Did Theon slay one of his own bastards?

[Minsc]

. Things spiral beyond his control, a la Macbeth, until you get acts like child murder.

The show even connects them with the dialogue between Luwin and Theon:

Maester Luwin: I've known you many years, Theon Greyjoy. You're not the man you're pretending to be.

[he puts a comforting hand on Theon's shoulder]

Maester Luwin: Not yet.

Theon Greyjoy: [in despair] You may be right. But I've gone too far to pretend to be anything else.

Which is similar (at least in my mind) to Macbeth's quote of:

I am in blood/Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more,/Returning were as tedious as go o'er. (Act 3, Scene 4)

[LmL]

You are stretching things beyond breaking point.

Theon has an interest in Asha until he finds out who she is, yes. The scene is one of character development: it gives us an insight into the respective personalities of Theon and his sister.

But here's the thing: the scene could be cut without affecting the heart of Theon's story at all. Theon's story is one of trying to find identity, and trying to be accepted. His tragedy is that he just wants to be loved and admired; he does terrible things in order to earn the trust of his father, and tries to hold Winterfell to get Northern approval. Things spiral beyond his control, a la Macbeth, until you get acts like child murder.

There is nothing to do with Oedipus here at all, and zero basis for thinking the younger child is Theon's.

Where do you even get off saying things like "there is no basis" when two different people call him a bloody kinslayer? That's the freaking basis. Two people call him a kinslayer, and he just happens to have fucked the mother of the two children he killed. It's the ODEIPUS PATTERN, generally speaking, if one of those kids was his - he kills them not knowing they were his blood. Trying to fuck his sister without knowing it was his sister reinforces this idea - it's Odeipus again, and likely a hint to the reader from George. That's the kind of thing he does, much like some of the more subtle Mithras and Corn King clues around Jon Snow - they are reader only clues referencing external mythology. Dany wants to wear "starlight and sea foam" when Daarrio is coming to see her - that's an Aphrodite reference (Aphrodite means "foam born.")

Theon's arc is about more than just wanting to be loved, I would say. He relationship with women and sex is a pretty major component in basically everything he does. That's why Ramsay gelds him - it's a complete neutering of Theon's identity. Thus, the idea of him possibly having murdered one of his own children makes 100% perfect sense thematically.

And nobody on this thread is saying it definitely happened, only that it is possible. I will never understand the coincidence police people who run in to threads just to tell everyone nothing means anything, and in totally dogmatic fashion. You can't prove a negative, but whatever, be certain. The rest of us are going to try to keep putting things together and solving the mysteries that George has set out for us.

[John Suburbs]

So let me get this straight: It is implausible for a woman to get pregnant after sleeping with a man (or a boy), as long as she is not central to the plot and her child serves no recognizable purpose to the narrative?

I think you guys are grossly misunderstanding the literary underpinnings of Martin. Along with the idea of not letting the reader get too comfortable thinking that a major character would never be killed, there is the corollary that things will happen (or not happen) because it is natural for them to, not because it fits into the story or serves some narrative purpose. So to argue that something is unlikely simply because it doesn't make sense in the narrative right now is silly.

There are all kinds of elements in the story that, so far at least, have nothing to do with anything. Why is there a race of short, hairy people way up in the frozen sea? What purpose do they serve to Jon or Dany or anything? Why is there an assassins guild that say I'm Sorry every time it kills someone when the narrative already has one that can change faces? Why is there a place called Fair Isle off the coast of the Westerlands? Why include a third companion to the visit to Maggy the Frog if she is just going to run off and never play a role in the story again?

All of these things may become important in the future, but maybe not.

[LmL]

^^^ Yes, the coincidence police. It's a strange view to take while reading ASOAIF, the fantasy series with more hidden secrets than any that has ever been written, ever. The lack of curiosity to even poke at some of these mysteries frankly befuddles me. And then, to make it worse... "Everyone stop! It's too much speculation! Everyone stop talking about that!"

*chuckles*

[bemused]

Having discussed this on other threads,I've skimmed here , so excuse any repeats..

That the younger miller's boy could be Theon's is entirely plausible, but if so, I don't think Theon knows , or even considers it. I doubt the miller's wife was a very important dalliance, since he never names her, and only thinks of her as the miller's wife, or the woman. In the absence of descriptions or DNA tests, we may never know.. As I've said frequently before ,people who are repulsed by his act (the apparent killing of B&R) would not be careful to be precise in what they name him , and we have the differences between what "kin" means to people north and south of the wall complicating the matter, what with Rowan calling him kinslayer.

I see no signs that the HM, Rowan or Mors could have known the truth of the miller's boys' parentage and are almost certainly referring to the Stark boys. ( Even though some of them must know B&R survived. Theon was pleased to say he'd killed them, and they probably think he would have ,if he'd caught them.)

"Coincidentally", as with the miller's wife, Theon never calls the captain of the Myraham's daughter by name either, though he must have known it. I, too, believe Sam sees her and her baby in Oldtown...and in her case,(in the absence of DNA tests) we can be as sure as it's possible to be that a baby of hers would be Theon's .

She was a virgin when Theon took her. Her father was "outraged" and she was sure her father would hit her and call her names if she remained on the ship. I can't imagine he would allow any of the sailors have their way with her, afterwards (he hadn't before Theon), and another nobleman who could cow him is unlikely to have come along.

(By contrast, the miller's wife was likely to have been having sex with at least the miller, at the same time as sleeping with Theon.)

Of course we also have Theon saying the captain's daughter would likely be pregnant with his bastard and that she and her father should consider it an honour .. (That's our Theon for you.) ;)

Still, I don't think GRRM's use of "kinslayer" is accidental. I'm sure he expects us to consider the implications, as we have been.

Perhaps he wants to have Theon consider the possibility that he could literally be a kinslayer if/when the capatin's daughter and her baby come to light ...if one, why not the other, sort of thing.

Perhaps he wants the baby to figure into Asha's hopes for a kingsmoot and her plans for the Stony Shore.

Personally, I'd find it satisfying if the poor captain's daughter and her baby actually do wind up being honoured.

[Mithras]

Personally, I'd find it satisfying if the poor captains daughter and her baby actually do wind up being honoured.

Theon treated her like a complete asshole. Her heartbreaking was so emphasized and Theon was so ignorant that I think George has a plan for that and Theon will go seek her to ask forgiveness.

[bemused]

Theon treated her like a complete asshole. Her heartbreaking was so emphasized and Theon was so ignorant that I think George has a plan for that and Theon will go seek her to ask forgiveness.

It is to be hoped..

I meant to also make the point, above, that even if the miller's youngest boy was Theon's, and if we are going to be so precise.. Theon didn't think of killing the miller's boys, and didn't do the deed himself. He merely went along with it. Mind you, I don't think that exonerates him, because he could have stopped it. But for those who want to be really picky... and in spite of any future guilt he might feel, I don't think he can be called a kinslayer in the most literal sense.

[LmL]

I tend to think that if he gave the order to kill them, he's responsible... to whomever keeps track of this stuff. I suppose we should ask Bloodraven what the technicalities are.

[Wavey Sauce]

Yea I think both farm boys were his and the hooded man is someone from that area who knows that

[bemused]

Yea I think both farm boys were his and the hooded man is someone from that area who knows that

To be the father of the older boy (about Bran's age) Theon would have had to be a very young father (12 or 13).

I know it's not impossible, but even if he was capable, how kinky do you suppose the miller's wife was?... It's unlikely that he could have coerced her, he wasn't the son of her lord. .. and even less likely that he could have swept her off her feet, at that age.

It's much more likely that he managed to charm her when he was a bit older, and had gained some experience.. had lain with his first conquest in the godswood (and probably a few others) ..and was now 16 or 17, which would fit for a son of Rickon's age.

Now, who would you suggest knew about it ?

We don't see Theon being close to a bunch of young guys... he's close to Robb, but Robb is embarrassed by his boasting about girls.. and most of the young men of his age and standing who might have been close enough to brag to are dead. The miller and his wife didn't live in WF, so she may not have had a confidante in the castle or winter town... If she had other lovers, she's unlikely to have told them about Theon... And if she did have a confidante, or did confess to another lover, all the men left in WF after Robb went south have been killed, and all the women hauled off to the Dreadfort ..

On top of all that, I think GRRM would be unlikely to introduce a character out of nowhere (or suddenly bring one back) without laying some groundwork for their knowing...

I tend to think that if he gave the order to kill them, he's responsible... to whomever keeps track of this stuff. I suppose we should ask Bloodraven what the technicalities are.

Yes, I think he's culpable in the boys' deaths, but I've never been one who thinks that "kinslayer" has to be precisely accurate ...

And since you mention Bloodraven, I think he and Bran just might know the truth of the matter, since as a northerner ,if the miller's wife told her secret worries to anyone , it might well be to the old gods, before a heart tree.

I think the hooded man is Benjen (for many unrelated reasons). If so, he had to have help from BR/CoTF to get back to WF. ... So of all the candidates for HM, I think he possibly might know if Theon was the father... He would also know that B&R are alive.. but I think that, in his anger at what Theon's actions have caused, and his disgust and contempt for the fact that Theon would claim to have killed B&R, allowing two other boys to be killed in their place.. he might call Theon "kinslayer" in scorn, anyway.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is a chance that Jon got Ygritte pregnant during the time they banged like bunnies? Yes.

Would that serve NOW a purpose to Jon's story? Not really, except making miserable for the sake of being miserable a la "oh, noes... I could have been a daddy!".

This is not real life. Things that happens and are said in books do because the author wants to make a point. Every single thing the characters say serves a purpose.

So, there is a chance that Theon got the miller's wife pregnant? Yes. That doesn't mean he did.

Also, even if such child was his, what purpose would it serve?

I think there is more chances that, the Captain's daughter returns with a child of him.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

It's likely the person would have to be from WF to suspect the millers boys are actually Theons bastards

If the HM is actually referring to the millers boys when he calls Theon a kinslayer then the HM, in my opinion, has the to have been at WF during the time Theon growing up/sleeping with millers wife.

It's strange that anyone would actually call Theon a kinslayer. It makes no sense at all.

Theon is from House Greyjoy.

Bran and Rickon are from House Stark.

No matter how much time they spent together at WF, they will never be kin. Ned and Robert spent a lot time together fostered with Jon Arryn, but I seriously doubt anyone would consider them kin.

All in all, I'm inclined to think that millers sons are Theons.

Who cares if I'm wrong? It's all just a game. ;)

[LmL]

It's likely the person would have to be from WF to suspect the millers boys are actually Theons bastards

If the HM is actually referring to the millers boys when he calls Theon a kinslayer then the HM, in my opinion, has the to have been at WF during the time Theon growing up/sleeping with millers wife.

It's strange that anyone would actually call Theon a kinslayer. It makes no sense at all.

Theon is from House Greyjoy.

Bran and Rickon are from House Stark.

No matter how much time they spent together at WF, they will never be kin. Ned and Robert spent a lot time together fostered with Jon Arryn, but I seriously doubt anyone would consider them kin.

All in all, I'm inclined to think that millers sons are Theons.

Who cares if I'm wrong? It's all just a game. ;)

I agree wit this. I just don't think Theon could keep his mouth shut about his conquests. He would definitely to have tell someone, probably more than one person, in order to feed his ego. His own delusional self confidence would assure him that he can get away with telling a couple of people without it getting around, the way kids do in junior high. Hence, I think its more likely than not than many people at least heard the rumor that Theon sometimes sleeps with the Miller's wife. That's all it would take for people to suspect one of the kids is his. All the locals would know who Theon is, he is a weird kind of quasi-celebrity. The kraken captive boy who thinks he's royal prince galloping about his kingdom. Anyway, if he repeatedly went over there to mess around, I'm sure was observed at least once, in addition to whatever blabbing he did.

I saw a good analysis of the Hooded Man, and I thought that Robett Glover was the most logical candidate. You have to do a lot of digging to find his movements, but he's a bit of a secret agent type who's done some difficult missions in enemy territory and seems to have been in the area. I don't remember the info though so that's all I can say. Point being, he's been around Winterfell a lot in recent years as the Glovers live close by.

But how did the spear wife know? The HM I suppose... another spearwife question: why were they willing to die to rescue 'Arya Stark' anyway? Why would they care that much?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Where do you even get off saying things like "there is no basis" when two different people call him a bloody kinslayer?

Easy. They're referring to the family he grew up with, and which most people think he was responsible for murdering (i.e. Bran and Rickon). The majority of people in the North don't know that he killed the Miller's Boys, and even if they did, they have absolutely no way of knowing that Theon was the potential father.

That's the freaking basis. Two people call him a kinslayer, and he just happens to have fucked the mother of the two children he killed. It's the ODEIPUS PATTERN, generally speaking, if one of those kids was his - he kills them not knowing they were his blood.

It's Oedipus if he finds out. Here he has no way of finding out. So you avoid the very basis of the Oedipus Pattern.

And the very suggestion ignores the evidence against these being his children. Leaving aside the age issue, and the fact that neither child looks like him, you know who else fucked the Miller's wife, and fucked her far more times than Theon? The Miller.

Trying to fuck his sister without knowing it was his sister reinforces this idea - it's Odeipus again, and likely a hint to the reader from George. That's the kind of thing he does, much like some of the more subtle Mithras and Corn King clues around Jon Snow - they are reader only clues referencing external mythology. Dany wants to wear "starlight and sea foam" when Daarrio is coming to see her - that's an Aphrodite reference (Aphrodite means "foam born.")

You know who else fuck their sister without knowing? Sigmund from Völsunga saga, and Kullervo from Kalevala. Neither kill family members. Ditto Túrin from Tolkien's Silmarillion.

There is no reason for Theon to be an Oedipus character, especially given that he has his own tragedy quite independent of the Miller's children.

Theon's arc is about more than just wanting to be loved, I would say. He relationship with women and sex is a pretty major component in basically everything he does. That's why Ramsay gelds him - it's a complete neutering of Theon's identity. Thus, the idea of him possibly having murdered one of his own children makes 100% perfect sense thematically.

It makes zero sense thematically. Theon's attitude to women is a reflection of his desire to achieve social status: he has sex because he thinks that's what Real Men do, and he thinks it will earn him coveted status points. Everything he does is about building an identity for himself, which he then loses. His tragedy is what he does in order to (unsuccessfully) preserve this identity.

I don't see what a contrived "discovery" of killing his children would add to this.

And nobody on this thread is saying it definitely happened, only that it is possible. I will never understand the coincidence police people who run in to threads just to tell everyone nothing means anything, and in totally dogmatic fashion. You can't prove a negative, but whatever, be certain. The rest of us are going to try to keep putting things together and solving the mysteries that George has set out for us.

Try being on this forum for nigh on a decade and seeing this Theon and the Miller's children theory be recycled over and over again. You soon realise that it's really just another stone to throw at the character. Often from the same people who think Theon was "betraying" the Starks.

[LmL]

Easy. They're referring to the family he grew up with, and which most people think he was responsible for murdering (i.e. Bran and Rickon). The majority of people in the North don't know that he killed the Miller's Boys, and even if they did, they have absolutely no way of knowing that Theon was the potential father.

It's Oedipus if he finds out. Here he has no way of finding out. So you avoid the very basis of the Oedipus Pattern.

And the very suggestion ignores the evidence against these being his children. Leaving aside the age issue, and the fact that neither child looks like him, you know who else fucked the Miller's wife, and fucked her far more times than Theon? The Miller.

You know who else fuck their sister without knowing? Sigmund from Völsunga saga, and Kullervo from Kalevala. Neither kill family members. Ditto Túrin from Tolkien's Silmarillion.

There is no reason for Theon to be an Oedipus character, especially given that he has his own tragedy quite independent of the Miller's children.

It makes zero sense thematically. Theon's attitude to women is a reflection of his desire to achieve social status: he has sex because he thinks that's what Real Men do, and he thinks it will earn him coveted status points. Everything he does is about building an identity for himself, which he then loses. His tragedy is what he does in order to (unsuccessfully) preserve this identity.

I don't see what a contrived "discovery" of killing his children would add to this.

Try being on this forum for nigh on a decade and seeing this Theon and the Miller's children theory be recycled over and over again. You soon realise that it's really just another stone to throw at the character. Often from the same people who think Theon was "betraying" the Starks.

You are ignoring the argument that people have made several times on this thread. YES, PEOPLE HAVE A WAY OF KNOWING that Theon slept with her, and thus could be the father. It's called "Theon is an arrogant ass who probably would have had to tell someone" (why am I even repeating this since you clearly aren't listening) for one thing, and for another, he slept with her multiple times, which means someone could have and probably would have observed his coming and going. Once this rumor got out even once, it would spread around town. No one would know for sure except those Theon told directly, but the rumor would probably be around. So stop saying "there is no way for people to know." Yes, there are two POSSIBLE ways.

Actually a third way, which was mentioned above also, is that the Miller's wife may have told Ramsay when he was killing her to try to stop him. Ramsay may know and may manage to tell Theon himself before he gets his long awaited death (both of them, for that matter).

What you said was that there was "no basis," which is clearly wrong. You make great arguments about why they may not be his kid, that's great, but the fact that two people in the story called him a kinslayer, and the fact that he slept with the mother of two children he killed means there is at a basis for suspecting he was the father.

Do we even know what the miller's boys looked like in relation to Theon vs. the Miller?

As for the themes, I've definitely seen Martin draw from more than one myth or archetype to create a character. Given the whole episode with his sister, one of the Miller's kids being his son would make two Odeipus-like occurrences for him. They don't have to be exactly the same as Odeipus for Martin to be using the idea, imo. I mean, what's the whole deal with Odeipus? He doesn't know who his family is. Isn't that part of Theon's identity?

As for being on the boards for 10 years, I hear you. There are a lot of dumb theories out there, I know. But why even read those if you are sick of them? In fairness, you continue to insist there is no basis for this and no way for that to happen, even though people on this thread are suggesting very viable ways for both to occur. It kind of feels like you aren't listening or reading, or are just ignoring people. I understand if you disagree - I'm far from convinced either one is his - but insisting there is absolutely no basis for disagreeing with your position when there is at least some circumstantial evidence doesn't seem realistic.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Theon is 20 at the time of ACOK. The children are of an age with Bran and Rickon, so 8 and 4. This means he would have needed to be 11-12 at the time the elder child was conceived, and 15-16 for the latter.

Now, we know that Theon's first was Barth the Brewer's Wife. So even for the younger child to be his, you need multiple married women to be having affairs with him at 15-16.

Combine this with the fact that he'd need to go some distance beyond Winterfell to get to the Mill: even if Ned trusted him to ride away by himself at that age, there were serving girls and tavern wenches much closer to home.

Combine that with the children not looking like him (they have Bran and Rickon's colouring - i.e. they look vaguely Tullyish).

Combine that with the frequency of the sex: Theon only had her "a time or two", which suggests the fling was very brief indeed. The Miller was by contrast married to her.

Combine with the fact that Theon's guilt, recriminations, etc, about the children has been about both children equally. That suggests either were both his, or neither were his (the younger child thus far has not been treated any differently from the elder). And given that Theon would need to be having multiple affairs with married women at 11-12, I know which one is more likely.

[The Marquis de Leech]

You are ignoring the argument that people have made several times on this thread. YES, PEOPLE HAVE A WAY OF KNOWING that Theon slept with her, and thus could be the father.

Aforementioned people can probably put two and two together about the age issue. If people "knew" the Miller's children were Theon's, it would be highly convenient that the Miller, for one, clearly didn't know. The entire local population was somehow able to avoid sniggering to his face.

Aforementioned people also don't know that he killed them. Everyone thinks he killed Bran and Rickon, just as everyone knows that the Starks were his "adopted family". The accusations of kinslaying thus tie-in with his identity crisis, where he is both Stark and Greyjoy, and neither.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Also, seeing as the Miller's wife begged Theon to spare her children, it mysteriously never occurred to her to tell him "don't kill the children - they're yours!"

[Julia H.]

You are ignoring the argument that people have made several times on this thread. YES, PEOPLE HAVE A WAY OF KNOWING that Theon slept with her, and thus could be the father. It's called "Theon is an arrogant ass who probably would have had to tell someone" (why am I even repeating this since you clearly aren't listening) for one thing, and for another, he slept with her multiple times, which means someone could have and probably would have observed his coming and going. Once this rumor got out even once, it would spread around town. No one would know for sure except those Theon told directly, but the rumor would probably be around. So stop saying "there is no way for people to know." Yes, there are two POSSIBLE ways.

We know Theon is not exactly discreet with regard to his affairs with the smallfolk. Once Robb specifically tells him not to discuss them in front of Bran. In addition, the smallfolk will likely gossip about Theon and his affairs with various women. For all we know, even the miller might have suspected the affair and given the woman a severe beating, for example. It does not mean either the miller or the miller's wife could be sure who fathered the child.

As for how old Theon may have been at the time of this particular affair and why the miller's wife would be impressed by such a young boy, well, the miller's wife may not have been more than a few years older than Theon. Peasant girls marry young. Even though Theon was not their lord, he was a finely dressed young aristocrat with a ready smile and an arrogance that could appeal to women of much inferior social status - or at least make resistance less likely. There's a good chance that Theon was more attractive than the miller.

Here's an interesting quote from TWOIAF:

By the age of ten-and-four, Dalton Greyjoy had sailed as far as Old Ghis, fought in a dozen actions, and claimed four salt-wives.

With regard to in-world standards, it does not seem to be a stretch that Theon is old enough to have fathered at least the younger boy.

For me, the significance of the possibility is not how it may impact the story. After all, even if Theon was the father of that child, he may never find it out; in fact, not even the miller's wife may have known it for sure. It is enough if Theon can never know for sure that one of them was not his. Every time he defends his actions by saying he didn't really kill the Stark children, there is this afterthought that killing the miller's sons was just as monstrous.

I think the mere presence of this possibility is a symbol of how complicated Theon's ties are with the North and its people. He may well have blood ties there - if not the son of the miller's wife, then someone else - just as his relationship with the Stark children was not as simple as he is trying to make himself believe, even though they are not actual kinsmen. I believe he is not called a "kinslayer" by mistake. That epithet must have a significance with regard to Theon's arc. Even he acknowledges in the end:

I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children.

And:

And Robb. Robb, who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.

Theon came from the Iron Islands, but he lived in the North, and the North and its people became part of his life. The following quote explains it much better than I ever could:

No man is an island,

Entire of itself,

Every man is a piece of the continent,

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less.

As well as if a promontory were.

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were:

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind,

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee.

The miller's boys (one of whom may have been Theon's own blood) are just further proof that Pyke-born Theon was not an "island" in the North, he was "part of the main". He killed a part of himself, and he knows it.

[Aemond's Eye]

Theon treated her like a complete asshole. Her heartbreaking was so emphasized and Theon was so ignorant that I think George has a plan for that and Theon will go seek her to ask forgiveness.

Personally, I hope not. Letting Asha knoe that he may have a bastard son, thus Balon's line lives on? Fine. But I'll be one of the readers not too amused if Theon isn't executed or sent to The Wall. Yes, Ramsay tortured and broke him, and he still saved Jeyne. Good acts and bad acts don't wash away the other; Theon had civilians killed when he knew it was wrong, and Ramsay torturing him doesn't mean justice has been served for that.