Jon Arryn indirectly caused all of Westeros' current problems

[BericDondarrion]

When people speak of Jon Arryn, they talk about how great a man he was. And how honorable and just and respectful of a ruler he was as Lord of the Vale and the Foster father of the future two most powerful nobles in the realm. Instead of sacrificing his two foster sons to Aerys II he was willing to risk his life and openly rebel against his rightful monarch. He successfully helped take down a 283 year old dynasty and became hand of the king.

If only had it ended there. Because as hand he made the two most grave mistakes possible which are the direct cause of the war of the 5 kings and the true succession problem. His first mistake was urging Robert to marry Cersei to "ensure" political stability. I for one think that was laughable. Tywin did not deserve to ensure that his grandson one day would be the king of Westeros. He purposely sat out the Rebellion in which the whole realm bled except for his holdings in order to pick the winning side. Yes he delivered the capital and technically the king (by proxy of Jaime) to Robert, along with the killings of the royal family. But that alone in no way should have allowed Tywin the right to have his only daughter and eldest child he able to marry the new King.

Jon Arryn should have used that bargaining chip to bring to heel one of the two kingdoms who were loyal to the Targaryens and that is either a marriage to a daughter of the Reach or a daughter of Dorne. Now THAT is ensuring political stability. Not Cersei since Tywin killing the Targaryens was proof enough he was in the fold of the new king. Allowing Tywin to keep his lands and titles was enough of a reward for his "contribution" not getting the biggest prize possible.

It took years for Dorne to accept Robert and it would have been sped up if Jon brokered a marriage with a Dornish woman, or one from the reach who also stayed loyal to Aerys II. So that is blunder one.

The second blunder needs no detailed explanation or much arguing to prove. Him even hiring Littlefinger in the first place doomed so many people and practically the entire realm. Littlefinger literally got Jon himself murdered (by his own wife no less) along with his one Foster son in Ned who he risked so much to protect and indirectly his other one in Robert since Littlefinger sided with Cersei and the Lannisters. Not to mention he was the reason for the Wot5k by lying to Catelyn that the dagger belonged to Tyrion.

To make a long story short, for as great a guy Jon Arryn was, all of Westeros' problems are all because of him. Great guy but to be blunt a horrendous ruler/administrator

[tseka]

I agree on your point about Robert marrying a Tyrell or a Martell.

Marrying a Martell would have been the smarter choice- the Lannisters would have to join the new order or get crushed.

In hindsight though he didn't understand how treacherous the Lannister family & Littlefinger were though.

[The Witch King of Asshai]

I agree, he should have married a Tyrell. IIRC Mace had sisters who may or may not have been married at the time. Marrying a Martell however, would not have been a good idea, as they would never accept Robert. Nothing short of a Targ restoration would satisfy them, and they offer little in terms of power, especially compared to a Tyrell. After the Battle of the Trident, Dorne probably would have been pushed to provide 15,000 men, the Tyrell's could provide at least 3 times that and would have been far more accepting of Robert, given their royal aspirations. Tywin would never have challenged a Tyrell-Baratheon marriage alliance, especially when combined with every other LP other than Martell, and his only potential ally despises his house. He should have remained content at preserving his status, and maybe a place on the small council.

I don't think Jon was a bad ruler at all. He successfully avoided a rebellion in Dorne and handled the key negotiations, and maintained a peaceful kingdom for over a decade, despite having a lazy king and insane wife. He was just unlucky that LF was a scheming, backstabbing bastard, who played a really good long game.

[The Wolves]

I agree he did indirectly cause all of Westeros' current problems.

-Putting a man(if we can call him that)like Robert on the throne

-Making an alliance with the Lannisters and yes he should know how treacherous and evil the Lannisters were Jaime had just murdered the man he swore to protect and Tywin got into the city under treachery than sicked his monsters on a innocent woman and he babies. Who would trust the Lannisters after that.

-Littlefinger is another mistake.

Jon Arryn is the cause of a lot of problems glad he's dead.

[arek]

Littlefinger though never would have gained a position at court if it wasn't for Roberts overspending however.

Robert was draining the treasury. Jon Arryn needed a man capable of raising funds. While I have no doubt Baelish embezzled a odd bit to enrich his own personal fortunes.

Jon should have taken a firmer hand against Roberts excess spending. We see the consequences of leaders bankrupting a country in todays world.

Littlefinger wouldn't have ever have gotten a position if not for Roberts overspending.

I agree the marriage of Cersei to Robert was unnecessary. Tywin had already made a permanent enemy of House Targaryen for what he did to Elia & Rhaegars Children. A wedding of a different house would have been better option.

Though it easy to say these things with the gift of hindsight.

[Robinvanpersie]

I think a marriage to the lannisters was needed to pay debts accrued during the rebellion. pus cersei is a sexy woman, no matter how crazy she is. the tyrells have more men on the field, but are they really going to keep rebelling against the throne? No, duckies, the war was over, it was time to win the peace. and the peace is won through the bottomless gold mines of casterly rock and having relations with sexy cersei the batty.

jon arryn did the best he could with what he had at the time. he kept the illusion of barathreon superiority when they didn't have a lot of men with them. he held the kingdom together for ten years. he banged a fat lady like lysa faithfully to produce an heir to the vale. he unearthed the one man who could spun money out of gold and let him loose on the kings landing economy. it wasn't his fault that cersei was a brother-f#@ker and nutty as a museli bar. i challenge you to find one man who could've done bettter with the resources he had available.

[scotcat]

I think a marriage to the lannisters was needed to pay debts accrued during the rebellion. pus cersei is a sexy woman, no matter how crazy she is. the tyrells have more men on the field, but are they really going to keep rebelling against the throne? No, duckies, the war was over, it was time to win the peace. and the peace is won through the bottomless gold mines of casterly rock and having relations with sexy cersei the batty.

jon arryn did the best he could with what he had at the time. he kept the illusion of barathreon superiority when they didn't have a lot of men with them. he held the kingdom together for ten years. he banged a fat lady like lysa faithfully to produce an heir to the vale. he unearthed the one man who could spun money out of gold and let him loose on the kings landing economy. it wasn't his fault that cersei was a brother-f#@ker and nutty as a museli bar. i challenge you to find one man who could've done bettter with the resources he had available.

This is the way I see it as well.

[The Wolves]

I think a marriage to the lannisters was needed to pay debts accrued during the rebellion. pus cersei is a sexy woman, no matter how crazy she is. the tyrells have more men on the field, but are they really going to keep rebelling against the throne? No, duckies, the war was over, it was time to win the peace. and the peace is won through the bottomless gold mines of casterly rock and having relations with sexy cersei the batty.

jon arryn did the best he could with what he had at the time. he kept the illusion of barathreon superiority when they didn't have a lot of men with them. he held the kingdom together for ten years. he banged a fat lady like lysa faithfully to produce an heir to the vale. he unearthed the one man who could spun money out of gold and let him loose on the kings landing economy. it wasn't his fault that cersei was a brother-f#@ker and nutty as a museli bar. i challenge you to find one man who could've done bettter with the resources he had available.

The Targaryens' treasury was full so no Rohert did not need a marriage to the Lannisters to pay a debt and that's not even the reason Arryn proposed the marriage.

Stannis could have done better IMO, Jon Arryn was stupid.

[AlaynConY]

I can't agree.

The major problem in Westeros was that of a mad man ruling the kingdom. He contributed to replace that mad king with a new and strong one... who resulted in not being precisely a good king, but he wasn't a total paranoid at least.

Helping Aerys II out of the throne was definitely a good choice.

And about hiring LF, yeah, that was a poor choice, indeed... But I love that character so much that I'll forgive that one :cool4:

[hodorisfaclessman]

He did what needed to be done

Tywin if shamed and shunned by the new regime potientialy uniting casterly rock with the tyrells + possible targ sympathisers in the crownlands etc was the biggest clear and present danger to roberts new rule

By marrying robert to cersei they bring them into the fold vastly strengthening the new regime and nulifing that threat .....the follow up of marrying stannis to a florent is both an olive branch to the reach and also a veiled threat too

roberts growing debts seemed to make bringing LF in common sense, the man was no threat seemingly to anyone and had found a way to increase the revenues from gulltown .....he managed to increase the crowns incomes to slow down its inevitable crash under roberts crazy spending spree.

[Chinoiserie]

I think that if there was a available Tyrell woman she would have been the best choice. Stannis could have been married to Cersei. If he is given Storm's End I do think Tywin would have been happy with that marriage.

But Jon Arryn did mistakes mostly because he was too willing to compromise and keep the realm stable and was not the most informed person. People have flaws those are not that bad. Cerrse and Littlefinger's actions and their consequences were not really ones anyone could have foreseen even if some trouble could have been anticipated.

[Dire-Lion]

Littlefinger though never would have gained a position at court if it wasn't for Roberts overspending however.

Robert was draining the treasury. Jon Arryn needed a man capable of raising funds. While I have no doubt Baelish embezzled a odd bit to enrich his own personal fortunes.

Jon should have taken a firmer hand against Roberts excess spending. We see the consequences of leaders bankrupting a country in todays world.

I think that this is a point a lot of people forget. From what we saw of Robert and Ned's relationship, Robert may through a fit and threaten to kill you for speaking out against him, but he calms down and listens to reason after a while. I can't imagine that Robert's relationship with Jon Arryn would have been too different from his one with Ned.

[jlk7e]

He did what needed to be done

Tywin if shamed and shunned by the new regime potientialy uniting casterly rock with the tyrells + possible targ sympathisers in the crownlands etc was the biggest clear and present danger to roberts new rule

By marrying robert to cersei they bring them into the fold vastly strengthening the new regime and nulifing that threat .....the follow up of marrying stannis to a florent is both an olive branch to the reach and also a veiled threat too

roberts growing debts seemed to make bringing LF in common sense, the man was no threat seemingly to anyone and had found a way to increase the revenues from gulltown .....he managed to increase the crowns incomes to slow down its inevitable crash under roberts crazy spending spree.

There's no need to coddle Tywin, because he's basically already made it impossible for him to ever try to bring back the Targaryens by murdering Rhaegar's children.If you give him a reward, why not just let Jaime off the hook as a Kingsguard?

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

How did Jon Arryn manage to bring back the Others after thousands of years?

[Alex Storm]

He did what needed to be done

Tywin if shamed and shunned by the new regime potientialy uniting casterly rock with the tyrells + possible targ sympathisers in the crownlands etc was the biggest clear and present danger to roberts new rule

By marrying robert to cersei they bring them into the fold vastly strengthening the new regime and nulifing that threat .....the follow up of marrying stannis to a florent is both an olive branch to the reach and also a veiled threat too

roberts growing debts seemed to make bringing LF in common sense, the man was no threat seemingly to anyone and had found a way to increase the revenues from gulltown .....he managed to increase the crowns incomes to slow down its inevitable crash under roberts crazy spending spree.

Well Tywin wouldn't be able to unite with the Tyrells as they would throw in with Robert if he marries one of them and there's no chance in hell after the sack that other Targ loyalists like the Martells would unite with Tywin.

So, yea Jon Arryn screwed up by brokering the Cersei and Robert match

[Connartist92]

How did Jon Arryn manage to bring back the Others after thousands of years?

Jon Arryn is the Great Other. It is known.

[hodorisfaclessman]

There's no need to coddle Tywin, because he's basically already made it impossible for him to ever try to bring back the Targaryens by murdering Rhaegar's children.If you give him a reward, why not just let Jaime off the hook as a Kingsguard?

He could blame that all on gregor and itd be believed plus him and the tyrells combined are no joke even without a targ cause.

As long as hes out there and highgarden are out of the fold theres a dangerous possibility of them joining.

At that stage it doesnt seem like theres any free tyrells, margery wont be along for ages.

agree on jamie though its nuts it didnt happen, cersei must be the reason

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I still think that it's bullshit to say that XY caused everything. There were a lot of things which caused other which caused other etc.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Well Tywin wouldn't be able to unite with the Tyrells as they would throw in with Robert if he marries one of them and there's no chance in hell after the sack that other Targ loyalists like the Martells would unite with Tywin.

So, yea Jon Arryn screwed up by brokering the Cersei and Robert match

We dont know if any of them were free at that stage though , willas and cersei were though for sure.

The possibility of highgarden and casterly rock being united always existed until the marriage , im sure if a tyrell was free theyd have been jon aryns first pick over a lannister

the problem right after the war is a hostile but beaten for now highgarden with all its might , a grief stricken dorne and the easily offended tywin , a need for a young bride to create a dynasty and the threat of targs somewhere out there.

Jon did a reasonable job defusing all that by marrying the lannisters into the regime and personaly risking his ass going to dorne

[The Frosted King]

I thought I'd disagree, but I don't. If the Tyrells had a relative of age, it would've made infinitely more sense to Wed them to the throne.

Jon Arryn rewarding the Lannisters with the queenship was akin to Balon asking for alliance after he's already invaded the north.

Why pay for the work when they've already done it for free?

If Robert snapped the Tyrells up quickly, that alliance is stronger than the Canon one, plus at that point the Tyrells haven't outed themselves as treacherous opportunists the way the Lannisters did.

Bad call Jon, but then again, it reeks of plot rather than political savvyness.

Where was Hoster to be there voice of wisdom?