Sympathy for Shae?

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Does anyone besides me feel sorry for Shae or at least view her as a sympathetic character?

I just think people make her out to be more of a traitor than she actually was. True, she didn't return Tyrion's "love" but I don't think she ever stated she truly loved him.

Tyrion saw Shae at the Lannister army camp and thought he would make her his Jonquil, or his Juliet. Tyrion had been looking for true love ever since his father nixed his first marriage.

Shae on the other hand I think was mostly looking for protection and security. Life as a medieval prostitue is far from comfortable or safe. Im sure she was fond of Tyrion and liked his wit and personality. But Im sure she liked his power, wealth and ability to provide for her far more. What person in her situation would not?

And yes, she did offer perjured testimony against Tyrion. But while she may have done so willingly (with promises of a mansion and marriage to an important knight) she didn't really ultimately have a choice in the matter. Can you imagine what Cersei would have done to her if she had refused? It hardly bears thinking about.We know how Cersei deals with "inconvenient" people.

People call her a "whore" for shacking up with Tywin, and see that as the ultimate betrayal of her wronged lover, Tyrion. I don't really like her getting with Tywin, but for her it is just one more unpleasant thing she has to do to survive, something she has been doing all her life.

I only mention this because I feel Shae is a character who doesn't get much love or sympathy and I feel she deserves more.

[DJE]

I never liked Shae, she did play Tyrion, she told him all the time I am yours, and you are mine. Plus, she mocked him during the trial, which I think was worse than the perjury. Tyrion was mocked and laughed at his whole life, when she told the court about her giant of Lannister, that was over the line. Sorry, I just can't feel any sympathy for her.

[David Selig]

She is a lot more sympathetic than Tyrion the whiny super privileged asshole multiple murderer and rapist, that's for sure. Not much of an achievement, admittedly.

I never liked Shae, she did play Tyrion, she told him all the time I am yours, and you are mine.

That's what he was paying her for. The girlfriend experience. His super fragile ego needed it.

[Jane99]

I feel sympathy for her. Both Tywin and Tyrion have major issues with whores, and she had no real idea what she was getting into when Tyrion essentially plucked her from a life as camp-follower. I don't fault her for putting her own interests first - she's a prostitute with no-one else to fall back on. She SHOULD be putting her own interests first.

It's not her fault that her patron has a highly romanticised view of their relationship, or that his family are monsters who'll hurt/kill her without a second thought, given the chance.

That's not to say that I don't feel sorry for Tyrion as well, when he's confronted by her at the trial. But it's more I feel sorry that his own self-delusion has hurt him than anything else.

[Valyrian Fork]

I never liked Shae, she did play Tyrion, she told him all the time I am yours, and you are mine. Plus, she mocked him during the trial, which I think was worse than the perjury. Tyrion was mocked and laughed at his whole life, when she told the court about her giant of Lannister, that was over the line. Sorry, I just can't feel any sympathy for her.

He asked her to, essentially. He wanted the "girlfriend experience"; he specifically tells her not to have other male patrons while she works for him, to pour his wine, laugh at his jokes, etc etc. Her job is to pretend to be into him, and only him. That's what he asks for, and then he's such an idiot he can't even let himself acknowledge that it's fake, even while his inner monologue is telling him "she's a whore and this is fake, she's only doing it for the gold". He knew perfectly well that's what he's asking her to do, but he can't make himself stop. If he actually wanted to know her opinion of him, it's easy enough to find out. "Hey Shae, I'm not going to pay you anymore, or let you live a life of luxury that I foot the bill for. Am I still your giant of Lannister?" But he didn't want to know, and the way things played out in Shae's testimony were really not that different from how they played out in the books. He didn't explicitly tell her "call me your giant of Lannister", but he does tell her to do things like that, flattery and exclusivity are what he was paying her for. Then he has a rage stroke and kills her for keeping herself safe now that her "protector" is powerless, which is incredibly ironic after how much he goes on about how much that means to him.

I swear, some people on the forums...

[DJE]

He asked her to, essentially. He wanted the "girlfriend experience"; he specifically tells her not to have other male patrons while she works for him, to pour his wine, laugh at his jokes, etc etc. Her job is to pretend to be into him, and only him. That's what he asks for, and then he's such an idiot he can't even let himself acknowledge that it's fake, even while his inner monologue is telling him "she's a whore and this is fake, she's only doing it for the gold". He knew perfectly well that's what he's asking her to do, but he can't make himself stop. If he actually wanted to know her opinion of him, it's easy enough to find out. "Hey Shae, I'm not going to pay you anymore, or let you live a life of luxury that I foot the bill for. Am I still your giant of Lannister?" But he didn't want to know, and the way things played out in Shae's testimony were really not that different from how they played out in the books. He didn't explicitly tell her "call me your giant of Lannister", but he does tell her to do things like that, flattery and exclusivity are what he was paying her for. Then he has a rage stroke and kills her for keeping herself safe now that her "protector" is powerless, which is incredibly ironic after how much he goes on about how much that means to him.

I swear, some people on the forums...

What do you mean, people with different opinions?

[Grissom]

What do you mean, people with different opinions?

How dare you!

[DJE]

Clearly, I know nothing

[HexMachina]

Yep, I feel sorry for her. Tyrion was deluding himself by thinking she loved him. That's what he paid her for, to pretend she did. She was a prostitute, she did what she was paid to do, and then moved on. She lied in Court? Forgive me if I don't shed a tear, but when the options are more likely than not: lie or die, I would choose to lie every time

[Dire-Lion]

I feel very sorry for the book Shae

[Valyrian Fork]

Yep, I feel sorry for her. Tyrion was deluding himself by thinking she loved him. That's what he paid her for, to pretend she did. She was a prostitute, she did what she was paid to do, and then moved on. She lied in Court? Forgive me if I don't shed a tear, but when the options are more likely than not: lie or die, I would choose to lie every time

She didn't even lie particularly egregiously. She certainly presented things in an unflattering light compared from how Tyrion's POV chapters go, but he's not a super reliable narrator and the basic facts are still the same. He explicitly tells her to bullshit and flatter him and pays for the privilege. If anyone's getting "played", she didn't play him, he played himself. In this kind of situation, "can't con an honest man" is nothing but the truth.

But lol all the gross dudes who are going to come out of the woodwork to defend Tyrion now and talk about how eeeeeevil she was for that deception.

[NorthGirl]

Nope. She should've been smart enough to get out of dodge. She wanted to be in the exciting KL and in the Red Keep and when you lose in KL, your life goes bye bye as well. The fact that she didn't understand that she couldn't have her jewels and wanted to be in the castle painter her as an idiot to me. She could've been super rich in the Free Cities but no, she wanted to screw a powerful men? The side effect of that can be pretty sucky. Ask Aegon the A-home's mistresses, some of them ended pretty badly.

ET: As for the trial, there was definitely a cruel strike as she didn't just present damning facts that assured he would be executed, she went out of her way to humiliate him. My guess is that she was unhappy with Tyrion trying to marry her off to that random knight and his plan is what made her decide to testify. Which, I'm ok with by the way. She's a whore and her livelihood depends on being with powerful clients. She doesn't want to be a housewife. My lack of sympathy comes from her stupidity in thinking that she could actually climb the madder and be part of the high society. Remember her pouting about not being at the wedding? If a character is going to be a greedy social climber, their lack of success due to stupidly assessing the situation makes me lose sympathy when bad stuff happens to them. She should've taken the money and riches and left KL.

[HexMachina]

She didn't even lie particularly egregiously. She certainly presented things in an unflattering light compared from how Tyrion's POV chapters go, but he's not a super reliable narrator and the basic facts are still the same. He explicitly tells her to bullshit and flatter him and pays for the privilege. If anyone's getting "played", she didn't play him, he played himself. In this kind of situation, "can't con an honest man" is nothing but the truth.

But lol all the gross dudes who are going to come out of the woodwork to defend Tyrion now and talk about how eeeeeevil she was for that deception.

Hmm, I thought she said in Court something about Tyrion confessing to the murder plot? I could be misremembering. But yes, I do feel sorry for her.

Nope. She should've been smart enough to get out of dodge. She wanted to be in the exciting KL and in the Red Keep and when you lose in KL, your life goes bye bye as well. The fact that she didn't understand that she couldn't have her jewels and wanted to be in the castle painter her as an idiot to me. She could've been super rich in the Free Cities but no, she wanted to screw a powerful men? The side effect of that can be pretty sucky. Ask Aegon the A-home's mistresses, some of them ended pretty badly.

No-one said she was clever. She's a peasant girl, she likely never had any education.

Eta: And why is it her duty to get out of dodge? She is the weaker/more vulnerable party here. It was her life Tyrion was playing with, not his own.

[Valyrian Fork]

Hmm, I thought she said in Court something about Tyrion confessing to the murder plot? I could be misremembering. But yes, I do feel sorry for her.

That was a lie, yeah; but I'm talking about the person who thinking talking about the "Giant of Lannister" stuff was over the line. I mean, aside from the absurdity, kind of makes you wonder...

Nope. She should've been smart enough to get out of dodge. She wanted to be in the exciting KL and in the Red Keep and when you lose in KL, your life goes bye bye as well. The fact that she didn't understand that she couldn't have her jewels and wanted to be in the castle painter her as an idiot to me. She could've been super rich in the Free Cities but no, she wanted to screw a powerful men? The side effect of that can be pretty sucky. Ask Aegon the A-home's mistresses, some of them ended pretty badly.

ET: As for the trial, there was definitely a cruel strike as she didn't just present damning facts that assured he would be executed, she went out of her way to humiliate him. My guess is that she was unhappy with Tyrion trying to marry her off to that random knight and his plan is what made her decide to testify. Which, I'm ok with by the way. She's a whore and her livelihood depends on being with powerful clients. She doesn't want to be a housewife. My lack of sympathy comes from her stupidity in thinking that she could actually climb the madder and be part of the high society. Remember her pouting about not being at the wedding? If a character is going to be a greedy social climber, their lack of success due to stupidly assessing the situation makes me lose sympathy when bad stuff happens to them. She should've taken the money and riches and left KL.

I'm just going to ignore the blatant misogyny and plain old nastiness, and point out that you're wrong on the facts. She was actually banging Tywin, who at that point was effectively ruler of most of Westeros, and it's ridiculous to suggest she should have realized that Varys would double-cross the Lannisters and free Tyrion, especially given that it was Varys who brought her to Tywin and Cersei in the first place. She did a pretty good job of assessing the situation, it seems to me. Would you blame her for it and feel unsympathetic if she died at sea in the Free Cities? What if her ship was intercepted by slavers? "If you have ambitions for a better life, you deserve bad things that happen to you" is a very fucked up standard of morality

[Witch]

I don't blame her for what she did. Most characters have done worse, Tyrion is a great example.

[Nihlus]

Yes. She wasn't a good person, but she definitely did not deserve what happened to her. She was a peasant who was just trying to get by in life. She was a rather young prostitute, stuck following an army, so clearly she didn't have a lot of prospects in life. Then some noble comes along and offers her a ton of money, plus food and shelter, if only she'll pretend to be his girlfriend. She agrees, and she does the job surprisingly well despite this noble being absolutely revolting in both appearance and personality.

But then he starts changing around the deal. He has her act as a maid. He repeatedly puts her into situations that could get her killed. He physically and verbally abuses her whenever she talks back to him. And there's not a damn thing she can do about it. So she stays, seeing it as her best prospect for securing a better life.

Then... her client gets arrested for a murder that all evidence says he committed. Then the crazy Queen Regent wants her to testify against this guy, under threat of death. Okay, no big deal. The guy's fucked whatever she does, and he was an asshole anyway. And hey! If she testifies, she gets to stay alive! Maybe she'll even get some money or a home, SOMETHING to help her get by in life, to get out of this strange city full of people who can kill her with absolutely no consequences, in a world where she has no chance for social advancement at all unless she saves a Westerlands lord from a lion or brings Stannis some onions. Things were finally looking up for her, at least a bit...

Then she got murdered by a sadistic, petty, delusional egomaniac.

Tyrion is an asshole.

[Petyr Patter]

I have a divided opinion on Shae.

Yes, has apparently had a hard life. Was she really raped by her father at a very young age? Working as a camp follower is also likely to bring out the bad in people. She probably didn't deserve to strangled to death, despite the very serious crime of perjuring an innocent man accussed of a capital offense.

On the other hand, we are never witness to her ever showing the slightest bit of empathy to another person. She insults Lollys for not shrugging off the trauma of a gang rape. She is very clearly manipulating Tyrion's emotions, and the moment he is in trouble she turns on him and twists the knife in the cruelest fashion. I strongly suspect she encouraged the singer to blackmail Tyrion and we know how that ended.

There are worse people, certainly. Tywin, Ramsay, the Mountain. However, while she doesn't the dark black sins like those characters, I can't point to a single act to redeem her character. Tyrion at least has risked his own life to help others on occasion.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Frankly, not the tiniest little bit.

“They plotted it together,” she said, this girl he’d loved. “The Imp and Lady Sansa plotted it after the Young Wolf died. Sansa wanted revenge for her brother and Tyrion meant to have the throne. He was going to kill his sister next, and then his own lord father, so he could be Hand for Prince Tommen. But after a year or so, before Tommen got too old, he would have killed him too, so as to take the crown for his own head.”
“How could you know all this?” demanded Prince Oberyn. “Why would the Imp divulge such plans to his wife’s maid?”
“I overheard some, m’lord,” said Shae, “and m’lady let things slip too. But most I had from his own lips. I wasn’t only Lady Sansa’s maid. I was his whore, all the time he was here in King’s Landing. On the morning of the wedding, he dragged me down where they keep the dragon skulls and fucked me there with the monsters all around. And when I cried, he said I ought to be more grateful, that it wasn’t every girl who got to be the king’s whore. That was when he told me how he meant to be king. He said that poor boy Joffrey would never know his bride the way he was knowing me.” She started sobbing then. “I never meant to be a whore, m’lords. I was to be married. A squire, he was, and a good brave boy, gentle born. But the Imp saw me at the Green Fork and put the boy I meant to marry in the front rank of the van, and after he was killed he sent his wildlings to bring me to his tent. Shagga, the big one, and Timett with the burned eye. He said if I didn’t pleasure him, he’d give me to them, so I did. Then he brought me to the city, so I’d be close when he wanted me. He made me do such shameful things . . .”
Prince Oberyn looked curious. “What sorts of things?”
“Unspeakable things.” As the tears rolled slowly down that pretty face, no doubt every man in the hall wanted to take Shae in his arms and comfort her. “With my mouth and . . . other parts, m’lord. All my parts. He used me every way there was, and . . . he used to make me tell him how big he was. My giant, I had to call him, my giant of Lannister.”

Class act, isn't she? It's one thing to condemn two innocent people to die (Sansa had it coming, too, I guess?). Fine, let's say that's just business. But she didn't have to urinate on Tyrion's face while doing it, that was just tacky.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Definitely. Poor girl.

Nope. She should've been smart enough to get out of dodge. She wanted to be in the exciting KL and in the Red Keep and when you lose in KL, your life goes bye bye as well. The fact that she didn't understand that she couldn't have her jewels and wanted to be in the castle painter her as an idiot to me. She could've been super rich in the Free Cities but no, she wanted to screw a powerful men? The side effect of that can be pretty sucky. Ask Aegon the A-home's mistresses, some of them ended pretty badly.

Tyrion never told her that. No, he robbed her of her payment instead, leaving her with less than she started with. While abusing, hitting and threatening her.

That he intended to set her up for live is something only a mindreader could know.

On the other hand, we are never witness to her ever showing the slightest bit of empathy to another person. She insults Lollys for not shrugging off the trauma of a gang rape. She is very clearly manipulating Tyrion's emotions, and the moment he is in trouble she turns on him and twists the knife in the cruelest fashion. I strongly suspect she encouraged the singer to blackmail Tyrion and we know how that ended.

Traumatic experiences have that effect on people. She was young, female and a camp follower. Yes, she has been raped by half the army. Several times.

[LordStoneheart]

Frankly, not the tiniest little bit.

Class act, isn't she? It's one thing to condemn two innocent people to die (Sansa had it coming, too, I guess?). Fine, let's say that's just business. But she didn't have to urinate on Tyrion's face while doing it, that was just tacky.

The book is less clear on this but she could either have been paid to do this or been forced into it, or both. But this one (mostly) false testimony speech is nothing compared to what he put her through in the first place.