Avengers 2: The SPOILER thread (warning: spoilers NOT in tags)

[RumHam]

I assume Loki will or already has given Thanos the Tesseract to save his own ass after fucking up in Avengers 1. Can someone explain to me, as the movie isn't out here yet, in what sense was Thanos influencing the events of this movie? Was Ultron also trying to get the mind gem for him?

[ab aeterno]

I assume Loki will or already has given Thanos the Tesseract to save his own ass after fucking up in Avengers 1. Can someone explain to me, as the movie isn't out here yet, in what sense was Thanos influencing the events of this movie? Was Ultron also trying to get the mind gem for him?

The Tesseract is in Asgard, as of Thor The Dark World, and the Mind Gem was in the sceptre that Thanos gave to Loki in Avengers (1). Ultron is completely unconnected to Thanos so far, as far as I know, but he wanted to use the Mind Gem to help him to evolve, I think. As far as I know, or can tell, Thanos has very little to no direct influence in the events of Age of Ultron.

[RumHam]

I know the Tesseract is in Asgard, which Loki is now ruling. So it would be a simple thing for him to get it to Thanos, possibly replacing it with a fake or something. Or just saying "I'm Odin, and I'll do what I want with it."

I didn't think Ultron was a minion of Thanos, but descriptions I've read of the mid-credits scene made it seem like Thanos's "I'll have to do is myself" was a reaction to some recent failure.

Edit: Also, in that mid-credits scene where does Thanos retrieve the Infinity Gauntlet from? Cause it was also in the vaults of Asgard last we saw it.

[ab aeterno]

I know the Tesseract is in Asgard, which Loki is now ruling. So it would be a simple thing for him to get it to Thanos, possibly replacing it with a fake or something. Or just saying "I'm Odin, and I'll do what I want with it."

I didn't think Ultron was a minion of Thanos, but descriptions I've read of the mid-credits scene made it seem like Thanos's "I'll have to do is myself" was a reaction to some recent failure.

Edit: Also, in that mid-credits scene where does Thanos retrieve the Infinity Gauntlet from? Cause it was also in the vaults of Asgard last we saw it.

I don't think Loki has any reason to take it to Thanos now - Loki has what he wants; he's ruling, so there's nothing that Thanos is offering that would benefit him. Add to that the fact that he was basically told that they would torture him horrifically if he didn't get them the Tesseract, and I think Loki is smart enough to know they'd probably kill him anyway. Especially when you consider that he actually lost the infinity stone that Thanos already had.

That is pretty much what Thanos says, but there isn't really any context to that. I think it's probably more in response to the end of Phase 2 and the beginning of Phase 3 than this movie in particular, with Thanos set to emerge as the main player going forward. As for the gauntlet, I'm not sure. All it shows is him putting it on.

[protar]

Just got back from seeing it today. On the whole it was superb, slightly darker than the first Avengers film but still rather bright and shiny at the end of the day. You can see how it sets up the conflict of Civil War. The fight over the cradle between the Avengers was really telling. It wasn't the Hulk going crazy or anyone being mind-controlled, they were actually at each other's throats for the first time.

Despite the large amount of characters and subplots, Whedon mostly juggled them very well. Not perfectly (There were times during the final fight where characters would disappear for large gaps, and Vision especially got shafted I feel.), but everything tied together very neatly. The cameos were just the right amount.

Ultron was the star of the show. His character was more comedic then I was expecting and almost manchildish. Which added a different type of creepy than what I was anticipating. Like he seems genuinely distraught when The Twins leave him, and almost seems to care about Wanda right at the end.

Hawkeye got a bigger role, but to be honest it still wasn't the amazing arc I thought it was going to be from the hype. I didn't really buy that Hawkeye was the glue holding the Avengers together. I guess I was expecting too much, that he was going to be the central Avenger outside of Cap and Ironman. I also thought his family (or at least his wife) would have been killed off. It's what I would have done. It would have really raised the stakes. On that note I had War Machine pegged for death as well.

I'm conflicted on Quicksilver's death. I like that there was a death, don't get me wrong it raised the stakes. But on the one hand I feel it was a waste of a new character. But on the other hand, it was unexpected, it fuels Scarlet Witch's character in future films and it doesn't leave too many new balls up in the air.

[denstorebog]

I guess I was expecting too much, that he was going to be the central Avenger outside of Cap and Ironman. I also thought his family (or at least his wife) would have been killed off. It's what I would have done. It would have really raised the stakes.

Strange as it may sound, I immediately knew that his family was safe. Killing the pregnant mother at home to raise some man-fury isn't Whedon's way of doing things. And when Hawkeye started talking about 'one last mission', I knew he was safe, again because Whedon knows his clichés.

I, too, was wondering where Thanos grabbed the Infinity Gauntlet from. I don't think we've ever seen the Gauntlet change location since Thor 1, so that would imply that Thanos was in Asgard? But more likely, the scene was probably a kind of preview of the situation after Thor 3. I haven't read the Ragnarok comics, but I assume that the Heimdal scenes in AoU were a setup for that storyline, and that Asgard will get pretty screwed over in Thor 3, which would allow the Gauntlet to travel a bit and end in the hands (or on the hand) of Thanos.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I haven't read the Ragnarok comics, but I assume that the Heimdal scenes in AoU were a setup for that storyline, and that Asgard will get pretty screwed over in Thor 3, which would allow the Gauntlet to travel a bit and end on in the hands (or on the hand) of Thanos.

Oh man, get the Walt Simonsen run of Thor. Great stuff. Much of the storyline of the last Thor flick was filched from the Simonsen run.

[Boar Island]

I know the Tesseract is in Asgard, which Loki is now ruling. So it would be a simple thing for him to get it to Thanos, possibly replacing it with a fake or something. Or just saying "I'm Odin, and I'll do what I want with it."

I didn't think Ultron was a minion of Thanos, but descriptions I've read of the mid-credits scene made it seem like Thanos's "I'll have to do is myself" was a reaction to some recent failure.

Edit: Also, in that mid-credits scene where does Thanos retrieve the Infinity Gauntlet from? Cause it was also in the vaults of Asgard last we saw it.

Ultron may have been unconnected to Thanos. The sceptre however was given to Von Strucker, perhaps to fuel his research with powered people (--> Inhumans), which seems to be of interest to Thanos. Strucker being killed and the Mind Stone ending up with his enemies probably is said "recent failure". Possibly, I'm overlooking something here, though.

[The BlackBear]

Was Ultron also trying to get the mind gem for him?

I don't think so. But the AI needed to make Ultron came from the chitauri. I don't think it's totally implausible that Thanos planted it to cause a little chaos as a backup system.

[DaveSumm]

Regarding the earlier post about agents of SHIELD being completely irrelevant: man, I feel sorry for that show. Could one film just throw them a bone, just once? One throw away line from Fury about how he's got some people working on stuff? Instead we get Fury and Hill's secret helicarrier and some references from Cap about this being SHIELD: seriously, a third SHIELD? Coulson gets to toil away at defeating HYDRA, while the Avengers (who don't know about Coulson or have contact with Fury) pile in and take out Strucker? It really feels to me like they hadn't planned the events of Cap 2 when they commissioned AoS, and now they want nothing to do with it. It just isn't compatable with this film, the Avengers could tread all over their missions, and their headquarters basically is SHIELD now. What does Fury say to Coulson about this? Or has he forgotten he set him up as director?

Turned into an AoS rant, anyway, great film, perhaps a little less coherent than the first. Still all running around my head a bit so I might post more thoughts tomorrow.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I liked Thor's look of shocked worry when Cap almost managed to lift the hammer.

I liked how they put Spader's mannerism into the robot, ie the way he opens his mouth, shuts it, then opens it again when doing a big speech.

[The Anti-Targ]

- There was a fairly large fellow came in at the start. Not morbidly obese, but still pretty hefty. He went to sit right down at the front and he broke a chair when he sat down. I don't think I've seen anything as utterly soul destroying in my life. I think he left the theatre instead of going to another seat. Felt really bad for him.

How the hell do you break a chair at the cinema. My brother IS morbidly obese and he's never broken a seat at the cinema ever, and he's not exactly gentle about sitting down. What sort of weal arsed chairs does your cinema have?

OT. I really enjoyed the movie. Not really too much I want to nit pick at, but I would have liked Ultron to have gotten away to go on a galactic adventure. Problem is when Ultron entered the comic book world there was no internet, so he was contained. Now you just can't have homocidal AI's roaming about.

Somehow I think the Avengers movies are always going to have big battle scenes. There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for the Avengers to get together except to do substantial battles. The title of the next movie is kind of spoilerish on that front, it being a two part war and all, they are surely not going to be fighting just Thanos for 2 movies. On that note I can't believe it took me this long to twig that "infinity war" is about the infinity stones.

I thought killing off Quicksilver was perhaps a deal between Disney and Fox. Disney gets to use Quicksilver one time only and they can keep Wanda. X-men gets to keep Quicksilver. But if Quicksilver is being kept on ice for a possible return in the MCU maybe there was no arrangement.

Also, did I miss the bit where Julie Delpy turns up?

[Jon AS]

Coulson gets to toil away at defeating HYDRA, while the Avengers (who don't know about Coulson or have contact with Fury) pile in and take out Strucker?

That's partly the show's fault, though: it did a piss-poor job convincing anybody that Coulson's team was doing much of importance, leave alone anything that lots of other agencies couldn't have tackled. Hell, even other former SHIELD employees didn't think they were doing a good job, and while some decided to take back the good name of SHIELD (such as it was; I always thought the show missed a massive opportunity by not examining how questionable a lot of SHIELD's methods were at all), others got together with their superhero buddies and cleaned up SHIELD's mess. All the while Coulson was busy carving abstract art and worrying about Skye.

It really feels to me like they hadn't planned the events of Cap 2 when they commissioned AoS, and now they want nothing to do with it. It just isn't compatable with this film, the Avengers could tread all over their missions, and their headquarters basically is SHIELD now. What does Fury say to Coulson about this? Or has he forgotten he set him up as director?

The aim for the show really seems to have been no more than milking the Marvel brand on network TV without getting in the way of the real cash cows, with no thought given how it could be used to the benefit of the shared world setting.

Joss Whedon even regrets Coulson's resurrection, and it seems that may have been a big reason to keep the show as far away from the movie as possible.

[The BlackBear]

Also, did I miss the bit where Julie Delpy turns up?

I didn't recognise her at the time, but she was credited as Madame B, the Red Room boss.

[DaveSumm]

Joss Whedon even regrets Coulson's resurrection, and it seems that may have been a big reason to keep the show as far away from the movie as possible.

Jesus, "as far as the movies go, he's dead"? So I should give up any hope that the Avengers (his friends, who all grieved his death) will ever be told that he's alive? It seems pointless, I can't imagine there's anyone who enjoyed Avengers enough to see the second film who won't be aware that there's a series with him in it. How much of a role can AoS realistically play in Civil War with this attitude? Seems to me that a civil war needs numbers to provide a realistic schism, and AoS would be perfect to carry some of the load. If they can't tie that in, AoS really is dead weight, it's just not that great by itself if there's never gonna be significant developments with the larger MCU in the show.

[protar]

I thought killing off Quicksilver was perhaps a deal between Disney and Fox. Disney gets to use Quicksilver one time only and they can keep Wanda. X-men gets to keep Quicksilver. But if Quicksilver is being kept on ice for a possible return in the MCU maybe there was no arrangement.

Well there are already rumours that he isn't dead. Either that Project TAHITI (Which resurrected Coulson) is still active, or that Quicksilver himself has regenerative powers due to his heightened metabolism. I really hope that isn't the case though because that would remove all the emotional impact of the film.

Another small bonus of killing off Quicksilver is that it keeps the incest subtext between him and Wanda subtext. That was definitely hinted at here, and if they'd had loads of films developing the Twins as characters, it would have been harder and harder to logically not address it - which presumably they would be unwilling to in family films.

[The Wolves]

Well there are already rumours that he isn't dead. Either that Project TAHITI (Which resurrected Coulson) is still active, or that Quicksilver himself has regenerative powers due to his heightened metabolism. I really hope that isn't the case though because that would remove all the emotional impact of the film.

Another small bonus of killing off Quicksilver is that it keeps the incest subtext between him and Wanda subtext. That was definitely hinted at here, and if they'd had loads of films developing the Twins as characters, it would have been harder and harder to logically not address it - which presumably they would be unwilling to in family films.

I love Quicksilver I don't want him to be dead but you make great points.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

James Spader definitely stole the show for me. He made Ultron so intriguing.

[Veltigar]

I already gave my thoughts in the watched thread, but I loved it. Best Marvel movie by far. Heck, it might even beat the Dark Knight if it holds up on a rewatch. This movie managed to make Hawkeye relevant, that's an unbelievable achievement right there. With Ultron, Marvel finally has finally introduced a great menacing villain (Loki is a good villain as well, but he's never really threatening). The final showdown, which usually bores me to tears was incredibly well executed here. I just loved it.

[red snow]

I thought it was ok/solid. There was something missing though that prevented me from ever getting too invested in the proceedings. Dare I say the "marvel formula" is getting tired? That or it was simply lacking in the amount of fun the first film and guardians have. In terms of being an action film though, i think cap 2 had it beat. Weirdly Cap is now my favourite avenger which says a lot about chris evans and variosu writer/director efforts after the first film.

Spader was great as Ultron - he could have done with more scenes but they made him very relatable for a piece of CGI. Hawkeye benefitted a lit in this film too and I enjoyed the tease of them painting a target on him throughout.

Things I didn't like/or am bored with are the "previews for the next Thor/Cap/black panther movies" and yet again the hordes of faceless CGI drones for the heroes to battle. Give me one villain or a group of villains for them to fight so I can give a crap.

What I initially (and on the whole) enjoyed was the counter man of steel focus on "making civilians their priority". But at some point that almost became the film's antagonist and I grew tired with being beaten over the head with it. Not to mention the fact that collapsing a multi-story building with people in cars opposite is reckless (even if the building itself is devoid of life". Still, it's nice to make the point.

I do wonder if Whedon had to fight on this one though as it seemed like it had the whedon moments largely diluted out. I think it's a good thing this is his last one.

By no means a bad film at all but it sits below Cap2, Guardians and Avengers1 and sits ever so slighlty above Thor 2 and the other marvel films. It was probably playing things too safe.

oh, and maybe they need to be a bit more restrictive with their trailer content.