Something odd about the PW

[plectrum]

I apologize if anyone has already posted a topic on this exact subject, but I've only just joined the forum.

In CoK, Dontos gives Sansa the hairnet shortly after the battle of Blackwater Bay. Later in the books, it's strongly hinted that Lady O is involved in the plot to murder Joffrey, along with Littlefinger.

However, the Tyrells have no reason whatsoever to want Joffrey dead at that particular point in time. Littlefinger came to them proposing to make their daughter a queen, which is a pretty big thing for any family. I could maybe see the argument that LF was trying to make the PW happen for reasons all his own, but there's no way they'd play along unless it was in their interest as well. I don't see a percentage in it for them to kill the king. I suppose one could argue that LF told them that Joffrey was a psychopath and that a match with Tommen was a better idea. But if that's true and they'd committed to murdering Joff, what was the point of Lady O's meeting with Sansa? It served no purpose and opens them up to the possibility that Sansa might sell them out sometime down the line (she's now aware that they knew what Joffrey was, and they were worried about it).

Has anyone else ever riddled out exactly why they made the decision as early as they did? If I'm not misreading something here, it seems like they were bent on regicide before the Bitterbridge meeting was concluded. That seems really early to make a choice that big.

Incidentally, I have no alternate explanation, and it's not really even my intent to challenge the canon around the PW. I just never understood it.

Finally, hi all!

[cassidyaj]

I think Petyr put it out when he was visiting the Tyrells that Jeff was a monster and Sansa confirmed it when she met with Maergery and Olenna and the other Tyrell ladies. Petyr may have felt that it was a good way to keep the realm at war with itself (by creating more chaos) and to steal Sansa away. Olenna and others may have seen that they didn't need Joff to make Maergey a queen if they could get to Tommen who was much nicer and still too young to consummate if they needed to switch alliances.

ETA: just wanted to make sure not to spoil it if you haven't read that far yet.

[FCOS]

I think Petyr put it out when he was visiting the Tyrells that Jeff was a monster and Sansa confirmed it when she met with Maergery and Olenna and the other Tyrell ladies. Petyr may have felt that it was a good way to keep the realm at war with itself (by creating more chaos) and to steal Sansa away. Olenna and others may have seen that they didn't need Joff to make Maergey a queen if they could get to Tommen who was much nicer and still too young to consummate if they needed to switch alliances.

ETA: just wanted to make sure not to spoil it if you haven't read that far yet.

:agree:

At that stage everybody knew what sort of a person Joff was.... Also the Tyrells seem to be vying for the position of most powerful house, so it's plausible that they only agreed to marry because they knew they could just kill Joff and rule through Tommen, who as nice as he is, is to gullible, and will just become a puppet.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

If I remember well, then before Stannis' attack on King's Landing Littlefinger volunteered to go to the Reach to ask the Tyrells' help and in order he got Harrenhal. When he was asked about Joffrey in Highgarden he told only good things about him, but ordered his guards to tell the truth about Joffrey when they are asked about him. The Tyrells, especially Lady Olenna thought it's weird so he talked with Littlefinger in private and they decided to kill Joffrey, coz he's a monster.

So Olenna put poison into the hairnet, Littlefinger gave it to Sansa through Dontos, Littlefinger ordered dwarves to perform a scene at the wedding, Olenna put the poison from the hairnet into the wine and Joff died.

[plectrum]

If I remember well, then before Stannis' attack on King's Landing Littlefinger volunteered to go to the Reach to ask the Tyrells' help and in order he got Harrenhal. When he was asked about Joffrey in Highgarden he told only good things about him, but ordered his guards to tell the truth about Joffrey when they are asked about him. The Tyrells, especially Lady Olenna thought it's weird so he talked with Littlefinger in private and they decided to kill Joffrey, coz he's a monster.

So Olenna put poison into the hairnet, Littlefinger gave it to Sansa through Dontos, Littlefinger ordered dwarves to perform a scene at the wedding, Olenna put the poison from the hairnet into the wine and Joff died.

Ah, the bit about the guards I must have forgotten (this is my first re-read, and frankly my first reading was really hasty). That makes sense. I guess I just don't see the point of the meeting with Sansa then. It was one of the first things the Tyrells did after Margaery's arrival.

Unless it was to earn her trust so that they might retrieve the poison more easily at the wedding.

[eyenon15]

I think it was nothing more than Tyrell women not wanting Marg to be abused by a maniac. I think they just threw Sansa under the bus, if the plan got foiled then the evidence would be on Sansa.

[Hugorfonics]

Ah, the bit about the guards I must have forgotten (this is my first re-read, and frankly my first reading was really hasty). That makes sense. I guess I just don't see the point of the meeting with Sansa then. It was one of the first things the Tyrells did after Margaery's arrival.

Unless it was to earn her trust so that they might retrieve the poison more easily at the wedding.

The world revolves around Sansa. Olenna wants Sansa, it was probably agreed to by Petyr before blackwater. I believe Olenna wanted tyrion dead, not Joffrey. I also believe Petyrs a liar. Here was my post http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126030-target-tyrion/

[bent branch]

The reason this is seems wrong is because the Tyrells actually had nothing to do with poisoning Joffrey. It was Sansa herself that put the poison in the chalice. This is a deeply unpopular conclusion, but it is the only answer that fits with all the clues we are given in the books. The only reason most readers don't think it was Sansa is because Sansa doesn't seem to remember doing it and LF pointing out that the Tyrells might have a motive for doing this. Everything else points to Sansa.

[Grissom]

The reason this is seems wrong is because the Tyrells actually had nothing to do with poisoning Joffrey. It was Sansa herself that put the poison in the chalice. This is a deeply unpopular conclusion, but it is the only answer that fits with all the clues we are given in the books. The only reason most readers don't think it was Sansa is because Sansa doesn't seem to remember doing it and LF pointing out that the Tyrells might have a motive for doing this. Everything else points to Sansa.

Sansa didn't do it, what you're saying makes no sense.

[LordStoneheart]

The reason this is seems wrong is because the Tyrells actually had nothing to do with poisoning Joffrey. It was Sansa herself that put the poison in the chalice. This is a deeply unpopular conclusion, but it is the only answer that fits with all the clues we are given in the books. The only reason most readers don't think it was Sansa is because Sansa doesn't seem to remember doing it and LF pointing out that the Tyrells might have a motive for doing this. Everything else points to Sansa.

Nothing points to Sansa, especially since the author has said it was Olenna and Littlefinger.

[Chilli]

Did the author really say it was Olenna and Littlefinger? I thought he said something else, like there's something we don't know yet and is going to be revealed in the next book. But I can't remember the exact quote.

[chrisdaw]

There was a plot between LF and Olenna to poison Joffrey. LF states Olenna's motivation and there's no reason to doubt it. Olenna is an isolationist and is actively against Margaery being queen, Mace is the only ambitious Tyrell (besides Loras' ambition for his lover). But Olenna's motivation isn't to prevent Margaery being queen, she's resigned to having lost Margaery to Queenhood, it's specifically to protect her from Joffrey.

That the LF/Olenna plot was successful and it was her poison that killed Joffrey is an assumption.

[anonnyscouse]

The reason this is seems wrong is because the Tyrells actually had nothing to do with poisoning Joffrey. It was Sansa herself that put the poison in the chalice. This is a deeply unpopular conclusion, but it is the only answer that fits with all the clues we are given in the books. The only reason most readers don't think it was Sansa is because Sansa doesn't seem to remember doing it and LF pointing out that the Tyrells might have a motive for doing this. Everything else points to Sansa.

But Sansa wears the hairnet without knowing why, LF would never have risked telling Dontos the specifics of the plan, so how would Sansa have known the hairnet had poison in it?

[jet199]

For the Sansa theory to work you have to assume that she is a really unreliable narrator and all references to the murder plot have gone into her selective memory.

[WSmith84]

Didn't they just speak to Sansa to get confirmation that Joffrey was a psychotic little shit? LF praised Joffrey to the skies, but had the soldiers and servants spread rumours of Joffrey being a monster. Then he got a singer to sing about the valor of the KG and Mace Tyrell insisted that Loras must become a KG, to protect his daughter. But Olenna knew that if Joffrey didn't restrain himself, Loras might end up killing Joffrey. And so she decided to assassinate him. But first she needed confirmation of the truth. Rumours and stories are not always accurate, so she went to the one person who could verify them: Sansa.

[Archmaester_Aemma]

OP, I don't know where you are on your re-read: I think most of the LF reveals come after Sansa has arrived in the Vale. And most of the reveals about plot intricacies tend to come a couple of lines of text/a small paragraph (although I don't know in this particular case).

[Isobel Harper]

The world revolves around Sansa. Olenna wants Sansa, it was probably agreed to by Petyr before blackwater. I believe Olenna wanted tyrion dead, not Joffrey. I also believe Petyrs a liar. Here was my post http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126030-target-tyrion/

This! I'm glad I'm not the only one who believes that Tyrion was the intended target.

[The Dames do Moan]

Ah, the bit about the guards I must have forgotten (this is my first re-read, and frankly my first reading was really hasty). That makes sense. I guess I just don't see the point of the meeting with Sansa then. It was one of the first things the Tyrells did after Margaery's arrival.

Unless it was to earn her trust so that they might retrieve the poison more easily at the wedding.

I think the meetings with Sansa weren't really about Joffrey at all. They may have asked her about him to gain her trust, she opens up with them, they are nice, etc.

I think they had more to do with her being the key to the North. Once they gain her trust they can suggest the marriage proposal with Willas. For there POV they would have Garlan in the Reach, Margery on the IT and Willas in the North. They would become the most powerful family in Westeros then.

Incidentally I can't see Littlefinger offering Sansa during his brokering with the Tyrells. He had other plans for her in the Vale and was trying to get her out of KL so I don't think he wanted that.

[Giles the Wizard]

I think Olenna was trying to protect Marg from Joff (who Sansa confirms is psycho), while LF did it to plunge the court into chaos again. Tommen is kinder and easier to manipulate.

[John Suburbs]

The world revolves around Sansa. Olenna wants Sansa, it was probably agreed to by Petyr before blackwater. I believe Olenna wanted tyrion dead, not Joffrey. I also believe Petyrs a liar. Here was my post http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126030-target-tyrion/

:agree: This is the correct answer. Joffrey's death was an accident and the real target was Tyrion.

First, recognize that the poison was not in the wine, but in the pie that was set at Tyrion's place. How do we know this? Because from the Maester Cressen example, a tiny sip of poisoned wine closes off the wind pipe in about 5 seconds -- the time it took for Mel to say her one sentence about fire consuming. Joff, on the other hand, takes a big slug of wine the whole time Margy is saying something about a toast, then he taunts Tyrion a little, grabs a piece of pie and puts it in his mouth. He coughs, says its dry, and takes another slug of wine, and the rest is history. If the two scenes were played side-by-side, Cressen would be on the ground by the time Joff finished his first drink.

But even then, Joffrey is still able to talk a bit longer. What does he say? "It's the pie, kof, the pie..." So when you CSI the two poisonings, it should be abundantly clear where the poison was. Easy to slip the crystal into a piece of pie at the back of the table. Much more difficult, and risky, even for Garlen, to drop it into a three-foot chalice that is front and center on the table for all to see.

So why Tyrion? For Littlefinger, it's because the former Hand and current Master of Coin is getting dangerously close to unravelling all of his dealings with the crown's gold, and quite possibly that a good chunk of the debt owed to the Iron Bank is sitting in LF's account at that same bank. For Lady O, it's because if Tyrion has just one drunken tumble with Sansa and produces the next heir to Winterfell, then mad dog Tywin Lannister -- the guy who doesn't just invade your lands but burns them to the ground -- would control more than half the kingdom, and his seat is directly north of the Reach.

For Lady O, dead Joffrey is the last thing you want because it pushes back the possibility of a Tyrell heir to the IT at least five years.