R+L=J v.140

[RumHam]

So I rely on audiobooks & that means that I don't get to read TWOIAF because I doubt it has an audiobook (never really checked though)...

It does, they got Dotrice to do it.

[LmL]

^^^ and of course Dotrice nails it like a boss. Some complain about is voicing an 11 year old girl, but he has "old crusty maester" down cold. :smoking:

[addicted to snow]

I tend to believe that the significance of the reveal is that it will be a bit of a combination of most of those items. Initially it will create something of an identity crisis. Assuming Rheagar and Lyanna were married, Jon essentially will be told that in reality, he is not the bastard son of Ned Stark but the true-born son of Rhaegar Targaryen and rightful heir to the Targ dynasty. Imagine how mind blowing that information would be to him. GRRM wants the reader's mind to be blown at the same time as Jon's mind is blown (although the spoilers on that issue have made that desire largely impossible). So some drama in the story is born from that development.

Next, being a Targ will enable Jon to ride a dragon. But Jon is more than just another Targ. He is the Song of Ice and Fire -- the unique combination of Stark talents and Targ talents -- he is TPTWP. In some respects these unique abilities will be critical in allowing him to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. Some how, some way, Jon will be able to bring balance between the opposing forces of Ice and Fire due to his unique heritage. I don't know how GRRM plans to work out that plot development, but it seems to be foreshadowed unambiguously.

Finally, if Jon becomes a candidate for King, being the son of Rhaegar may be relevant in making him an acceptable choice for the IT. Being the bastard son of Ned Stark might make Jon harder to swallow by some of the Lords who would be part of any GC. But the hero of the war -- who also happens to be the true Targ heir -- makes a fairly good candidate for king.

GRRM is a talented writer if two people can devote a fair portion of their time to studying his novels, & each develop plot 'forecast' that are as different as yours & mine... There is more than jus ambiguity at play here... I think he leave little seeds of plot development all over the place... some he uses, some he does not... It can be very easy to pick up the unused seeds & run with it (Note: I'm not suggesting that this is what you did, more likely, it is what I have done)...

[addicted to snow]

Dotrice is talented... there is no doubt...

& thanks for the info...

[LmL]

2.) Does he ride a dragon? I think a lot of people feel this to be the case whether or not he's a bastard. Which dragon will he ride? Will ghost die? It would seem odd for him to be bonded to two different animals intimately.

Yes, I'm almost sure Ghost has to die. The Mithras correlations to Jon shown in detail in Schendrick's Lightbringer post point in that direction, as Mithras must slay the white bull (which is a part of himself) to be reborn. I also think that Mirri Maz Dur's botched resurrection ceremony (intentionally botched most likely) is similar to what needs to happen to Jon. His body must be animated, and then his soul must be evicted from ghost and put back into his body. Radio Westeros' theory on this is that Mel does the resurrection, and Bran / BR do the warg soul transfer. But Ghost won't be dead, not totally - because we know a wart's spirit mingles with his beast the longer he's in there. Radio W also suggest he will come back wolfier, which I agree with, and of course it depends on how long he's in Ghost. But I'm pretty sure Ghost has to die. :(

I for one do not think Jon will ride one of Dany's dragons, although I could be wrong. I think that the Ice Dragon is a real thing - this is one of those things that George saw people were not taking seriously, and so put in a bunch of clues about them in TWOAIF to draw our attention to it. Remember the Qarthine legend that says the moon once cracked like an egg and gave birth to dragons? That same prophecy says the other moon will one day kiss the sun and dragons will return. I think that it the Ice Dragon we are gong to see.

Now, the moon didn't actually wander too close to the sun of course. I think the Azor Ahai myth, on a celestial level, tells the story: the sun, Azor Ahai, slew his wife, the moon, with a fiery sword - a red comet. The comet's orbit had just brought it back around the sun when it hit the moon, and it seems that the moon was in an eclipse formation (textual clues in my essay) when it was struck, so from part of the planet it would appear the sun cracked because it was too close to the moon as the comet would be hidden between the moon and the sun, while in a different part of the world, they'd see the comet as a red line between the sun and moon, who would be close but not overlaid upon one another. Point being, the comet split (textual evidence in my essay), and one half hit the second moon at the time of the Long Night, while the other half is the red comet we see in the story. It's disappeared because it has gone around the far side of the sun, and will return (it may have already, Barristan see a thin red slash in the Dawn sky at the end of ADWD).

The previously destroyed moon seems to have been a fire moon - it gave birth to "dragons," which I believe were the flaming meteors of the exploded second moon (more evidence in my essay). The remaining moon I believe to be an ice moon, and so when it is struck, it should somehow manifest ice dragons / an Ice dragon. I do think Jon himself is symbolic of the ice dragon, but I also think we get a real Ice Dragon.

[JonSnow4President]

GRRM is a talented writer if two people can devote a fair portion of their time to studying his novels, & each develop plot 'forecast' that are as different as yours & mine... There is more than jus ambiguity at play here... I think he leave little seeds of plot development all over the place... some he uses, some he does not... It can be very easy to pick up the unused seeds & run with it (Note: I'm not suggesting that this is what you did, more likely, it is what I have done)...

Not that you really care, but that last sentence just made me like you a lot more.

[addicted to snow]

We can hold hands if you like...

[LmL]

What's great about this convo is that one of you is a three-headed dragon fucking a dire wolf, and the other is the product of said union.

[addicted to snow]

Regarding my Theory that Jon will Warg Ghost, but when he takes human form again (as Mel's vision implies), he will be utilizing Hodor as his primary (host) body...

Perhaps you guys, girls & even robots like sj4iy will think that I am a little less crazy if I can place Jon Snow & Hodor at the same time & place in TWoW... I will attempt that below...

Point #1:

1. GRRM said that we would get a POV character in the Heart of Winter, and what better book to do that in than The Winds of Winter?
   
2. In AGoTs, Jon Snow promised Tyrion that if Benjin Stark did not return, that "Ghost & I will go find him (Benjin)"... Given that Jon will be warged into Ghost, Jon was being very literal when he said "Ghost & I" will go find him...
   

I think GRRM will kill two birds with one stone, If Benjin is @ the Heart of Winter, then we get our Heart of Winter POV & Ghost/Jon finds Benjin all in the same chapter (or three). I can't give exact quotations & whatnot, but there is a ton of foreshadowing that suggest that Ghost & Val will be spending a lot of time together behind the wall in TWoW. I think Val will be Ghost/Jon's guide to the Heart of Winter. Val has already proven capable of rangings that are thought to be impossible by most (& with a 1/2 blind horse at that. If anyone knows how to find the Heart of Winter, it is Val.

Jon will find not only find Benjin, but he will obviously learn some useful knowledge about the Others - Probably that Benjin either Is an Other or that he is well on his way to becoming an Other. This is because "The Cold Hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell" that Ned ponders on AGoTs is located in The Heart of Winter.

Ghost/Jon will not get along with these Others & he will exit The Heart of Winter on bad terms...

Point #2 (Note, This may seem far removed from previous point, but it will all come together):

When Jojen & Meera first came to Winterfell, after swearing their oath, Meera immediately says "Where are the direwolves? My Brother would like to see them." Little Walder replied "Best be sure that they don't see him, or else they are like to take a bite out of him!" Bran finally left the great Hall, went to bed & had a wolf dream.

Bran was inside of Summer, in the Gods Wood. The Direwolves were growling @ the Reeds. Meera mentions how large they are & Jojen says they they will get much much bigger. Meera was very leery & fingering her knife blade & telling Jojen to be careful, but Jojen only said "Relax Sister, this is not the day I die."

Jojen's statement, "this is not the day I die" has always struck me as rather curious. Also worth noting is that Jojen can't possibly have seen a full grown direwolf before, yet he knows that they will get much, much larger... We later learn that Jojen has Green Dreams. Jojen knows how large they will get because he has seen a fully grown direwolf in his Green Dreams. This is why Jojen says "this is not the day I die." because Jojen has seen his own death in his dreams. Jojen knows how he will die. He knows that he will be eaten by a direwolf, and he has clearly shared this information with his sister.

Meera is frightened because she thinks that this might be the day that he dies, but Jojen is not frightened at all, he is confident... Why? Because he is looking at a Black Direwolf & a Grey Direwolf; and he knows that it is a white wolf that will eat him...

Fast Forward to ADWDs. Jojen is depressed, & he mopes around, wondering endlessly through the caves because he has accepted his fate... This means that Jojen knows that this cave is where he will meet his end... or where he will meet a white direwolf, shall we say...

Point #3:

About 1.5 to 2.0 years ago GRRM did an interview where he told the reader that he was working on TWoW... I'll Paraphrase... GRRM was quoted saying "You have Jon Snow, running through the forrest, pursued by enemies. He is hungry. What is he going to eat? What is my next sentence? What is my next word?"

Many, if not most people who read this interview took this as a hypothetical situation that GRRM quickly thought up during the interview to use as a generic example. However, that is not the way GRRM works. In GRRM-Land, nothing is said that does not boast one or more meanings. In this case, GRRM was really & truly describing a scenario/scene that takes place in TWOW - He was not hypothetically speaking.

Point #4:

ColdHands tells Bran that the Cave they are trying to reach does have a "backdoor" that is a couple of miles away & it can be found at the bottom of a sink-hole... Note: GRRM does not give random information like this unless the reader will at some point see someone or something of significance fall down that sink-hole. I think everyone will agree on this point.

Conclusion (Putting it all together):

Ghost Jon is returning from the Heart of Winter, armed with new truths about the Starks, the Others, and their relationship. But Ghost/Jon has been traveling in the barren, frozen wastelands of the Lands of Always Winter for weeks & he has not eaten - He is starving to death... Ghost Jon has made it as far South as the Northern edge of the Haunted Forrest. To complicate matters, the Others &/or Wights are in hot pursuit, chasing Ghost/Jon through the forrest. Just when he is on the verge of being taken/captured/killed, the snow gives way under under his paws & he falls into a sink-hole & spills into a large room that appears to be part of a cave network - a cave network that happens to be warded against Ghost/Jon's pursuers. Realizing that he is now safe, Ghost/Jon chances across a small, depressed boy who is wondering around the caverns... Jon Snow Kills & Eats Jojen Reed...

All of these clues fit together far too well not to be right...

This places Jon Snow in very near proximity to Bran, The 3-Eyed-Crow, & yes Hodor... Now if Jon Snow could just find a means out of his 2nd life in Ghost, then he could 'Take' Hodor & be the strongest man in Westeros (with a member larger that Tormund's)...

After all, Hodor has been thoroughly 'broken in' to skinchanging by Bran. GRRM explained in ADWDs that a skinchanged animal is much like a horse that has been broken in to one rider - It is not difficult for a 2nd rider to come along and ride him... This means that Jon will find a means of taking Hodor's Body...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Addicted to snow,

As far as Jojen being eaten by a direwolf goes, that doesn't really fit with the text.

“He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”

Whatever it will be that kills Jojen, it appears to happen at Greywater Watch.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

@Avalatis,

1.) Does this put him as a player for the Iron Throne?

2.) Does he ride a dragon?
3.) Will he get some power up from this knowledge? The Song of Ice and Fire? Azor Ahai?

4.) Or is this nothing more then fulfilling a prophecy we the readers have yet to hear the full details of?

5.) Or just used to further make Jon's story sad and miserable?

1. I imagine Jon might be seen as a contender for the reign of the realms of men. I also imagine the IT will go away, literally, either a) by mad queen Cersei's wildfire blowup or b) in case of Dany and/or her Dragons ever going West, their fire too.
   I also think Jon will do the Aemon Targaryen and pass it on, so as not to claim it, (no matter how many swords they will give me).
   I furthermore can very well imagine the office of the king of the Seven Kingdoms might no longer exist, independently from the furniture being obliterated.
   
2. Why is Jon a warg? There are many answers to the question, not mentioning dragons. Should any dragons appear around Jon, I think his warging ability is meant for him to bond with one, but see a) above, not any longer so sure if the dragons will leave Essos.
   
3. Well, the power should go without him knowing, because so far he was quite capable of all that heroism without it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. Has he got power? He does.
   
4. No. Prophesy is an in-story tool or thing leading many in-story people by their noses. It is not self-sufficient all for its own sake.
   
5. That, too :)

If Yandel steps into Sam's chamber and tosses his book onto his bed, that makes everything in TWOIAF canon as hell.

I disagree. Fully disagree. It is still just a book, written by someone with a mind to say what is in there.

[Mithras]

I disagree. Fully disagree. It is still just a book, written by someone with a mind to say what is in there.

There are many things that the characters in the story know but not revealed to us yet. Many people know the family tree of a random noble House and many people know the details of the songs (like Florian and Jonquil) which are still missing for us. So, if something of this sort was first revealed in the World Book, there is still no reason to assume that it has no correspondence to the main saga.

One might argue that D&E novellas are standalone pieces that are not quite necessary to understand the main saga (though I would heatedly argue against it). But for the World Book, it is not even arguable. The World Book is structurally different from D&E novellas. It is written in the present time by a maester at Oldtown where we have a POV.

Of course Yandel is highly misguided (when it comes to magic and prophecies) and that is the beauty of the World Book: to try to reach the truth through a false historical account.

[LmL]

I myself see some ethical problems with your Hodor theory. "Hodor is a man, not a beast." If George has Jon take over Hodor's body in a permanent way, that's kind of tantamount to saying mentally handicapped people aren't really people, or that they aren't important, that they can just be shoved aside. I really don't think that's something George would do. I'm not sure if you've considered that angle. And I'm not accusing you of anything, just making the point that to have a hero steal Hodor's body permanently would be very problematic in that sense.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, I'm almost sure Ghost has to die. The Mithras correlations to Jon shown in detail in Schendrick's Lightbringer post point in that direction, as Mithras must slay the white bull (which is a part of himself) to be reborn. I also think that Mirri Maz Dur's botched resurrection ceremony (intentionally botched most likely) is similar to what needs to happen to Jon. His body must be animated, and then his soul must be evicted from ghost and put back into his body. Radio Westeros' theory on this is that Mel does the resurrection, and Bran / BR do the warg soul transfer. But Ghost won't be dead, not totally - because we know a wart's spirit mingles with his beast the longer he's in there. Radio W also suggest he will come back wolfier, which I agree with, and of course it depends on how long he's in Ghost. But I'm pretty sure Ghost has to die. :(

I for one do not think Jon will ride one of Dany's dragons, although I could be wrong. I think that the Ice Dragon is a real thing - this is one of those things that George saw people were not taking seriously, and so put in a bunch of clues about them in TWOAIF to draw our attention to it. Remember the Qarthine legend that says the moon once cracked like an egg and gave birth to dragons? That same prophecy says the other moon will one day kiss the sun and dragons will return. I think that it the Ice Dragon we are gong to see.

Now, the moon didn't actually wander too close to the sun of course. I think the Azor Ahai myth, on a celestial level, tells the story: the sun, Azor Ahai, slew his wife, the moon, with a fiery sword - a red comet. The comet's orbit had just brought it back around the sun when it hit the moon, and it seems that the moon was in an eclipse formation (textual clues in my essay) when it was struck, so from part of the planet it would appear the sun cracked because it was too close to the moon as the comet would be hidden between the moon and the sun, while in a different part of the world, they'd see the comet as a red line between the sun and moon, who would be close but not overlaid upon one another. Point being, the comet split (textual evidence in my essay), and one half hit the second moon at the time of the Long Night, while the other half is the red comet we see in the story. It's disappeared because it has gone around the far side of the sun, and will return (it may have already, Barristan see a thin red slash in the Dawn sky at the end of ADWD).

The previously destroyed moon seems to have been a fire moon - it gave birth to "dragons," which I believe were the flaming meteors of the exploded second moon (more evidence in my essay). The remaining moon I believe to be an ice moon, and so when it is struck, it should somehow manifest ice dragons / an Ice dragon. I do think Jon himself is symbolic of the ice dragon, but I also think we get a real Ice Dragon.

Hm, you know when your talkinig about splitting the sun and moon with the Comet and the Comet is first depicted at Dawn and dusk, your really talking about twilight. As loath as I am to even associate the name with the series. That other series really left a bad taste with the word for me. But twilight is what you would be looking at, the phase inbetween night and day. It covers both Dawn and Dusk so that works well. It's also one thing that iss the both the begining and the end.

As for Ghost, now you could say that Ghost is a sacrifice. I take it the association with the White bull and Ghost is because Ghost is white and symbolic of something sacred like the old gods or the weirwood trees. Which is fine, but Bran or Bloodraven could knock Jon out of Ghost without killing him, just like Bran knocked him out of his human body, pain also does it, and it does not need to be death, we see that with Bran as well. You know if you could just get second life by sacrificing an animal everyone would be doing it. It's not really a balance, as awesome as Ghost is.

Now the sacrifice in Dany's story did have an animal, but it had the person she loved, and a child and Mirri. Man, woman and child. Though, it relates to 3 not one. Now of course Jon had his spear wife, who died. And their is the imagery that Jon stole Val as well as Yiggy. But also that Val and Jon had a sort of symbolic wedding. The giving og gifts in a way, Tormund giving Jon gold bands, the wall was blue, Ghost escorting Val to Jon, she is all in White and Jon is all in black. Now it's kind of intresting that Martin suddenly decided to put Val in all white, and not just that, he marked her with a Weirwood, her Weirwood broach with the face of an old god carved into it.

So Ghost is not the only thing wandering around with the imagery of an Old god and is all in white. Then it really comes down to what kind of sacrifice you are talkiing about, the ritualistic kind, or the giving kind. Anyway Ghost is not the only one with that sacred symbolism right now. Do think Martin just changed Vals outfit for fun? There is also the idea that the sacrifice with Azor is not about a friend, it's the significant other. Jon and Ghost are tight no question but it is not that male, female, husband wife symbolism. There is also like in Dany's sacrifice, a child. Not to say Jon would do that, but a fire at the Tower of Hardin, a colapse, (Jon gets a lot of plot gifts, so usually if something like this happens it's because of something someone else does.)

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. I will say this if I was going to associate Mithras with anyone it would not be Jon. At least not currently he lacks the symbolism.

I mean for that I need sun and moon, water, thunderbolt, fire and stone, lion and serpant, 3 stalks of wheat, sacrifice of something sacred, changing of the seasons and so on. Only one place you get that. By the way Selmy's sigil is 3 wheat stalks, and Daenerys Stormborn of the flaming rock known as Dragonstone, who is known as the last Dragon likes to wear her white lion pelt and and everytime she loses her hair in a fire, the white Ravens fly. She is also heavily associated with water, Dragonstone an Island, Braavos, and of course the womb of the world where all life came from (so the myth goes anyway, but blatant symbolic meaning) and of course the sun and the moon.

Jon, and Dany of course mirror, but he just doesn't have all that Mithras mythos, I mean without Hightower he would be really short. Though Jon did not sacrifice the white bull. Of course then you got the idea that cycles invert. I mean if I was looking for a cycle to repeat I would look at how Westeros and Essos use inverted symbolism and why. Because like any cycle they rotate, night in one is day in the other, fire rises in one and ice rises in the other. Eventually the two shall meet, Twilight.

Think about Azor Ahai, that's Essos, not Westeros. The last hero that's Westeros. It's the same pattern as the Valyrians. Ice rose to power in Essos, then came it's defeat and it moved to Westeros. Just like the Valyrians and the Targs. Valyrians would rise to power, then fall, and the Targs would move to Westeros and start the whole thing over, then fall, then Dany starts the whole thing over. Everytime the scale is getting smaller, it's condensing till it eventually returns to it's core, the end and the begining.

[Alia of the knife]

On the topic of Hodor, I think George is making exactly that point in Bran using Hodor.

Its not ethical, even amongst those who are wargs, so I think that definitely points Bran in a very grey direction, and we know that "grey area" is a place that George likes to go.

I think that while Ghost does Jon the service of saving his soul, I don't think that is a place that Jon long inhabits. The elaborate, over-the-top suggestions of what becomes of Jon defeats the simplicity of his purpose.

I have long speculated that in his "death state," he will "awaken" and see what he will later understand to be the truth about his heritage. I also think that it is quite possible that Jon, like Dany will be reborn through fire.

They have made much and more of burning the dead for various reasons, but to keep them from turning seems to be the foremost reason. I believe that when they attempt to burn Jons body either to hide the circumstances of his death, or to keep him from becoming a Wight, they will get a nasty surprise, and Jon is going to be an ENTIRELY different person.

"The sleeper must awaken," and "Kill the boy, let the man be born," are strong themes of Martins in terms of "knowing," or "becoming."

Staying in a wolf, or coming back as zombie Jon defeats the purpose of his own rebirth to truth and the unique mythos of his bloodline.

As far as the WB goes, its a great companion piece on its own, but how much that plays into current Westeros, I don't know. It explains the mythical notions of the birth and death of kingdoms as in the case of Rome and Romulus and Reemus, and I think Martin does this to give Westeros its own mythical foundations, but he basically said its the story of The War of the Roses, but with dragons, so very much about war and how it affects the people who get caught in the path and struggles of those playing tGoT.

Martin does not appear to be a fan of religion, and has said himself he is a "low magic fantasy writer," only sprinkling it in when its necessary, but he doesn't want to overdo it, so I would not be surprised if magic was introduced only to be replaced by reason;.

[Mithras]

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. I will say this if I was going to associate Mithras with anyone it would not be Jon. At least not currently he lacks the symbolism.

Dany didnot shake hands with anybody IIRC, Jon did.

Dany didnot enter a male only military order and passed through symbolic initiation stages, Jon did.

Mithras is also a mediator god overseeing agreements, contracts etc. Dany was never in such a position, Jon was.

[LmL]

Ser Creighton, I have good news for you. You apparently have never read what I consider to be the best essay on this entire board, Schendrick's R+L=Lightbringer. I say his because Jon is in fact covered in Mithras symbolism (almost hilariously so), as this excellent essay breaks down in detail. I call it good news for you because it's really fabulous and enjoyable, I'm sure you will like it since you obviously have a knowledge of mythology.

Azor Ahai came to Westeros, it seems. That was the battle fought at Battle Isle. You've read my essays right? Maybe not the third one - that's the one about the Great Empire of the Dawn, Asshai, Azor coming West, etc.

Interesting points about Val, I agree there's something important going on there and I would t be surprised to see her being involved in his ressurection.

When we are tracing Martin's use of mythology, remember not to be to strict. A white bull died at the place of Jon's birth - that's close enough for a Mithras correlation. But I do believe Ghost will be reprising this role.

Yes, there were three deaths associated with Dany's waking of dragons, but it's really just the Drogo part that would be similar to Jon's hypothetical ressurection - he's not trying to hatch three dragon eggs. And I don't think it's an easy thing to resurrect a warg's body and out the soul back in, so I wouldn't consider that some kind of easy escape clause for all skin changers. We don't know what Jon's resurrected body will be like (I'm guessing it will be like Coldhands, but who knows), how long it will last, what limitations it will have. There's no reason to think he will be immortal now or something. And he's needs other people to do the magic - so a skinchanger can't do this for himself.

As for dawn and dusk, I see this personified in the two magic swords. Dawn, the sword of the morning, gives of bluish white pale light, and is described in icy terms. The morning sun, in mythology, is associated with blue, because if the morning mists and the fact that it is cold at sunrise. Lightbringer, the red sword of Azor Ahai, is the sunset sword. Red is the color of the setting sun, both physically and mythological lay, as the sun was seen to "die" at the end of the day and be reborn at Dawn - the red connotates blood and death, sacrifice. As I said above, Azor Ahai was not a good guy - he was actually the Bloodstone Emperor, who usurped the throne and committed the blood betrayal, causing the Long Night (according to eastern legend of course). That's why he has the sunset sword - he caused the sun to go away, and night to fall.

[Mithras]

Another thing: It is believed that people favored by Mithras showed extraordinary feats in horseriding when they are young. Alexander the Great is a famous one. So is Mithridates (his name literally means gift of Mithra).

The only horse riding feat Dany showed was the instance she jumped over a pit of fire when she first rode silver (which is certainly something symbolic - In Nowruz, it is an ancient tradition to jump over fire and make a wish).

However, the silver made everything easy for Dany here. She didnot show extraordinary feat. Silver is an extraordinary horse.

Compare that to how Jon was able to mount a random horse and ride for Castle Black with a sword in hand and an arrow buried in his leg.

Who is the red herring and who is the real god?

[LmL]

On the topic of Hodor, I think George is making exactly that point in Bran using Hodor.

Its not ethical, even amongst those who are wargs, so I think that definitely points Bran in a very grey direction, and we know that "grey area" is a place that George likes to go.

I think that while Ghost does Jon the service of saving his soul, I don't think that is a place that Jon long inhabits. The elaborate, over-the-top suggestions of what becomes of Jon defeats the simplicity of his purpose.

I have long speculated that in his "death state," he will "awaken" and see what he will later understand to be the truth about his heritage. I also think that it is quite possible that Jon, like Dany will be reborn through fire.

They have made much and more of burning the dead for various reasons, but to keep them from turning seems to be the foremost reason. I believe that when they attempt to burn Jons body either to hide the circumstances of his death, or to keep him from becoming a Wight, they will get a nasty surprise, and Jon is going to be an ENTIRELY different person.

"The sleeper must awaken," and "Kill the boy, let the man be born," are strong themes of Martins in terms of "knowing," or "becoming."

Staying in a wolf, or coming back as zombie Jon defeats the purpose of his own rebirth to truth and the unique mythos of his bloodline.

As far as the WB goes, its a great companion piece on its own, but how much that plays into current Westeros, I don't know. It explains the mythical notions of the birth and death of kingdoms as in the case of Rome and Romulus and Reemus, and I think Martin does this to give Westeros its own mythical foundations, but he basically said its the story of The War of the Roses, but with dragons, so very much about war and how it affects the people who get caught in the path and struggles of those playing tGoT.

Martin does not appear to be a fan of religion, and has said himself he is a "low magic fantasy writer," only sprinkling it in when its necessary, but he doesn't want to overdo it, so I would not be surprised if magic was introduced only to be replaced by reason;.

Martin is a fan of religion, in the sense that mythology and religion are basically the same thing. He's a lapsed catholic, and really he seems to embrace the Bhuddist philophy of Yin and Yang all through his work, but he himself doesn't claim to be religious, that's correct. But he also said he drew inspiration from Gnosticism and Mithraism, among other things. You could call those religions or mythology - it's a semantic difference. The point is, George is well steeped in these things and has used the thoroughly all through the series. He's dipped into Christian ideas a few times also, especially with the whole Lucifer / Lightbringer mythos.

I agree with a lot of your musings here about Jon. He's not going to be a zombie, because his soul will be preserved in Ghost (although it will merge with Ghost a bit, and so if Ghost is indeed sacrificed, part of him will live in in Jon (a ghost of Ghost). When he comes back he's going to be fully "Jon," although his body might be like Coldhands, or oerhaps Coldhands with a bit of Victarion's arm thrown in. Remember, he dreams of holding Azor Ahai's red sword whe being armored in black ice. Sounds like a merging of ice and fire.

[LmL]

Come on Mithras, Dany isn't a red herring, don't say stuff like that that you know isn't true. :) I don't see her checking off the Mithras symbolism (although I haven't done a hard search for it) in the way Jon does, but they certainly are parallel characters and are equally important.

If you think George is going to make Dany the straight up bad guy, I think you're fooling yourself. You've just had too many stupid arguments with "Dany worshippers" and you're letting that cloud your judgement. Jon and Dany will both be doing grey things and necessary evils and such. You know how this goes.