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Winterfell crypt swords have an opposite effect?


Daendrew

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It just occurred to me that the swords across the sculptures in the Winterfell crypt are in the same position as someone not offering guest right. Robb put his sword accross his legs when he refused Tyrion hospitality.


Maybe the Northern practice placing the sword accross to deny hospitality stems from magic the crypt statues hold when swords are placed in that position and the true reason was lost over time.


Maybe it's not (just) preventing spirits from coming out, but (also) preventing spirits from coming in and taking on the bones of the Starks inside, usurping the power of Stark blood/bones. They are also kingsbones for sacrifices.


Wights are basically dead bonepeople. We have seen just the chopped off hand of a wight become animated. And getting Neds bones there is made into a big deal in the series.


Just a thought. What do you think? I like the theory that the crypt is a prison. The two theories aren't mutually exclusive.


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You're right that the sword-across-the-knees symbolism is inconsistent, good catch.



That said, I am not sure where that leaves us. Wights are dead corpses, with muscles, tendons, eyes, etc. Even the most recent dead Starks are just going to be bones. We haven't seen any bone-wights or true spirits yet.


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They sure are devoted to the keeping of those corpses. Arming them all like that is sort of a clue. Then we've seen corpses attacking people. Then we remember these kingly corpses all neatly arranged in state, and wonder if maybe that crypt is a military resource for when times are really bad. But then no, they wouldn't want their kings to awaken as mindless killer things, that's undignified and they might kill kids indiscriminately or something. Then we had the Beric and Cat raisings which showed us the dead can basically remember who they were from before and act like it. So we're on track for a king parade. Now what's the event that could generate enough resurrection spark for an entire lineage?


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Maybe Robb foreshadows his own death by posing like a King in the Crypts.



In Jon's dream, the old Kings of Winter told Jon: "This is not your place."



But not all Kings have swords across their laps. Bran & Company take the swords of IIRC Ned, Grampa Rickard and Uncle Brandon. With no swords across their laps, what's to stop this recent generation of Starks from killing intruders, sending bogus ravens to the wall, or cursing Theon for a turncloak and a kinslayer.


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It's foreshadowing Robb's death. A denial of Guest rights, Robb in the same position as the Crypt statues with a sword across his lap.

I would not think think iron would keep out the bad juju, besides the first men used Bronze, like the Royces armor when they fought the Others.

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Haha, funny thing...

The King in the Crypts - what are they doing? They say the swords are to keep the spirits in their crypts. But that doesn't follow, to me. A sword across the lap is a denial of guest right. Robb does this to Tyrion when he comes back from the wall, which is what I am talking about when I talk about bread crumbs. Robb, the future King in the North, sitting in the high seat of Winterfell, lays a sword across his lap, just like the kings in the crypts. If Tyrion is a Targ (wake up and smell the coffee, folks) then Robb was even denying guest right to a dragon blooded person. Jon, a dragon person, feels the hostility of the Kings of Winter when he's down there.

I've actually seen this idea around before, that they I are denying guest right. I think it makes a lot of sense. The bit about them being hostile to dragon blooded people (fire associated) is my own idea, and it's still pretty speculative. Still, I wonder about the gargoyles on the First Keep - gargoyles are associated with warding away evil spirits. They only appear on the a First Keep and at Dragonstone and nowhere else in the seven kingdoms. Seems fairly significant. Taken with the swords across the lap, it seems like Winterfell is heavily warded. We known that Storm's End is warded, and the Wall is warded, both structures associated with Bran th Builder, as is Winterfell. What are they warding against? Melisandre's shadow babies are warded by Storms End, and the Wall blocks Coldhands at least. One wall of the First Keep was knocked over during Ramsay's burning of Winterfell, which I find odd, since Winterfell has been sacked and burned several times in history, as we learned form TWOIAF, and the First Keep has never had an problem. It's possible whatever wards are in place are now gone, and this may be the reason for the crazy snowstorm or the triggering of the final advance if the Others, etc. Not only did Ramsay break the first keep, he then married a fake a stark and declared himself the Lord of Winterfell. Man, talk about sacrilege. But breaking the first keep may have been highly significant because of those gargoyles and whatever wards were in place.

That's also when Summer saw a "dragon"....

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Haha, funny thing...

I've actually seen this idea around before, that they I are denying guest right. I think it makes a lot of sense. The bit about them being hostile to dragon blooded people (fire associated) is my own idea, and it's still pretty speculative. Still, I wonder about the gargoyles on the First Keep - gargoyles are associated with warding away evil spirits. They only appear on the a First Keep and at Dragonstone and nowhere else in the seven kingdoms. Seems fairly significant. Taken with the swords across the lap, it seems like Winterfell is heavily warded. We known that Storm's End is warded, and the Wall is warded, both structures associated with Bran th Builder, as is Winterfell. What are they warding against? Melisandre's shadow babies are warded by Storms End, and the Wall blocks Coldhands at least. One wall of the First Keep was knocked over during Ramsay's burning of Winterfell, which I find odd, since Winterfell has been sacked and burned several times in history, as we learned form TWOIAF, and the First Keep has never had an problem. It's possible whatever wards are in place are now gone, and this may be the reason for the crazy snowstorm or the triggering of the final advance if the Others, etc. Not only did Ramsay break the first keep, he then married a fake a stark and declared himself the Lord of Winterfell. Man, talk about sacrilege. But breaking the first keep may have been highly significant because of those gargoyles and whatever wards were in place.

That's also when Summer saw a "dragon"....

Tyrion is referred to as a gargoyle. I think it is because he will be the stone dragon with greyscale.

A Bolton burned down Winterfell before.

I wonder what the symbolism of fire burning the Kings of Winter home down means.

The dragon Bran saw as Summer, was himself. The human heart in conflict with itself it the only thing worth writing. I have a write up eventually in the works. The color described everywhere was grey, like the icefyre of an ice dragon. I think he saw The IceBrandon http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30pwrt/spoilers_all_grrm_subtly_wrote_someone_has/

The trees were burning though. There may be multiple dragons, ice and fire released.

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As much as I would like for that to have been an ice dragon, the "whose roar was a river of flame" kind of rules that out. And I would say there is tons of fire imagery, and besides the comparison of ash to snow, there are no ice dragon motifs here.

The ashes fell like a soft grey snow. He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man- rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hotand rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver. Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man- claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars. All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and a crash that made the earth jump under his feet. Dogs barked and whined and horses screamed in terror. Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man- pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. No beast was as noisy as man.

I did see your Ice Brandon write up, and while there are some really good observations, I cannot agree with the conclusions, nor any variants of the "Brantichrist idea." Bran and Bloodraven are serving the ends of the cotf, who represent earth ("those who sing the song of earth"), the balancing element between ice and fire (or wind and sea). Thus I think if there is a "good guy," that is, someone who champions the survival of life and fights to achieve balance between the forces, it is Bloodraven and now Bran. At least that's my opinion.

The write up was good, and as I said I was really impressed with some of the connections you made. I think you've got a lot of really creative ideas, but some of them could use more text corroboration. But you're not afraid to draw conclusions, I'll give you that. We can't figure anything out unless we use a little creativity - we're trying to trace the footsteps of a creative genius with a fiendish love of puzzles and secrets.

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There's no "position" of a sword that supposed to express denial of the guest right. It's just a very natural convention: an ostensibly naked blade means "you're not welcome here".

When Tyrion met with Robb in the Great Hall, his sword was unsheathed and across his knees. It was definitely known to be a hostile position.

Ned himself notices that some of the swords have rusted away to nothing and wonders if that means their spirits are wandering around Winterfell. It clearly bothers him as the old Kings and Lords of the North were hard men. I am still wondering what the effect of the swords that were taken by Bran and Osha ad Meera and Hodor will fit in this storyline. I'm sure they will somewhere.

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It's foreshadowing Robb's death. A denial of Guest rights, Robb in the same position as the Crypt statues with a sword across his lap.

I would not think think iron would keep out the bad juju, besides the first men used Bronze, like the Royces armor when they fought the Others.

I can't agree with this. Guest right does not apply unless you have had bread and salt at least. Nothing of the sort was offered to Tyrion, so guest right did not apply. After he saw the plans for Bran's saddle, he changed his mind and offered the hospitality of Winterfell. Tyrion refused it.

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Right, he went from denying guest right and having a sword across his lap to giving him guest right and.. he put the sword away at that point, right? That kind of jibes with the idea that the sword is symbolic of denial of hospitality, which in itself is an implied threat.


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Right, he went from denying guest right and having a sword across his lap to giving him guest right and.. he put the sword away at that point, right? That kind of jibes with the idea that the sword is symbolic of denial of hospitality, which in itself is an implied threat.

That is what I said. The part where after he saw the plans for Bran's saddle he offered him the hospitality of Winterfell? However, guest right still did not apply as Tyrion refused it and did not take any bread or salt, nor was he offered any.

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Haha, funny thing...

I've actually seen this idea around before, that they I are denying guest right. I think it makes a lot of sense. The bit about them being hostile to dragon blooded people (fire associated) is my own idea, and it's still pretty speculative. Still, I wonder about the gargoyles on the First Keep - gargoyles are associated with warding away evil spirits. They only appear on the a First Keep and at Dragonstone and nowhere else in the seven kingdoms. Seems fairly significant. Taken with the swords across the lap, it seems like Winterfell is heavily warded. We known that Storm's End is warded, and the Wall is warded, both structures associated with Bran th Builder, as is Winterfell. What are they warding against? Melisandre's shadow babies are warded by Storms End, and the Wall blocks Coldhands at least. One wall of the First Keep was knocked over during Ramsay's burning of Winterfell, which I find odd, since Winterfell has been sacked and burned several times in history, as we learned form TWOIAF, and the First Keep has never had an problem. It's possible whatever wards are in place are now gone, and this may be the reason for the crazy snowstorm or the triggering of the final advance if the Others, etc. Not only did Ramsay break the first keep, he then married a fake a stark and declared himself the Lord of Winterfell. Man, talk about sacrilege. But breaking the first keep may have been highly significant because of those gargoyles and whatever wards were in place.

That's also when Summer saw a "dragon"....

Not only dragon blooded people but Bran was also wroth to see that Rickon took the Freys to the crypts.

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It just occurred to me that the swords across the sculptures in the Winterfell crypt are in the same position as someone not offering guest right. Robb put his sword accross his legs when he refused Tyrion hospitality.

Maybe the Northern practice placing the sword accross to deny hospitality stems from magic the crypt statues hold when swords are placed in that position and the true reason was lost over time.

Maybe it's not (just) preventing spirits from coming out, but (also) preventing spirits from coming in and taking on the bones of the Starks inside, usurping the power of Stark blood/bones. They are also kingsbones for sacrifices.

Wights are basically dead bonepeople. We have seen just the chopped off hand of a wight become animated. And getting Neds bones there is made into a big deal in the series.

Just a thought. What do you think? I like the theory that the crypt is a prison. The two theories aren't mutually exclusive.

Very nice observation

There is something funky going on, eg most people in the north know to burn bodies but they make a point of first having barrow kings but then there is a massive crypt

Think you might be right, has to do with preventing them being Wighted, have to remember it's mostly the Kings/Lords who had statues built, with Lyanna etc being the exception (though if Rickard died before Brandon then Brandon for a few minutes would have been Lord of Winterfell in the Throne Room

Probably ties in with the deep relationship the Starks have with the White Walkers/Army of Others

Watch this space regarding the Barbrey Dustin arc

Which was the sword Hodor took, it was near the entrance wasn't it?

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Maybe Robb foreshadows his own death by posing like a King in the Crypts.

In Jon's dream, the old Kings of Winter told Jon: "This is not your place."

But not all Kings have swords across their laps. Bran & Company take the swords of IIRC Ned, Grampa Rickard and Uncle Brandon. With no swords across their laps, what's to stop this recent generation of Starks from killing intruders, sending bogus ravens to the wall, or cursing Theon for a turncloak and a kinslayer.

Tyrion is referred to as a gargoyle. I think it is because he will be the stone dragon with greyscale.

A Bolton burned down Winterfell before.

I wonder what the symbolism of fire burning the Kings of Winter home down means.

The dragon Bran saw as Summer, was himself. The human heart in conflict with itself it the only thing worth writing. I have a write up eventually in the works. The color described everywhere was grey, like the icefyre of an ice dragon. I think he saw The IceBrandon http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30pwrt/spoilers_all_grrm_subtly_wrote_someone_has/

The trees were burning though. There may be multiple dragons, ice and fire released.

As much as I would like for that to have been an ice dragon, the "whose roar was a river of flame" kind of rules that out. And I would say there is tons of fire imagery, and besides the comparison of ash to snow, there are no ice dragon motifs here.

I did see your Ice Brandon write up, and while there are some really good observations, I cannot agree with the conclusions, nor any variants of the "Brantichrist idea." Bran and Bloodraven are serving the ends of the cotf, who represent earth ("those who sing the song of earth"), the balancing element between ice and fire (or wind and sea). Thus I think if there is a "good guy," that is, someone who champions the survival of life and fights to achieve balance between the forces, it is Bloodraven and now Bran. At least that's my opinion.

The write up was good, and as I said I was really impressed with some of the connections you made. I think you've got a lot of really creative ideas, but some of them could use more text corroboration. But you're not afraid to draw conclusions, I'll give you that. We can't figure anything out unless we use a little creativity - we're trying to trace the footsteps of a creative genius with a fiendish love of puzzles and secrets.

Jon Snow is the Dragon of Winterfell that is being woken, this passage IMO is a foreshadowing that Ramsays actions wake the Dragon of Winterfell

The Crypt Kings are telling him he doesen't belong because he also has the blood of the deep east and the Dragon within him as well as Ice

We see this articulate itself in ADwD, the idea of Arya in trouble slowly gets Jon on edge, first he comes across Alys Karstark etc but then by the time of the Pink Letter which is based around the idea of Arya in peril at the hands of "Ramsay" - though I think Mance wrote it (read AGoT closely, Jon and Arya are in love with eachother and GRRM is persisting with it despite the lack of 5-year gap) basically "wakes the Dragon" within Jon and he symbolically throws aside his NW vows to mount a rescue mission. This is a major point of Jon moving towards claiming his real identity

The fact he then goes into Ghost is significant, we have to think about Varymyrs line "Jon Snow could have lived like a King" (in Ghost). This holds for Jon literally if it weren't for his NW vows but that has been voided now that the life those vows related to has been ended, notably with smoking Dragon blood in the (Jon) Snow

Point is from a certain perspective Jon running around north of the Wall in Ghost means he is "King Beyond the Wall" in a sense, he will learn his real heritage and when he comes back he will be King Jon Stark first and then evolve into Jon Stark-Targaryen

Putting aside Arya becoming Queen and killing off the Nights Watch out of revenge, this actually ties me back to the crypts, Rattleshirt being burned as Mance is rife with symbolism, the glamouring seems corny but one has to understand these as significant, eg Mance is Lord of Bones now too, and he is now messing around in the Crypts looking for the Horn of Joramun, I had wondered if this meant he led an undead Wight Army it seems he may have a major role in waking whatever power is down there and wielding it, eg we've heard theories about the Giants being warged.

Watch this space regarding Mance, I'm still thinking about it, the fact he went from NW to Wildling over a cloak is a reference to turncloak, but the wearing the five skins of the Washerwomen may be a cryptic reference to Skin-changing of some kind (perhaps into Wun Wun?) - worth considering - I reckon Mance wrote pink letter

Grand scheme of things I expect Jon to be in the "Christ" position of balancing everything, his arc is deeply embedded in it, eg Nights Watch/Wildings, Mel/Val - or R'hlorrists/Old Gods, Stark/Targaryen, Ice/Fire and in time he will involve makeing peace at the very very end life/death and/or Night's King/Dany. Bran (Ice) and Bloodraven (Dragon) are a good case of the CoTF putting Ice and Fire magic into the Earth/Weirnet system to some end, and they are interesting in being the Earth point of Ice and Fire, so there is some synthesis occurring, but ultimately they are still relevant to an "Old Gods" faction as distinct from Drowned, Storm etc etc

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