Wavey Sauce Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 There was obviously many things Robb did to piss Roose off. Where Roose started to feel that he was going to lose them the war where they all end up dead. I know there was a few things that must have got Rooses clock turning. But I cant remember if there was anything in specific where it laid it flat out as the straw that broke the camels back. Was it when he chose to marry Jeyne and not Ros Frey? I think that before that for sure Roose was probably pissed and maybe waiting for a chance to jump ship and benefit himself. Just cant remember if he started to plot before that out of spite. Cause I do think at the very start he was loyal to the cause and then switched over time. But I mean in the past he fought in roberts Rebellion and was loyal. But in Robb Starks war even before Robb started to mess up big, Roose seemed to be not taking any risks with his soldiers, he seemed to be only protecting his own cause and worrying about himself, like the Fork battles etc. He was always keeping his personal force in reserve, thats why when the war was over and where he is at now he took very minimum casualties. So maybe from the start he wasnt that loyal? Unless I am mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Moldor Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 The battle of the blackwater and the tyrells joining the lannisters. As far as he saw, practically everything was going wrong for Robb at that point. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I think your looking at this wrong. I don't think it is what made Roose pissed off, I think it is what made Roose think he could get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Umber Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Roose was just waiting for opportunities. He was only loyal as long as he had to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dames do Moan Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Wasn't there battle early on where Roose was commanding but lost a lot of men but himself managed to flee? Or am I mixing that up with him sending the folks to Duskendale which I think was intentionally terrible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 ^ The very first battle where Roose was the commander he kept all his own men back, and imo intentionally made Manderlys son the only knight on the right flank, the flank against Tyrion, as we get from his POV that Manderlys son was the only knight over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Roose was either planning to betray the Starks since day one or was incredibly stupid for a man of his reputation. Robb Stark didn't command to engage Tywin in open battle (or did he?), he was to derail him, wasn't he? But he wasted thousands of northeners in a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Roose was either planning to betray the Starks since day one or was incredibly stupid for a man of his reputation. Robb Stark didn't command to engage Tywin in open battle (or was he?), he was to derail him, wasn't he? But he wasted thousands of northeners in a battle. His plan was to send Greatjon with the infantry to "smash Lord Tywin". He only ever changed commanders, not battle plans (unless I missed something). So it's likely that Roose was just acting under orders. GRRM himself said that Roose wasn't a traitor at this point, he was just hedging his bets. If, by some miracle, this works, he's the hero of the North. If it doesn't, he can pull back with relatively few casualties, and all of his own men intact. And hey, his rivals just suffered tons of losses, so more influence for him. "Which force would you command?" "The horse" he answered at once. "And the other?" "The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I'd give him the honor." It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known." Robb grinned. "Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?" Your father is not fearless," Catelyn pointed out. "He is brave, but that is very different." Her son considered that for a moment. "The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell," he said thoughtfully. "Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don't want someone fearless, do I?" "No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage." "Roose Bolton," Robb said at once. "That man scares me." "Then let us pray he will scare Tywin Lannister as well." Robb nodded and rolled up the map. "I'll give the commands, and assemble an escort to take you home to Winterfell." Hmmmm... maybe Robb should have ran this plan by his actual generals, rather than relying on the advice of his mother who has no martial education and continually shows herself to be ignorant in such matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Roose was just waiting for opportunities. He was only loyal as long as he had to be. Yeh, I suspect all Bolton Lords have done the exact same thing. Just waiting for an opportunity to stick it to those uppity Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 His plan was to send Greatjon with the infantry to "smash Lord Tywin". He only ever changed commanders, not battle plans. So it's likely that Roose was just acting under orders. GRRM himself said that Roose wasn't a traitor at this point, he was just hedging his bets. If, by some miracle, this works, he's the hero of the North. If it doesn't, he can pull back with relatively few casualties, and all of his own men intact. And hey, his rivals just suffered tons of losses, so more influence for him. Oh, I guess you're right. Nevermind then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Wasn't there battle early on where Roose was commanding but lost a lot of men but himself managed to flee? Or am I mixing that up with him sending the folks to Duskendale which I think was intentionally terrible? Yea I am pretty sure at the Fork battle he kept all his own force in reserve and sent out all the other soldiers, and has had no problem sending others on suicide missions. As long as he was keeping his own strength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Yeh, I suspect all Bolton Lords have done the exact same thing. Just waiting for an opportunity to stick it to those uppity Starks. He fought in Roberts Rebellion almost right next to Ned though. He seemed to be really down for the north cause but hated how Robb would ignore his advice every single time. But when Robb pissed off the Freys and with Roose having Jaime as a captive I think he saw the chance to get out of the war, become warden of the north, and not risk any losses. I just dont know how into the cause he was before that point (like around Jaimes capture, with Vargo Hoat etc, Vargo knew that Roose was maybe going to hear Tywins offer and switch sides, that is why he chopped off Jaimes hand, because the Brave Companions switched sides on Tywin as is, so he didnt want Roose teaming with him). Him not sending his own forces into battles etc, tells me he either didnt trust Robb and their cause that they could win the war and wanted to play it safe, or if he was looking for a better end result for himself only from the start of the war. If he stuck with Robb from day 1 and they win the war, what does Roose get out of it? Robb would be King/Warden of the North. What would Roose get that he doesnt already have, he would just lose soldiers and put himself in danger. Thats the way he looks at things, he only even went because the banners were called and he had no choice, but soon as he thought he could better his position I dont think he cared who got screwed over. Even his only remaining son was expendable to him (bastard or not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Seems like the work of Mirri Maz Duur to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pashernate Reader Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I agree with the first reply. It was all over but the crying after the Battle of the Blackwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Yeh, I suspect all Bolton Lords have done the exact same thing. Just waiting for an opportunity to stick it to those uppity Starks. I wish we had some info on the Bolton family tree. Or some info on at least a few of them and what they have done in past wars and past events. Cause on the little bits we do know they for sure are as interesting as heck. We know the dread fort once held out a siege against the Starks for a little over 2 years. And we know their big flayed man tradition with their banners and their torture methods etc. I mean for the motto "Our blades are sharp" and a common saying of " A Naked man holds few secrets, a flayed man none". I would really like to know more of their history or at least a family tree with a little bit of info. Its the family tree and lack of information that has the people who support the "Bolt=On" theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 He had no reason to turn traitor while Robb was winning. After Blackwater, he has nothing to win, and a lot to lose, so when Tywin offers him goodies, he goes for it. I think it's a practical, cold decision, and has nothing to do with family history or personal enmity.Roose's leeches sucked "feelings" out of him years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangII Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I wish we had some info on the Bolton family tree. Or some info on at least a few of them and what they have done in past wars and past events. Cause on the little bits we do know they for sure are as interesting as heck. We know the dread fort once held out a siege against the Starks for a little over 2 years. And we know their big flayed man tradition with their banners and their torture methods etc. I mean for the motto "Our blades are sharp" and a common saying of " A Naked man holds few secrets, a flayed man none". I would really like to know more of their history or at least a family tree with a little bit of info. Its the family tree and lack of information that has the people who support the "Bolt=On" theory I read somewhere in this forum the theory that the Boltons started their particular flaying practice in the old days when they fought the Kings of Winter (Starks), as an attempt to gain his warging powers. "Get into their skin". They must thought the "changing skin" was related to the skin itself. I found that theory very plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I disagree with the statement that Robb pissed Roose off. He was likely only as loyal as the tide. As long as things were good he was on board. When they shifted he hedged his bets. It likely wasn't personal at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 He had no reason to turn traitor while Robb was winning. After Blackwater, he has nothing to win, and a lot to lose, so when Tywin offers him goodies, he goes for it. I think it's a practical, cold decision, and has nothing to do with family history or personal enmity.Roose's leeches sucked "feelings" out of him years ago. If Robb wins the war though what benefit does Roose get out of it? He doesnt advance in any way or anywhere. He would just be looked at as doing his duty. I am not disagreeing with you either just something that is hard not to consider Again even at the start of the war he ignored some of Robbs orders and when he went to battles he sent thousands to their deaths while his own army he would keep back in reserve and would never take any casualties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 I disagree with the statement that Robb pissed Roose off. He was likely only as loyal as the tide. As long as things were good he was on board. When they shifted he hedged his bets. It likely wasn't personal at all. Eh. Robb ignored Rooses advice every single time. Roose thought he was a little to soft from the start when he wouldnt torture prisoners. But he went against Rooses input on everything. I think Roose even brought that up, and called him ignorant and said something like "He ignored my advice at every turn, if he had been just a tad less arrogant" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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