time, warring factions in Thebes wished him to return to that city, believing that his body would bring it luck. However, Oedipus died at Colonus, and the presence of his grave there was said to bring good fortune to Athens.

The legend of Oedipus has been retold in many versions, and was used by Sigmund Freud to name and give mythic precedent to the Oedipus complex.

[The Marquis de Leech]

You are stretching things beyond breaking point.

Theon has an interest in Asha until he finds out who she is, yes. The scene is one of character development: it gives us an insight into the respective personalities of Theon and his sister.

But here's the thing: the scene could be cut without affecting the heart of Theon's story at all. Theon's story is one of trying to find identity, and trying to be accepted. His tragedy is that he just wants to be loved and admired; he does terrible things in order to earn the trust of his father, and tries to hold Winterfell to get Northern approval. Things spiral beyond his control, a la Macbeth, until you get acts like child murder.

There is nothing to do with Oedipus here at all, and zero basis for thinking the younger child is Theon's.