Avengers 2: The SPOILER thread (warning: spoilers NOT in tags)

[The Human Abstract]

Given Whedon's track record with female characters I can understand how frustrated he must be when he's being accused of being sexist.

Whedon has pretty much always been accused of making terrible and/or sexist female characters. After almost every project I can think of, he gets this criticism that he's created female characters who are male fantasies. Or, that he envisions a "strong" women as just a really attractive women with masculine traits. That Whedon can't write women is something he's been lambasted about for decades.

I honestly think the criticism is somewhat correct, myself. I do think his female characters are absurd and deliver absurd one liners, but I think he means no harm by it. That's just the type of woman he's in to. A man basically. In skin tight clothes. And with giant boobs.

Yeah I bet he read a lot of comic books.

[Castel]

Well the Twins did not know Ultrons plan, they thought he was fighting Tony who then deem evil. When he began to download his mind in the Vision body it entered an organic mind. Scarlet Witch can only read organic minds and that is when she saw that he wanted to destroy the world. That was not part of the plan they signed up for.

Except they don't really deal with their huge issue with Stark. \

Given Whedon's track record with female characters I can understand how frustrated he must be when he's being accused of being sexist

That...doesn't make him look better at all...In fact, I'm not sure it makes anyone look better.

[Jon AS]

So, did Whedon write Natasha as "too soft" or as too much of a guy? I don't really see it as either, but the complaints do strike me as essentially mutually exclusive.

The way I see it he simply wrote all team members as people, with strengths, weaknesses and, yes, an emotional side. Steve is still wistful about missing out on a relationship with Peggy, Tony, Thor and Clint have managed to have it all, being both superheroes and in happy relationships, whereas Natasha and Bruce tend to keep people at a distance as they both see themselves as too monstrous, albeit for very different reasons: him because of what he might do in the future, she because of what she has done in the past. The two of them also mirror each other because, while they are at opposite ends of the team's power spectrum, paradoxically of the two of them it's Bruce who questions whether he should be there at all, fearing that he might do more harm than good, while Natasha has complete confidence in her ability to make a valuable contribution to the cause (something even Clint struggles with).

And at the end that's what keeps them apart: when push comes to shove Natasha puts the mission first, forcing Bruce into the fight he's been actively trying to avoid, and in the process probably contributing to his decision to leave and cut all ties at the end. So yeah, she gets to be a bit wistful herself, because not only has she lost a person with whom she had an undeniable emotional connection, but she's also cost the team one of its strongest assets.

[The Wolves]

Whedon has pretty much always been accused of making terrible and/or sexist female characters. After almost every project I can think of, he gets this criticism that he's created female characters who are male fantasies. Or, that he envisions a "strong" women as just a really attractive women with masculine traits. That Whedon can't write women is something he's been lambasted about for decades.

I honestly think the criticism is somewhat correct, myself. I do think his female characters are absurd and deliver absurd one liners, but I think he means no harm by it. That's just the type of woman he's in to. A man basically. In skin tight clothes. And with giant boobs.

Yeah I bet he read a lot of comic books.

I've never heard of Whedon getting this type of criticism about his female characters, nor have I ever noticed it.

[mormont]

I would say this: the criticisms of the Black Widow's story are undoubtedly magnified by the fact that, along with the Scarlet Witch, she is one of only two female characters to have any storyline at all. Maria Hill and Helen Cho barely feature as more than set dressing (same with Hawkeye's wife and daughter). Peggy Carter gets a blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo. Pepper Potts and Jane Foster don't appear, and are basically limited to one shared namecheck. Any other female named characters? I can't think of one.

Meanwhile we have five male leads (counting Quicksilver) plus two effectively-if-not-technically male primary characters (Ultron and Vision), plus War Machine, Fury and Falcon. OK, Falcon is effectively a cameo, but both Fury and War Machine are more present in the story than Hill or Cho. There's also Klaue and Strucker, each of whom probably get more lines than Hill does.

If you limit the number of female characters in this way, you limit the opportunity to provide balance. The female character's plotline will inevitably get closer attention and be seen as representative of the writer's view of women. So that's certainly a valid criticism of the movie, and I think it contributes significantly to the criticism of the BW plotline.

[Jon AS]

If you limit the number of female characters in this way, you limit the opportunity to provide balance. The female character's plotline will inevitably get closer attention and be seen as representative of the writer's view of women. So that's certainly a valid criticism of the movie, and I think it contributes significantly to the criticism of the BW plotline.

That's a good point. Really annoying that Marvel seems so reluctant to introduce female characters.

[Calibandar]

Well the Twins did not know Ultrons plan, they thought he was fighting Tony who then deem evil. When he began to download his mind in the Vision body it entered an organic mind. Scarlet Witch can only read organic minds and that is when she saw that he wanted to destroy the world. That was not part of the plan they signed up for.

Personally I think Ultron should of been more powerful, cap went head to head with him and he was just an after thought for the Hulk. I thought he would of been Vibranium dipped and then the Vision would of shut him down using the mind Gem. The Hulk did more damage to Iron man than Ultron did and that was in Veronica. I thought Spader was great but I thought Ultron was way under powered. It seemed like this movie was suppose to be darker and the Avengers were suppose to take a beating but really they never did.

This was one thing that just disapponted me about Ultron. I thought he would be a higher level villain.

His character was fine, but he lacked oomph.

As for the Twins, it just seems odd to that they would think Ultron was only interested in fighting Stark.

[john]

Whedon is now denying that his leaving twitter was anything to do with an outcry over sexism. Just wanted to get more work done.

The frustrating thing for Whedon, I imagine, must be that he seems genuinely more thoughtful about womens roles in his work than any other mainstream writer I can think of. He gets his harshest criticism over things he apparently puts in to address a perceived problem. Like the noble prostitute in Firefly or the mind controlled sex slaves in Dollhouse.

[Castel]

Whedon is now denying that his leaving twitter was anything to do with an outcry over sexism. Just wanted to get more work done.

The frustrating thing for Whedon, I imagine, must be that he seems genuinely more thoughtful about womens roles in his work than any other mainstream writer I can think of. He gets his harshest criticism over things he apparently puts in to address a perceived problem. Like the noble prostitute in Firefly or the mind controlled sex slaves in Dollhouse.

Didn't he put in the prostitute because FOX forced him to?

[Myrddin]

Bruce and Nat are in an idyllic home of a teammate who has been hiding this perfect family from everyone. They are standing in a child's room when they have the conversation, surrounded by children's things. It's a natural response for Banner to be reminded what he can never have, so he brings it up. BW says, "so what? I can't have it either. It doesn't mean anything."

HE brought it up. Not HER. She wasn't decrying that her chance to be a mother was ripped from her (though she obviously feels that*). She was telling him his fear that they could never have a future is baseless.

This really can't be held up as something to beat Weadon with.

On one hand, people are saying there aren't enough female characters. On the other, people are blasting him for how he handled the ones he has. It's a no win scenario.

*Side note: seeing that the actress was pregnant during filming, she could've been projecting the desire of being a mother onto the character.

[Castel]

On one hand, people are saying there aren't enough female characters. On the other, people are blasting him for how he handled the ones he has. It's a no win scenario.

It's really not. It's just hard. Which is why you should have more female characters.I'm not really seeing how anyone is setting up a no-win situation. There are very clear outs here.

*Side note: seeing that the actress was pregnant during filming, she could've been projecting the desire of being a mother onto the character.

Was the dialogue really that neutral though, that no one can read into it without Scarlett's performance? I'm seriously asking here, I just mark that shit in my head as "emotional beat about difficulty of romance for hero".

EDIT: Don't worry about it. This is what she said:

“You know what my final test was in the Red Room? They sterilized me, said it was one less thing to worry about. You think you’re the only monster on the team?”

Anyways,still the sucky thing about being a director.

[Myrddin]

Anyways,still the sucky thing about being a director.

In isolation, the line looks really bad, agreed. In the context of the scene, I linked the "monster" to her being a trained killer, not a sterile woman.

It wasn't until this thread that I found out people were up in arms about it.

[The BlackBear]

Banner kind of brought up children in the first Avengers too, in the first scene between him and Widow, he rocks a cradle and says 'Well I don't everytime get what I want.'

[Sci-2]

In isolation, the line looks really bad, agreed. In the context of the scene, I linked the "monster" to her being a trained killer, not a sterile woman.

It wasn't until this thread that I found out people were up in arms about it.

Yeah I think the line could've been written better but I didn't read it as her sterility being monstrous. That said, BW being captured, being Hulk's nursemaid, and so on was kinda weird.

It would've played better if there was more of Maria Hill, a new female Avenger, or even a bit of the AoS team (May/Skye/Bobbi/Simmons).

[The BlackBear]

Whedon did say he wanted to get Carol Danvers in there, so that would have evened it slightly.

[Myrddin]

I'm really surprised they couldn't get a pre-Capt Marvel Danvers in the movie in some capacity. Even if on the same exposure as Agent 13 in Winter Soldier. Not much screen time, but enough to leave an impression.

Come to think of it, why not reveal Agent 13's real name as Danvers and let Van Camp become Capt. M?

[RumHam]

Come to think of it, why not reveal Agent 13's real name as Danvers and let Van Camp become Capt. M?

Cause then they couldn't mine the weirdness of the fact that she's Peggy Carter's granddaughter or niece or whatever. Actually I guess they could, assuming Peggy would have taken her husbands name Sharon really shouldn't be Sharon Cater I guess. But with all the fuss over their representation of women (or lack thereof) they probably shouldn't be merging two of their few strong female characters.

[denstorebog]

Whedon explains why he left Twitter. It wasn't the progressives after all.

[polishgenius]

Whedon has pretty much always been accused of making terrible and/or sexist female characters. After almost every project I can think of, he gets this criticism that he's created female characters who are male fantasies. Or, that he envisions a "strong" women as just a really attractive women with masculine traits. That Whedon can't write women is something he's been lambasted about for decades.

I honestly think the criticism is somewhat correct, myself. I do think his female characters are absurd and deliver absurd one liners, but I think he means no harm by it. That's just the type of woman he's in to. A man basically. In skin tight clothes. And with giant boobs.

Yeah I bet he read a lot of comic books.

Yeah this. Whedon's heart is in the right place, he's certainly ahead of many of his peers in terms of including central female characters in his work. But he seems to fall into the fairly common trap where if a woman can kick ass and delivery one-liners that means she must be a 'strong woman' regardless of anything else, and he's very bad for objectifying women (Buffy, Inara and the entire premise of Dollhouse read like teenage fantasies he's held on to and put to screen).

It's not that he can't write good women characters- Kaylee, Zoe and River are excellent imo for example- but I think much of the criticism he gets is warranted.

The criticism of Widow is of a different strain, of course, but it's undeniable that there's an unfortunate conflation of dodgy stereotypes going on in this film (even though I'm sure the 'now who's the monster' line was intended the way most people read it, because she's a killer, I did kind of wince when she said it because the timing of it is really sketchy). Though I do think that being captured because you're doing something that stops your adversary winning isn't quite the 'captured princess' stereotype.

[Weeping Sore]

My problem with Whedon is he's just not a very good director of action. I think both Avengers movies would have been twice as good if he had just written and produced them, leaving the direction to Brad Bird (The Incredibles, M.i. Ghost Protocol)