Avengers 2: The SPOILER thread (warning: spoilers NOT in tags)

[jarl the climber]

Jesus, "as far as the movies go, he's dead"? So I should give up any hope that the Avengers (his friends, who all grieved his death) will ever be told that he's alive? It seems pointless, I can't imagine there's anyone who enjoyed Avengers enough to see the second film who won't be aware that there's a series with him in it. How much of a role can AoS realistically play in Civil War with this attitude? Seems to me that a civil war needs numbers to provide a realistic schism, and AoS would be perfect to carry some of the load. If they can't tie that in, AoS really is dead weight, it's just not that great by itself if there's never gonna be significant developments with the larger MCU in the show.

Yeah Coulson was OK as a bit character who helped add some continuity to the MU but he doesn't rally have the appeal to carry a show. Now if the show was a runaway hit it might be different but its not, its a niche show that appeals to a limited audience and since its becoming irrelavent to what going on in the movies, you have to wonder how much longer its going to last.

[protar]

I kind of wish they'd had Coulson take Fury's role in the film (or have both of them). The Barton farm scenes would have been the perfect lull in the action to reveal to the Avengers that Coulson was still alive. And then he would bring in the Hellicarrier (with cameos from the SHIELD team) as well.

[DaveSumm]

I kind of wish they'd had Coulson take Fury's role in the film (or have both of them). The Barton farm scenes would have been the perfect lull in the action to reveal to the Avengers that Coulson was still alive. And then he would bring in the Hellicarrier (with cameos from the SHIELD team) as well.

That makes a lot of sense actually, and it's exactly the sort of tie ins we expected to see when the show kicked off. It's sad how massively unlikely your suggestion seems now. He's the guy who should have the helicarrier, he's the guy who should be causing Cap to say 'this is what SHIELD is supposed to be', this is exactly what the show could have been building toward.

People keep mentioning a set up for Black Panther, what was that exactly?

[Jon AS]

People keep mentioning a set up for Black Panther, what was that exactly?

Wakanda was mentioned (as the place where Vibranium comes from) and IIRC Klaue is a Black Panther villain.

[protar]

That makes a lot of sense actually, and it's exactly the sort of tie ins we expected to see when the show kicked off. It's sad how massively unlikely your suggestion seems now. He's the guy who should have the helicarrier, he's the guy who should be causing Cap to say 'this is what SHIELD is supposed to be', this is exactly what the show could have been building toward.

People keep mentioning a set up for Black Panther, what was that exactly?

It's sad if Whedon's personal dislike of the show and Coulson's resurrection is stopping that kind of thing from happening.

Anyway, the Black Panther set up was the stuff with Andy Serkis' character, Ulysses Klaue. The Vibranium came out of Wakanda, which is BP's home country and Klaue is a BP villain in the comics, probably going to be the main villain in the BP film.

[RumHam]

The aim for the show really seems to have been no more than milking the Marvel brand on network TV without getting in the way of the real cash cows, with no thought given how it could be used to the benefit of the shared world setting.

Joss Whedon even regrets Coulson's resurrection, and it seems that may have been a big reason to keep the show as far away from the movie as possible.

Wow that sucks to hear someone at Marvel actually admit that. Isn't Whedon a producer on the show? Somehow I thought it was his idea to bring Coulson back, or at least that he was ok with it.

[red snow]

It's sad if Whedon's personal dislike of the show and Coulson's resurrection is stopping that kind of thing from happening.

Anyway, the Black Panther set up was the stuff with Andy Serkis' character, Ulysses Klaue. The Vibranium came out of Wakanda, which is BP's home country and Klaue is a BP villain in the comics, probably going to be the main villain in the BP film.

Yeah, and he lost his hand which gives him a reason to put a super weapon in its place.

That link to Whedon's dissing of SHIELD seems strange - it highlights how it was just his name on the show (and probably explains the rocky start). Slightly hypocritical too, considering how often he's brought characters back to life in his and other people's properties. It just highlights how. I think he'd be far better suited going back to creator owned again where he can inject more of his great one liners like

"we'll never surrender" (we're surrendering)"

"Nice to chat" "no it wasn't"

I haven't seen season 2 of SHIELD but I suspect they are tying into the film - in which case surely the finding of the helicarrier is what they'll be doing? That was the impression I got when Fury said he had someone in mind for handling it with Hill.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Just got back. It was really good, I thought. :)

Couple of questions:

Are Stark and Hawkeye leaving? That's the impression I got. I know they're in Cap 3, but are they disappearing afterwards?

How did they lose Loki's staff to Hydra? Did Hydra smuggle it away when it was pretending to be SHIELD?

[protar]

With the sceptre presumably yes. I do kind of like how the audience was just left to fill in some of the gaps for themselves. Rather than explaining all the new things in detail.

I'm a bit confused as to the state of the original Avengers as well. Hawkeye is probably spending some quality time with his family. Stark seems to be retiring to but I'm not sure why. My impression before seeing the movie would be that Stark was so ashamed of creating Ultron that he retires from the Avengers and sets to work on the SHRA. But that's not the impression I got from the end of this. In any case both will almost certainly be back for Infinity War.

[protar]

I'm kind of glad Whedon is leaving. Don't get me wrong I liked both Avengers films. But the guy seems not to know when to dial down the snark and get serious. If TWS is any indication of what Infinity War will be like, it's in much better hands with the Russo Brothers.

[RumHam]

How did they lose Loki's staff to Hydra? Did Hydra smuggle it away when it was pretending to be SHIELD?

There was a tie in comic about that, but essentially yes.

[Poobah]

Just got back from seeing this with my girlfriend - we both loved it but were both disappointed with the complete lack of any kind of Agents of SHIELD reference. I kinda get it that when they were making it AoS was getting panned and haemorrhaging viewers but now it's a much better show (and as far as I can tell reviewing much better etc. too) and I feel like Marvel needs to commit to it if they want it to be the success it could be.

On topic : I think Age of Ultron is really well done, I didn't feel it was over-long and in fact thought it suffered somewhat from some scenes that obviously got left on the cutting room floor. I liked the ensamble and how everyone interacted and loved Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Banner/Hulk all getting screentime and character development. This is definitely up there as one of my favourite marvel-verse movies with Cap 2.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Just got back. It was really good, I thought. :)

Couple of questions:

Are Stark and Hawkeye leaving? That's the impression I got. I know they're in Cap 3, but are they disappearing afterwards?

Nope, Hawkeye is just spending some time with his family.

Stark is unclear- seems like he retires after every movie now only to come back in the next.

[Maltaran]

Stark is unclear- seems like he retires after every movie now only to come back in the next.

Since Civil War will have him and Cap on opposite sides, it makes sense for him to leave the Avengers now. This way they can start CW without having to show the two of them splitting up.

I really liked the film, I'd put it probably third on my list of Marvel movies, after the first Avengers and GotG. The only big thing I didn't like was how obviously they set up Hawkeye as the red herring for who dies. They introduce his family, his wife's pregnant, he takes a family photo with him on the mission - all the obvious action movie death tropes, therefore it was immediately clear he would survive.

[Maltaran]

Another thing I forgot to mention - the scene where the twins first meet Ultron - in a generic Eastern European country, a hooded man sitting on a throne and all you can see is a metal arm...does this remind you of anyone? ;)

[protar]

Not to stroke my ego too much, but some things I would have changed:

> Dial down the humour a notch. I like the MCU being funny and I like the one liners. But it felt a bit too much at times. I wanted this film to have a darker tone than it did.

> Ultron causing havoc on the internet. He couldn't access nuclear launch codes, but there's a large gulf between doing that and doing nothing. He could have shut down whole cities hypothetically. And you can't smash someone on the internet - the Avengers would have been powerless to stop this so it would have been a race to find him before the whole world is flung into chaos.

> More character deaths. War Machine, Laura Barton, and Maria Hill (as well as Quicksilver as in the film) would all have been on the cutting block in my fantasy version of the film.

> And more explicit civilian casualties. Like the scene where Cap fails to keep that car falling off a cliff. Thor shouldn't have swept in to save the day.

> Just personal preference as a Game of Thrones fan but I would have dialed up the incest subtext a notch.

> As I said above, have Coulson and the AoS cast appear instead of (or in addition to, Fury). Maybe even give Skye Avengers status in the final scene (Instead of War Machine who again, would be dead.

> More Vision. I feel he didn't get enough screen time. I was expecting his phasing powers to be the key to destroying Ultron's vibranium form, but instead we barely saw them.

> The Avengers parting on less good terms. Cap and Tony physically fought in this film, and ultimately the entire plot is the result of Tony's mad schemes. And yet the two of them part on good terms. The end scenes of this film should very explicitly have set up Civil War.

[red snow]

Another thing I forgot to mention - the scene where the twins first meet Ultron - in a generic Eastern European country, a hooded man sitting on a throne and all you can see is a metal arm...does this remind you of anyone? ;)

It wasn't just me then :)

[Jon AS]

Wow that sucks to hear someone at Marvel actually admit that. Isn't Whedon a producer on the show? Somehow I thought it was his idea to bring Coulson back, or at least that he was ok with it.

I think he had a least a hand in bringing him back, yes. It's not like nobody has ever regretted past decisions, so I mostly find that refreshingly honest. Not sure what his brother and sister-in-law think about him distancing his movies from the show that much, though.

"we'll never surrender" (we're surrendering)"

"Nice to chat" "no it wasn't"

There were many funny lines, a lot of them by Ultron.

"I'm glad you asked that, because I wanted to take this time to explain my evil plan."

I haven't seen season 2 of SHIELD but I suspect they are tying into the film - in which case surely the finding of the helicarrier is what they'll be doing? That was the impression I got when Fury said he had someone in mind for handling it with Hill.

I guess it could still happen, but that's not the direction the show has been going.

I'm kind of glad Whedon is leaving. Don't get me wrong I liked both Avengers films. But the guy seems not to know when to dial down the snark and get serious. If TWS is any indication of what Infinity War will be like, it's in much better hands with the Russo Brothers.

I like the snark, it helps to balance the inherent ridiculousness of superhero stories. Of course you still need the actors and characters to make it work, but both Downey's Stark and Spader's Ultron do it masterfully.

It wasn't just me then :)

Apparently the hood is part of his original design?

[Maltaran]

It wasn't just me then :)

Well, from the start it was clear that Sokovia was "Latveria-but-we-can't-call-it-that", so a Doom reference was inevitable.

[red snow]

With the sceptre presumably yes. I do kind of like how the audience was just left to fill in some of the gaps for themselves. Rather than explaining all the new things in detail.

I'm a bit confused as to the state of the original Avengers as well. Hawkeye is probably spending some quality time with his family. Stark seems to be retiring to but I'm not sure why. My impression before seeing the movie would be that Stark was so ashamed of creating Ultron that he retires from the Avengers and sets to work on the SHRA. But that's not the impression I got from the end of this. In any case both will almost certainly be back for Infinity War.

I took it as the team they were training at the end were the new line-up? I was hoping Quicksilver would blur into the scene before the final cut though.

I guess they have to write Stark out every film as they never know whether RDJR will be with them for the next one. I thought Infinity part 2 was the one without the main Avengers but this ending suggested otherwise.

Spader would make a great Dr Doom, thinking about it.

I agree with others that the MU is probably/hopefully in safer hands with the Russos and Gunn going forward. Again, Whedon didn't make a bad film by any means but there's been more of a spark in the other films. Unless Marvel are getting too tight on their control of films? Edgar Wright walked and some of Whedon's talk on the process being exhausting could be indicative of similar problems.