Tywin's hostage negotiating skills

[James Steller]

This isn't about his son being held captive; rather it's about the capture of Lord Walderran Tarbeck prior to the famous rebellion in the Westerlands.

As it's been recorded, Walderran Tarbeck rode to Casterly Rock to intimidate Tytos Lannister, only to be captured by his heir, Tywin, for disobedience. Tarbeck's wife captures three Lannisters in response, including a young Stafford Lannister. She threatens to hurt them, even kill them, if her husband is not released. Tytos ignores Tywin's suggestion that Lord Tarbeck is sent back in three pieces, one for each hostage, and releases him with his debts forgiven.

Now, obviously Tytos was a door mat in this scenario, but there's no denying that Tywin was a complete sociopath.

Send Lord Tarbeck home in three pieces to the woman who's holding three of your relatives hostage?

Was Tywin truly so ready to write those Lannisters off? One of them was his cousin, and his future brother-in-law. What would that wedding night have been like? Hell, would that wedding have happened if Tywin had gotten his way and the head of Joanna's brother was returned to Casterly Rock?

And what would that have led to? The Reynes and Tarbecks declaring defiance early, mustering their full forces in time to meet Tywin's army. Tywin's success was largely due to his enemies' unpreparedness and underestimating him. Well, they certainly wouldn't underestimate him after such a brutal response, and they'd know to start preparing their forces immediately and prepare for a fight.

Maybe Tywin figured that they'd be so appalled that they'd surrender rather than call his bluff, but based on the fame of Lord Reyne's war prowess and the Tarbecks' daring, plus the example of how they behaved later, I doubt that Tywin would have done anything other than escalate things to the point that the rebellion becomes even bloodier.

[EastTymor]

I think that it is worth considering whether Tywin's stated position was actually the one he preferred. It is entirely possible that he knew such a plan would backfire, and only proposed it because he knew Tytos would not agree. However, by staking out a position so far into psychopath territory, he may have been able to shift the Overton window and convince Tytos to take a slightly more hawkish / anti-Tarbeck / pro-Lannister position than he otherwise would have.

[James Steller]

I think that it is worth considering whether Tywin's stated position was actually the one he preferred. It is entirely possible that he knew such a plan would backfire, and only proposed it because he knew Tytos would not agree. However, by staking out a position so far into psychopath territory, he may have been able to shift the Overton window and convince Tytos to take a slightly more hawkish / anti-Tarbeck / pro-Lannister position than he otherwise would have.

I'm pretty sure that Tywin was fully prepared to do what he suggested. He has no qualms about ordering the Targaryens to be slaughtered, the entire households of Reyne and Tarbeck put to the sword, and the Starks to be massacred at a wedding. He even sits back to watch his hated son be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

[EastTymor]

I'm pretty sure that Tywin was fully prepared to do what he suggested. He has no qualms about ordering the Targaryens to be slaughtered, the entire households of Reyne and Tarbeck put to the sword, and the Starks to be massacred at a wedding. He even sits back to watch his hated son be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

Note that slaughtering the Targaryens, Reynes, Tarbecks, and Starks worked out wonderfully for Tywin. 4/5 ain't bad.

[James Steller]

I'd say 3 out of 5. The Starks and their allies haven't lost yet, and I bet we'll see them exact a truly terrible revenge before this story is done.

But even if he did profit from all that, it doesn't make me despise him less.

[Boarsbane]

If the other Lannisters were as stupid as Stafford was he probably figured they'd be well rid of them. In reality he probably didn't actually want Tytos to do what he asked, knowing full well Tytos wouldn't but it made his views on the situation known. It was time to stop caving to his bannermen.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm pretty sure that Tywin was fully prepared to do what he suggested. He has no qualms about ordering the Targaryens to be slaughtered, the entire households of Reyne and Tarbeck put to the sword, and the Starks to be massacred at a wedding. He even sits back to watch his hated son be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

That wasn't the point of what Ser MerrynTrump was saying. Obviously Tywin is willing to be brutal, but he knew his father wasn't. So the suggestion was meant to push Tytos to a slightly harder position than normal

[Balerion the kitten]

He probably knew his dad would say no, seeing as he was a massive people pleaser, but he would have been serious when he said "three pieces". Probably the only reason he said/wanted this was to separate himself from his dad and make the Lannister name a more brutal, scary one.

Sure it would mean war in westerlands but the Lannisters would come out on top. If he was sent back into 3 pieces there would have been no peace between the two, tytos couldn't resolve it and it would mean war. If it came to war, he'd be in charge and could be as bloody and brutal as he wanted. By doing this it would give him a chance to prove the Lannisters were powerful and not to be taken as a joke.

War was exactly what Tywin wanted.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

meh

You dont negotiate with terrorists. The Tarbecks and Reynes had already killed Tywins grandfather and Tytos simply forgave them. They stole land from other Westerland lords and Tytos did nothing, they borrowed from the Rock and refused to pay it back and they constantly mocked and encouraged dissension among the Lannister vassals.

Tywin wanted a harsher punishment. The Lannisters are the Overlords of the West, if Warbeck is imprisoned for stealing other Lords lands then you simply cant arrest three Lannisters in retaliation and expect to get away with it.

Had Tytos asserted his authority sooner then both Reynes and Tarbecks would not have thought they could have gotten away with so much and events would have been calmed down.

[Grissom]

Maybe he wasn't that smart when he was younger. Sending Lord Tarbeck in 3 pieces would only lead into more lannisters dying. There is no way that can be seen as a smart move.

[EastTymor]

I'd say 3 out of 5. The Starks and their allies haven't lost yet, and I bet we'll see them exact a truly terrible revenge before this story is done.

But even if he did profit from all that, it doesn't make me despise him less.

The Starks can't get vengeance on Tywin (thanks Tyrion!). Hence, 4/5.

[John Doe]

I'd say 3 out of 5. The Starks and their allies haven't lost yet, and I bet we'll see them exact a truly terrible revenge before this story is done.

They hated him before the RW, so 4/5. Better than most.

[Ser Patroclo]

my 2 cents:

1. This is the tale as is being told, it is not necessarily the case that Tywin said those words. The tale itself serves him to appear brutal and to inspire fear into the people listening it.

2. Many politicians in the opposition, who are not eligible to rule now nor in the near future, like to boast claims that meet the 'darkest' wishes of the gullible mass. It's a way to collect consensus, even if when the politician actually comes to power he usually 'reinterprets' such drastic claims in way more considerate and thought actions. So, saying something doesn't truly signify 'meaning it'

Bonus:

I disagree with the hypothesis that Tywyin was trying to manipulate his father, pushing him into not taking a gullible decision. I explain:

1. Titos *did* take the most gullible decision, I can hardly imagine one sillier than freeing a man and erasing his debt

2. If you want to push people toward your direction, you actually never take the 'extremist' position, but try to conciliate, to be diplomatic.. to close the gap among you and the target guy, so that he can actually understand your position, meaning that he will at least consider it, and you will make it appear to him that it is 'little effort' for him to come into your direction by half a step. Doing what Tywin did is the exact right way to push someone in the exact opposite direction, which might explain why Titos did take such a gullible decision in such a short time.

[lyannaisalive]

The Starks can't get vengeance on Tywin (thanks Tyrion!). Hence, 4/5.

Tywins treasured his legacy, the Starks cans till destroy his family thus ending his line and legacy. I think that is an important thing to remember

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywins treasured his legacy, the Starks cans till destroy his family thus ending his line and legacy. I think that is an important thing to remember

Other people are going to do that, for their own reasons, before the Starks even get a chance. The Greyjoys, the Targaryens, and the Faith Militant are all much bigger threats than the Starks

The idea that a resurgent House Stark will take bloody vengeance on the Lannisters is just wishful thinking

[lyannaisalive]

Other people are going to do that, for their own reasons, before the Starks even get a chance. The Greyjoys, the Targaryens, and the Faith Militant are all much bigger threats than the Starks

The idea that a resurgent House Stark will take bloody vengeance on the Lannisters is just wishful thinking

I dont think its wishful thinking. the Stark children have the potential to be an extremely powerful force. Jon has a wilding army and is a proven battle commander not to mention his blood likely gives him a better claim to the IT (not saying he will get it but its still a threat). Sansa is learning the game from the best player and might soon have the most intact army in westeros at her disposal. Arya is to far away to do anything imo (although the fact that there will be a ship returning to kings landing form where she is will be interesting) and Bran is on a whole different level. Add that they some have warging abilities (dragons anyone) the Starks are very much in the game and will do some damage.

[EastTymor]

I dont think its wishfyl thinking. the Stark children have the potential to be the most deadly force on earth. Jon has a wilding army and is a proven battle commander not to mention his blood likely gives him a better claim to the IT (not saying he will get it but its still a threat). Sansa is learning the game from the best player and might soon have the most intact army in the Vale at her disposal. Arya is to far away to do anything imo (although the fact that there will be a ship returning to kings landing form where she is will be interesting) and Bran is on a whole different level. Add that they some have warging abilities (dragons anyone) the Starks are very much in the game and will do some damage.

We'll see how it plays out, hopefully within the decade. I am not sure why you think the Starks are more likely to be able to seriously threaten Lannister power after they lose their main army than they were when they still had it.

For now, I'm counting the Red Wedding as a victory for Tywin and a loss for the Starks.

[lyannaisalive]

We'll see how it plays out, hopefully within the decade. I am not sure why you think the Starks are more likely to be able to seriously threaten Lannister power after they lose their main army than they were when they still had it.

For now, I'm counting the Red Wedding as a victory for Tywin and a loss for the Starks.

I didnt say they wwere more likely i said they can. Aegon or even the Tyrells or more likely but the Starks still have power

[John Doe]

When the Others invade the northeners will be the first people dying. There won't b vengeance on Tywin. Tywin owned them.